Are you engaged in the DEX race?

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

We're the big leagues, the JLA/Avengers of our universe. So we should be a comfortable cut above normals and "average" characters.

 

I think this may be key. The 'rule' of DEX should be 'how do the supers compare to normals?" If supers are just 'normals with a power schtick', the lower DEX scores are appropriate. If supers are 'better in most or all areas, plus a power schtick', then higher DEX scores are justified.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Peregrine

I think this may be key. The 'rule' of DEX should be 'how do the supers compare to normals?" If supers are just 'normals with a power schtick', the lower DEX scores are appropriate. If supers are 'better in most or all areas, plus a power schtick', then higher DEX scores are justified.

I think it is important to periodically remind the players of how good they are compared to normals, so I throw in agents and the like on a fairly regular basis. It's much easier to feel super when you remember how puny normals really are. My tiny little 4'10" (The size of a smallish 12-year-old girl) female gymnast/martial artist superheroine Zl'f with her "superhuman" 15 STR is as physically powerful as a pro football linebacker.

 

In the last adventure I ran I threw the team (Along with a half square mile of the University of Montana at Butte campus) back into the Cretaceous Period so they could rub elbows with a T-Rex and velociraptors 65 million years ago. One character took out a hunting pack of 9 velociraptors in 2 Phases with a 6d6 NND Area Effect attack. He was shocked it was so easy. I told him, "Hey, they're just animals. Think of them as bipedal tigers with a big rear claw for raking." Velociraptors are dangerous to normals, not to superheroes. The T-Rex would have been a tougher fight, but the result would have been the same.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

In the last adventure I ran I threw the team (Along with a half square mile of the University of Montana at Butte campus) back into the Cretaceous Period so they could rub elbows with a T-Rex and velociraptors 65 million years ago.

 

Hmm.

 

Trebuchet, ever played any Freedom Force?

[Thirdbase]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

DEX is the most useful and cost-effective item you can purchase. I highly recommend buying it up as high as your character conception (and GM) will allow.

 

6 points of DEX costs 18 Character Points. For your 18 point investment, you get:

• +0.6 SPD (6 points)
  
• +2 OCV (2 CSLs with All Combat, Can't be used for DCV (-1/2); 11 points)
  
• +2 DCV (2 CSLs with DCV; 10 points)
  
• +6 Lightning Reflexes with All Actions (9 points)
  
• +1 with All Agility Skills (5 points)

41 points worth of stuff for 18 points. Not too shabby.

 

Of course, this is just number-crunching and game mechanickhood. It shouldn't take precedence over character concept and campaign guidelines.

 

Derek for this post you have just lived up to your avatar. You have just been "Knighted.":D

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Thirdbase

Derek for this post you have just lived up to your avatar. You have just been "Knighted.":D

Well, with one difference. Brian wouldn't have put in the bit about character conception.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

Just remember that AoE attacks are your friend if you're losing the DEX arms race. And for GMs, the whole point to a Hunted is that the villain in question is going to start adapting powers and tactics designed to deal with characters they can't hit.

 

Actually, if your CVs stink, then your bestest buddy is having a teammate who has entangles, flashes, martial throws, darkness, enhanced KB attacks, TK or other ways of setting up targets that you can lay into.

 

That, and using some teamwork.

 

$0.02

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Jhamin

Trebuchet, ever played any Freedom Force?

Yes, actually I have it on my PC. But I never went past taking out Nuclear Winter and his cronies.

 

Why do you ask? Is there a scenario with dinosaurs?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

Actually, if your CVs stink, then your bestest buddy is having a teammate who has entangles, flashes, martial throws, darkness, enhanced KB attacks, TK or other ways of setting up targets that you can lay into.

 

That, and using some teamwork.

 

$0.02

Absolutely right. My character Zl'f, with our team's highest SPD (9) and highest CV (15) and our brick Silhouette (4 SPD, 8 CV) have both bought Teamwork 15- and together came up with several code works for combo attacks. My personal favorite is "Window," in which Silhouette Desolidifies and my character attacks through her (Usually with a Leg Sweep) to knock the opponent off his feet so Silhouette can then attack while the bad guy is prone (and at 1/2 DCV). Another of my favs is "Flyswatter," in which Silhouette swings a vehicle at a fast opponent and Zl'f hides on the undercarriage of said vehicle to attack the opponent by surprise.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Yes, actually I have it on my PC. But I never went past taking out Nuclear Winter and his cronies.

 

Why do you ask? Is there a scenario with dinosaurs?

 

Yes. Time portals, raptors, T-Rex's, etc.

 

What a great game!

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

DEX is the most useful and cost-effective item you can purchase. I highly recommend buying it up as high as your character conception (and GM) will allow. (...) Of course, this is just number-crunching and game mechanickhood. It shouldn't take precedence over character concept and campaign guidelines.

The last sentence is paramount. STR too is a damn good deal, as is CON. Desolidification is, too, because it is worth many, many point in defenses of all sorts. Must the Hulk get some desolidification to be more efficient? And what about PRE? for a meagre 50 pts of PRE, you will have a 0-phase attack that will give you initiative regardless of DEX, cut your opponentS CVs in two, make them loose an action or even cause them to faint whitout even getting your hands dirty.

 

If your goal is to hit whoever you like, CSL or AoE is the most direct line. DEX (And STR, and CON...) is like taking a trio at McDonald's. It's a better deal, exept in the case you're not interested in the french fries. If that's burgers you want...

 

I've got nothing against the concept of a very agile hero with astronomic DEX, but for relativity's sake, there must be a concept or else every PC will be built on the same guidelines. What's the use in making a cat-burglar or Martial Artist with a DEX 32 if the team's brick is at 26 and the mentalist, 23?

 

For exemple; as a GM, I do have a problem with power armors that boosts DEX and SPD. How does an armored shell makes you more agile than when you're naked?

 

[CrosshairCollie]

Originally posted by Nucleon

For exemple; as a GM, I do have a problem with power armors that boosts DEX and SPD. How does an armored shell makes you more agile than when you're naked?

 

Cybernetic reflex boosters?

Early warning systems?

Target trackers in the HUD?

 

I believe, during the Secret Wars, Iron Man made reference to his 'new radar system and in-flight dodging computers' or something similar. It's all technobabble, but so long as it sounds good ...

[JmOz]

On the flip side, I LIKE limited dexes, be it an OIF or OIHID or what have you, In the comics Tony Stark can't dedge anything out of his armor, but can dodge LASERS TRAVELING AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT BY DEFINITION while in the armor, how would you represent this little bit (BTW ALOT of characters have this problem, in hero ID they seem stronger, faster, etc, even when they don't "Loose" there powers)

 

I also have never liked the idea of characters are humans with a power,

 

My games for the record base humanities potential at 1.5 NCM, so the strongest human would have Str 30, the most agile a dex 30, the fastest at 6

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

Cybernetic reflex boosters?

Early warning systems?

Target trackers in the HUD?

 

Lightning reflexes, CSL's and PSLs within the OIF. Various detection devices, too. My opinion ond only that, of course.

 

Cybernetics are another matter, and not worth the same limitation.

 

Should Power Armors boost such things as CON and BODY too? Or just provide DEF?

[Pattern Ghost]

Sure.

 

CON: CON that doesn't affect figured only prevents being Stunned. That's easily explained with inertial dampening systems.

 

BODY: Increased BODY represents armor that has to be breached/damaged before the character takes BODY damage.

 

Since DNAFC CON is so limited and since supers characters rarely take BODY, I have absolutely no problem allowing either of these.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

CON: CON that doesn't affect figured only prevents being Stunned. That's easily explained with inertial dampening systems.

OK, that's fine for physical attacks. But how do you rationalize extra CON provided by "inertial dampeners" protecting a character from a flame attack with no knockback or an Ego Attack which has no inertia to dampen?

 

More DEF is the proper approach. Powered Armor can easily justify PD, ED, Mental DEF, Flash DEF, Power DEF, etc. It really doesn't quite make the grade for increasing how hard it is to Stun a character after defenses are penetrated by an attack.

[Tasha]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Lightning reflexes, CSL's and PSLs within the OIF. Various detection devices, too. My opinion ond only that, of course.

 

Cybernetics are another matter, and not worth the same limitation.

 

Should Power Armors boost such things as CON and BODY too? Or just provide DEF?

 

IMHO powered armor should be able to effect what ever stats that the player wants it too. As far as I am concerned if a player wants to give me the ability to take away her superhuman stats for an adventure that is quite fine by me.

 

Con= on board medical systems that provide instant injections of medicine to keep the operator alert. You could also say that those internal dampners also keep the armor temperature at a constant level, and have the entire thing be totally insulated from electrical attacks.

 

BODY is from thick armor, the ability of the suit to take punishment.

 

Dex could be from detectors, leads and sensors that attach to the brain through the skull, or through a data jack.

 

Speed can also be from the same things as DEX.

 

In the Champions games that I played in we never had much of a problem with any stat inflation due to competition. We always knew what the acceptable ranges were. The Dexes were from 18-33 (23 being average. Speed being from 4-7 (5 being average). We always played that Bricks had lower Dex and Speed, Martial Artists and Speedsters were at the top and Energy projectors were in the middle. It all seemed to work out. We used teamwork on villains that we couldn't just hit one on one.

 

It wasn't until I recently started a champions game with a new group that these assumptions came into question. The players all wanted to have a huge dex and speed. Kind of frustrating as I really like to run a game that is lots of roleplaying (talking heads and character/ plotline development) punctuated with at least one combat per game. It keeps everyone happy, especially me who doesn't really like to run combats.

 

Tasha

[BNakagawa]

Justifying DEX through powered armor is trivial.

 

Build a robot with a DEX of 23. Make a hole in the chest and plug Stephen Hawkings in it, add a neural interface that bypasses the damaged bits of his nervous system so he gets to control a DEX 23 robot. (I'm guessing professor Hawking's DEX is maybe 1.)

 

$0.02

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

OK, that's fine for physical attacks. But how do you rationalize extra CON provided by "inertial dampeners" protecting a character from a flame attack with no knockback or an Ego Attack which has no inertia to dampen?

 

More DEF is the proper approach. Powered Armor can easily justify PD, ED, Mental DEF, Flash DEF, Power DEF, etc. It really doesn't quite make the grade for increasing how hard it is to Stun a character after defenses are penetrated by an attack.

 

Instant injection of amphetamines.

 

There is no one approach.

 

edit/addition: The point is, buying either CON or BODY through a focus, with the usual DNAFC, isn't abusive, so there's no reason to disallow it. WIth a little thought, you can think of a rationale for pretty much anything. We're talking comic book logic, here.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Tasha

Con= on board medical systems that provide instant injections of medicine to keep the operator alert. You could also say that those internal dampners also keep the armor temperature at a constant level, and have the entire thing be totally insulated from electrical attacks.

 

BODY is from thick armor, the ability of the suit to take punishment.

 

Dex could be from detectors, leads and sensors that attach to the brain through the skull, or through a data jack.

 

Well, presented like that (drug boosts, in truth), I would have to say "okay" as a GM as long as side effects are present, but I would rather like a boost in DEF and CSLs brought by the means of power armors.

 

Still, your concept do makes senses. Therefore Nucleon shall magnanimously concede the point.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Starlord

Yes. Time portals, raptors, T-Rex's, etc.

 

What a great game!

 

I'll second that. Darn that's an addictive game.

 

That reminds me, I need to check out the 'old forums' and see if I can find HERO stats for the Freedom Force Characters.

[Alien Knight]

Re: Are you engaged in the DEX race?

 

Hulk; DEX 11-12. The Green Behemoth likes to be touched; He's got an Area-affecting clap/stomp to get rid of these pesky speedsters.

[/b]

 

I'm sorry but, "Hulk LIKE to be touched," is just SO wrong...

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

Instant injection of amphetamines.

 

There is no one approach.

 

edit/addition: The point is, buying either CON or BODY through a focus, with the usual DNAFC, isn't abusive, so there's no reason to disallow it. WIth a little thought, you can think of a rationale for pretty much anything. We're talking comic book logic, here.

OK, I'll buy that. It could even lead to a rather Tony Stark-like amphetimine dependency for our armored hero (My rule is "Never miss a God-given opportunity to mess with the characters' heads.") Or better yet, how about the police trying to bust Cyberguy for his meth lab?

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

OK, I'll buy that. It could even lead to a rather Tony Stark-like amphetimine dependency for our armored hero (My rule is "Never miss a God-given opportunity to mess with the characters' heads.") Or better yet, how about the police trying to bust Cyberguy for his meth lab?

 

Nucleon whole heartedly agrees with you, my Medieval Siege Engine friend.

[Pattern Ghost]

Of course, only whimps wear power armor.

[Guest innominatus]

Re: Are you engaged in the DEX race?

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

This is an offshoot of the Thor/Supes threat, that I thought was worth a thread of its own.

 

Do you give your characters abusive amounts of DEX?

 

Nucleon saw many abuses of this good, good investment. "Thors" with 27-30 DEX, Power Armors that makes you more agile than when you're naked and the likes.

 

I especially agree about the bit about powered armor characters. Realistically, if you were wearing a suit with powered servos that responded much more quickly to your brain's commands than the flesh-and-bone that's sitting inside it, every time the suit lurched into action it'd end up breaking bones, ripping tendons, and other sorts of not-fun things...

 

I actually once built a powered armor character that tried to find a logical solution to that problem. How it worked was, the suit injected a powerful muscle relaxant into the wearer as soon as the helmet was put on; the wearer would go limp inside the suit, and the suit's "muscles" would take over, supporting the wearer and moving his body at the speed of thought. When the wearer was ready to get out of the suit, it would inject the wearer with a stimulant to help counteract the effects of the relaxant; but the longer the relaxant had been in the wearer's bloodstream (i.e.; the longer he'd been in "Hero ID"), the longer it would take for him to recover from the effects. I simulated this as a pair of Susceptibilities that took the form of DEX Drains with long "recovery" times. One was a fairly potent (3d6) one that went off immediately, and a second one was weaker (1d6) but worked continuously for every hour the suit was worn. The kicker was that the Drains effectively had a Trigger to them (bought as a Limitation to the power rather than an Advantage because it delayed the onset of the Drain) so that the effect of the drugs didn't hit until the helmet was removed or the suit powered down, forcing the wearer to use his own muscles to move around rather than the suit's. The guy could wear the suit for an hour or so (enough to foil a bank robbery during his lunch break) and still return to work and just be a bit clumsy (have trouble typing, bumping into things, etc.); more than a couple of hours, though, and he'd end up being a quadraplegic in a wheelchair for the better part of a day while he waited for the effects of the drugs to wear off...