Buying up Char in FH

[Lumbering Ox]

Its always bothered me when characters in FH buy up their charactersistcs up by more then a couple of points.

 

In Champs its easy to justify anything, but for normal people its hard to impossible to improve any stats beyond your baseline.

Generally people might improve what they grew into by 2 or 3 points barring a roidal dedicated weightlifter, but show improvement via skills.

 

Is it one of those things you just ignore, am I alone in this?

[LordGhee]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

No you are not alone. the style of game matters in a way. are the players skill to begin with or are they spose to start as teenagers?

 

It is an issue I have had with my players for twenty years. They generally do not listen which leads to character inflation.

[Old Man]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

One of the overall problems with FH is that stats are underpriced compared to skills. It is nearly always more cost effective to buy up stats (at least up to NCM) than it is to increase the relevant skill levels. We sometimes used to mitigate this by setting a limit on the percentage of points that could be spent on stats... usually 50%, though I think we tried 33% once in an effort to have a gritty campaign.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

Its always bothered me when characters in FH buy up their charactersistcs up by more then a couple of points.

 

In Champs its easy to justify anything, but for normal people its hard to impossible to improve any stats beyond your baseline.

Generally people might improve what they grew into by 2 or 3 points barring a roidal dedicated weightlifter, but show improvement via skills.

 

Is it one of those things you just ignore, am I alone in this?

 

The beauty of Hero is that there are very few imposed restrictions on character creation. Hero leaves that in the hands of the GM (see pg 338 Hero 5th). The solution to you problem is a very simple one that many other RPG's use in one form or another - put a cap on the number of character points a player may spend on primary characteristics at character creation. If you feel players are buying up their characteristics to unreasonable amounts with experience points, use a x2 NCM at 20, x3 NCM at 25, x4 NCM at 30, etc.

 

Other things you could do is require a minimum of character points to be spent on skills and/or non-combat skills and talents. This will make for fully developed characters.

 

One problem I have with FH is how cheap Strength is. By making it so that Strength costs 2 cp per ST point instead of 1 cp, you will see that players will design characters with more "reasonable" strength values. Try it if you experience the same problem.

[Reln]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

One of the problems I see is the STR minums for weapons seem way to high. Two handed sword at 17 is one of the worst. That basicly syas there is only a hand full of people strong enough to use a two handed sword efectively.

 

I also think weapon damage should in some way be based on skill, but that is another isue.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

Even assuming a character who will never pick up a weapon or wear armor, encumbrance kills a low STR character.

 

Try an 8 STR bard, for example, carrying a Lute and a bit of equipment. Assume he will rely solely on magic for attack and defense, and he's still pretty encumbered.

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

You can use a weapon too "heavy" for you IIRC by taking an OCV hit. I suspect even real life warriors have troubles with a massive greatsword.

One could increase sp to 2 and reduce the str mins of course, although I would have to ponder the math before doing such a move.

 

In the stand alone a long time ago when the earth was still cooling it used to cost 1 end per 5 points, now its 1 per 10, for FH, perhaps going back to 5 might not be such a bad idea.

 

On the idea of str. Why bother taking magic for attack purposes. Short of an area attack spell [and one can sweep a hex] it is so much cheaper to buy the attack form with a weapon of some sort, alas in FH you don't buy your weapon attacks like you do with Hero. I don't like the idea of having to buy your attacks in FH, however it seems to be a glaring weakness in the transfer from champs to fantasy.

It seems to me, the only thing worth buying magic for in non combative uses like flight and the like.

 

I am not very confortable with dealing with the system weakness by limited char levels, Better to fix the fault. Although even as it stands now, if you got the 80 points there is no reason not to buy up straight 20's for str, con dex and body. Lowering the amount you can buy up just makes it worse, every character will end up looking alike char wise, even more so.

 

There is some advantage to skills in that you have the flexability to transfer from damage to OCV to DCV depending on situation. I remember once I had a half Gaint vs a skill monkey and got myself killed. By the time I realized I should have been sweeping his hex it was too late, so I supose it was my fault.

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

Who else here thinks that for FH, ego is heavily overpriced. For champs I can see the 2 pointer, but in Hero is almost never seems to come up, less often then Presence.

When I do GM, I do try to use it a bit more often, for willpower checks but it sure ain't worth 2 points.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

I haven't done it, but how about a house rule stating Char costs double after character creation? Also, if a PC is planned to grow in a certain way to begin with, for 1cp they can reserve up to 5cp of future stat growth.

 

That way you have to plot your character's growth at creation.

[Outsider]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

You can use a weapon too "heavy" for you IIRC by taking an OCV hit.

 

Unfortunately, you also take a DC hit for every 5 STR (or fraction thereof) you are under the minimum. This means that most 1 handed weapons a 10 STR person can use will end up doing 3 or 4 DCs. The one exception is the ever-efficient Battleaxe, which will do 5 DC.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

One of the problems I see is the STR minums for weapons seem way to high. Two handed sword at 17 is one of the worst. That basicly syas there is only a hand full of people strong enough to use a two handed sword efectively.

 

Yes, you would have to reduce STR minimums if you were to change the cost of STR to 2 cp's per point. But STR minimums in the book are unrealistic anyways. Men with normal strength were able to wield greatswords with skill during the middle ages. The easiest way to change this is to subtract 5 from the minimum Strength requirements of all weapons across the board.

 

I also think weapon damage should in some way be based on skill' date=' but that is another isue.[/quote']

 

It is based on skill. That's why you can convert two CSL's to a +1 Damage Class. The more CSL's you have (the more skilled you are) the more damage you can do from converted CSL's.

 

Even assuming a character who will never pick up a weapon or wear armor, encumbrance kills a low STR character.

 

Try an 8 STR bard, for example, carrying a Lute and a bit of equipment. Assume he will rely solely on magic for attack and defense, and he's still pretty encumbered.

 

If this is a problem, then give your magic users the option to buy an Endurance Reserve. They're reasonably cheap to buy and you can get lots of END for just a few character points.

 

On the idea of str. Why bother taking magic for attack purposes. Short of an area attack spell [and one can sweep a hex] it is so much cheaper to buy the attack form with a weapon of some sort, alas in FH you don't buy your weapon attacks like you do with Hero. I don't like the idea of having to buy your attacks in FH, however it seems to be a glaring weakness in the transfer from champs to fantasy.

It seems to me, the only thing worth buying magic for in non combative uses like flight and the like.

 

Heh, that's funny. To me, most people on these boards (including me) seem to find magic to be way too powerful if not properly monitored/restricted. Have you seen some of the necromancy spells and battle magic spells in FH Grimoire 1 and 2??!!

 

I am not very confortable with dealing with the system weakness by limited char levels' date=' Better to fix the fault.[/quote']

 

But it's not a fault or weakness as you say. If you read the gamemastering section of Hero 5th Ed. you will see that this was deliberately done to give the GM flexability in how he/she wants to run a game. In fact, I would go so far as to say from the text that Mr. Long expects GM's to place limits on things like char levels as the GM tailors the game to his liking. Most other RPG's somehow limit their attribute levels at character creation and even after that. They do this by giving you so many "attribute points" to allocate between different attributes. This is no different than limiting the number of "character points" to allocate between different characteristics. Do you consider that a weakness for those games? At least with Hero you have the option of limiting them, and to that extent you get to choose how you want to limit them.

 

Although even as it stands now' date=' if you got the 80 points there is no reason not to buy up straight 20's for str, con dex and body. Lowering the amount you can buy up just makes it worse, every character will end up looking alike char wise, even more so.[/quote']

 

If you do choose to place limits on how many points a player can spend on primary characteristics at character creation, you won't have this problem.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

If this is a problem' date=' then give your magic users the option to buy an Endurance Reserve. They're reasonably cheap to buy and you can get lots of END for just a few character points.[/quote']

 

It's not the END (though that's also a problem), it's the combat penalties from encumbrance that will ultimately prove fatal.

 

In any case, I hate saying "all magic comes from END batteries because it's not efficient otherwise".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

Who else here thinks that for FH, ego is heavily overpriced. For champs I can see the 2 pointer, but in Hero is almost never seems to come up, less often then Presence.

When I do GM, I do try to use it a bit more often, for willpower checks but it sure ain't worth 2 points.

 

Well, Ego acts as defensive PRE if you don't want to be impressive, but don't want your jaw to hit the floor every time something crashes into the room. Combine that with a wizard focused on mental powers (and maybe some BoECV physical powers), and you can avoid paying for DEX (DCV? Buy a Shield spell!). That makes Ego pretty worthwhile, albeit not for everyone. But then, if STR weren't universal, that would sort of balance out, wouldn't it?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

On the idea of str. Why bother taking magic for attack purposes. Short of an area attack spell [and one can sweep a hex] it is so much cheaper to buy the attack form with a weapon of some sort' date=' alas in FH you don't buy your weapon attacks like you do with Hero. I don't like the idea of having to buy your attacks in FH, however it seems to be a glaring weakness in the transfer from champs to fantasy. [/quote']

 

How does one "sweep a hex"? I don't believe you can drop your target's DCV to 3 with any combat maneuver.

 

You do, however, need to take magic attacks with a bit of flair - if you're just buying a FireBolt that's readily simulated with a bow, you've missed the point.

 

Now a 2d6 FireBolt with +1/2 Variable advantage...that's useful!

 

Lots of opponents closing? Explosion

Opponent's hard to hit? AE 1 Hex Accurate

Lots of little opponents? 0 END

Opponent's hard to hurt? Penetrating

Opponent's desolid? Affects Desolid soulfire

 

Or a Ranged Drain (or Transfer - who needs an END reserve if you can just steal your opponent's END instead?)

 

A Flash (esp if it's Accurate or 1 hex area) is quite effective. A variant on this is Darkness with Personal Immunity.

 

They're firing arrows at me? Set up my Web over a few hexes (no, I didn't take "cannot spread" - why would that be relevant to a Web spell?). Entangle's also nice as a direct attack, of course. Your 2 Handed Greatsword doesn't help you wriggle out of those webs, does it? Now your STR would, but my ranged STR drain means you best do it fast...

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

Keep in mind that I've done most of my playing with much earlier editions including the standalone.

 

Some of the things I say might not have made it to 5th ed, I've skimmed it but haven't gone page to page in depth yet.

[Markdoc]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

5th Ed. doesn't really change anything with buying up CHA. Whether you allow it or not, is purely a matter of taste (I do).

 

It is true that over time, players' Stat.s will tend to migrate to the top end of the scale, but that's also true of their magic and their weapons skills - I simply adjust the challenges they have to face, so there's no real balance issues (I should note that I price STR at 2 points per, simply because that was otherwise the first thing that got maxed out, But if it costs 20 points to have STR 20, people start to think a bit more about committing that many points)

 

I don't see it as particularly "unrealistic" that a more or less constant lifestyle of walking, climbing, fighting, running and carrying heavy things builds strength and endurance, nor that having to puzzle out ancient riddles while climbing a rope under arrowfire improves your mental and physical agility. People in real life *can* improve their physical and mental abilities if they work at it.

 

Perhaps more importantly, it's not that far from literary sources either. Fantasy characters often improve their abilities (Dr'zzt and Shadowspawn are two of the more odious examples, while Conan and even Pippin and Merry do it - albeit at a more reasonable pace).

 

The only drawback I can see is that characters end up with similar CHA stat lines, but if that happens either you have players who *chose* to go that route, or you're not doing your job right as a GM. If all your players want to have 20 STR and 20 DEX, maybe combat with big chunky monsters is emphasised in your game, hmmm?

 

In my last game, *all* the characters were fighters. But 2 1/2 years and 100+ experience points later, the Stat. lines (and characters) were actually quite different. One player had maxed out her combat-relevant Stat.s, it's true. But another had concentrated on martial arts and semi-mystical fighting stunts, another had emphasised stealth and infiltration, another had emphasised interrogation/intimidation, while another had pursued useful knowledge skills.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

The problem I see with restruicting or prohibitting purchase of stats with xp is that players are then motivated to max out their stats at character creation, likely to the expense of other abilities. After all, you cvan always buy Lockpicking and Stealth with xp, but if you don't buy your DEX up to 23 and SPD up to 5 now, you'll never get another chance.

[Old Man]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

Exactly, which is another reason we had that 50/50 stats/skills rule. It doesn't eliminate the problem, but it mitigates it some.

 

In order to actually fix this, you'd have to separate stat points and skill points at character generation, and then ban or discourage stat increases due to experience. This, to my mind, is the cleanest solution. The stat increase problem is one of those holdovers from FH's Champions heritage--it's less of a stretch for Seeker's strength to increase by 10 than it is for Legolas.

[Krieghandt]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

I like to do an aggresive char cost after creation, +1 penalty per point, accumulative. ie, character starts with a 12 str. to raise to 13 it would cost 2 pts, 14 3pts, 15 4pts. I also double the cost after the penalty is added, for NCM. So our hero above would be paying 20 pts for his 20 str, or 53 total pts for a str of 20. I think if you think EGO is to expensive, just drop the price from 10 - 20 to 1 cp, then 3 cp after 20.

Krieghandt

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

I like to do an aggresive char cost after creation, +1 penalty per point, accumulative. ie, character starts with a 12 str. to raise to 13 it would cost 2 pts, 14 3pts, 15 4pts. I also double the cost after the penalty is added, for NCM. So our hero above would be paying 20 pts for his 20 str, or 53 total pts for a str of 20. I think if you think EGO is to expensive, just drop the price from 10 - 20 to 1 cp, then 3 cp after 20.

Krieghandt

 

Let's now compare two characters. Both plan to end up with a Hercules-type character. Let's say he will ultimately have an STR of 30. One decides he should have that 30 SR from the outset, and invests 30 points in STR at character creation.

 

The second decides his character is still maturing, and growing in to his peack 30 SR, so he starts with 20. He must spend [2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11] x 2 = 122 points to attain his 30 STR (or maybe it's "only" 71 if you just tack on one extra point for NCM). This gives PC #1 a 92 (or 41) point xp bonus to spend on skills and special abilities just because his character started with 30 STR, instead of building up to it.

 

PC #3, however, decides he will play Samson. He'll buy up the same STR bonus, but with the -1/4 Restrainable limitation that he can't use it if his hair is cut short. Now it's a power, so the limitations on buying up STR shouldn't apply, right? If they do, I guess he'll buy a Continuous Aid with the same limitation (and our Hercules #2 will make a minor change in his concept to make that a slow fade rate Aid which he involkes by caling upon his mighty father deity).

[Krieghandt]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

Actually, if you want a Herc character, but want to buy skills first, AND can justify the increased stats, then I call that part of the creation process. But I didnt add that above, as its more GM caveat then not. An example would be a severly injured warrior begining the game. His str and con will go up with xp, as he heals "long term". But not his dex, pre, ego, etc. The penalty is to keep mister theif from buying 25 str after he sees what the warrior can do with a 2-h sword. And I hadnt thought of the Sampson angle, thats pretty good.

Krieghandt

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

Sounds to me that you are just adopting a more rigid 'GM must approve new purchases with xp" rule. And I don't see why the focus should be exclusively on characteristics. How is it worse for the rogue tpo decide he wants to be a warrior, and exercise day and night to enhance his physical attributes, than for that same rogue to be highly impressed with the wizard's spells and study study study, buying spells with his xp.

 

Hero is not a class-based system. Why restrict the directions in which characters can grow?

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

I guess I've played with too many bad players, but I find when you require justification from a player as to why their character will do something, they will just make up anything, and the result often sickens me more anything that the requriement would have stoped otherwise.

 

"Uh, my fighter takes ballet so he can up his dex to 20"

"But your character is an extremem macho type, 2 months ago he sent a male ballet dancer to the hospital in a homophobic rage, hell all your characters are as homophobic as you are, and in real life you constantly put down things like guys doing dance"

"Uh yeah, well, my character had a change of heart"

 

Part of me would like to see things done "right" but much like soceity, the effectiveness of laws [or rules] are about as good as the people [or players] you have. The Paradox is, with good roleplayers, you need not put in any such rules or restrictions, with bad players, trying to restrict them will only make then rape the rules even harder.

[Old Man]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

Hero is not a class-based system. Why restrict the directions in which characters can grow?

 

It's not directions so much as magnitude. It's silly for a fantasy character to go from STR 10 to STR 20 after three adventures without having some kind of rad accident. It seems as though there ought to be a mechanism to prevent it from happening except in unusual circumstances. I find that, as a GM, it's easier to occasionally except a character from certain rules than it is to prevent a player from doing something that is book-legal.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Buying up Char in FH

 

It's not directions so much as magnitude. It's silly for a fantasy character to go from STR 10 to STR 20 after three adventures without having some kind of rad accident. It seems as though there ought to be a mechanism to prevent it from happening except in unusual circumstances. I find that' date=' as a GM, it's easier to occasionally except a character from certain rules than it is to prevent a player from doing something that is book-legal.[/quote']

 

Someone on these boards once imposed a "1 CP per adventure" rule on spending xp on stats. That seemed rational to me. For example, you could buy +1 STR, but not +2, at one time.

 

You could also extrapolate this to DEX by saying you pay 1 point for +1 DEX, no figured, act 11-. Next time, you can pay another point to make it a full DEX (No figured, or net of the 1 point SPD savings, depending on your preference).

 

CON is a bit tougher, unless you go with +1 CON act 11-.

 

Alternatively, you can scrap all the activation rolls and impose a number of adventures per +1 CON/DEX/whatever.