Early Tommy Guns

[Edsel]

I found a really informative website dealing with the early versions of the Thompson Submachine Gun. M1921A and M1921AC in particular. If you are as much a stickler for detail as I am its got some great information.

 

Tommy Gun Site.

[Barton]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

Far better page, it is also the "offical" page of the tommygun.

http://www.tommygun.com/

Being a Thompson SubMachine gun owner (the semi-automatic reproduction made by Kahr), I really love the weapon. It is very accurate, and while heavy, can be operated by almost everyone. The 30 round stick magazine is a good choice for combat (rarely jams and easily replaced), the 50-round drum is just plain fun.

The weapon fires the .45ACP pistol round, the same used in the Colt 1911 .45 automatic pistol. The.45ACP round is an excellent man-stopper and was developed for military use.

 

Steve Long believes the weapon to be cranky and that it gets dirty easily. This is not quite true. (I love Steve Long but we disagree about this). The weapon was expensive ($230 in the 1927, about $450 in 1942) and was the reason only 2 million made in WW2. It servered in Korea and some were appearently used early on in Vietnam.

[Edsel]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

My late father had a chance to use the M1928A1 at the begining of WW2. He was a tank gunner and participated in the Operation Torch landings in North Africa. Initially the tank crew were each issued a Tommy gun in case they had to bail out. When they traded in their M3 Grant for the M4 Sherman only the tank commander got to keep the tommy gun the others got only Colt 1911A1 pistols.

 

Dad loved the M1928A1 Submachine Gun. He said you could hose down almost anything with it and it would never jam or give you grief no matter how dusty or sandy it got.

 

I have been thinking about placing the start of my Pulp Hero games around 1924-25 which would be before the availability of the M1928 and later guns. Thus my interest in the Model 1921A and 1921AC variants.

[st barbara]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

I remember reading that, during World war II Australia developed a home grown SMG (The Owen Gun) which was very simple with a minimum of moving parts and did not jam easily partly because they had had trouble with the more complex Thompson jamming under extreme conditions in New Guinea. The Tommy Gun WAS a bit prone to jamming; but only under extreme conditions ! Unless the PC's are slogging through the mud of the Owen Stanleys (or the referee WANTS a jam for dramatic purposes !) a Tommy Gun should be fine, particularly in an urban environment.

[Rage]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

the owen guns were awesome man. Especially the first couple of generations, they looked like some guy had built it in his backyard.

[Barton]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

I remember reading that' date=' during World war II Australia developed a home grown SMG (The Owen Gun) which was very simple with a minimum of moving parts and did not jam easily partly because they had had trouble with the more complex Thompson jamming under extreme conditions in New Guinea. The Tommy Gun WAS a bit prone to jamming; but only under extreme conditions ! Unless the PC's are slogging through the mud of the Owen Stanleys (or the referee WANTS a jam for dramatic purposes !) a Tommy Gun should be fine, particularly in an urban environment.[/quote']

 

The Tommy Gun has a open bolt and several parts inside that move during firing. Also the drum magazine is not good in combat (you have to wind it [YES wind it like clock] it 9 to 11 times). The Thompson is also very heavy in comparision to modern rifles (over 6Kg loaded). I would not want the Thompson to be my weapon trekking over the Owen Stanleys, but it is great weapon. I just got back from the range with my reproduction Thompson and put over 30 rounds in the bullseye at 7 meters from just one clip.

 

Do you know of a web site about the Owen Gun?

Do you know what ammo it used?

Is it still made (even as a reproduction)?

[st barbara]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

I don't know of any web sites, and I don't think that any reproductions are being made (Australian laws about owning fully automatic weapons are VERY restrictive !) but, on checking one of my reference books ("The Illustrated Encyclopaedia Of Firearms" by Ian V Hogg) I find that prototypes were made in 9mm Parabellum,.38 Super,.45, and 7.65 mm with the 9mm Parabellum being the production version. 45000 were made between November 1941 and September 1944. Not as many as I might have thought. Apparently the Owen was VERY popular with the troops who used it !

[LordGhee]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

If you can find the poster circa 1921? add for the Thomson. A cowboy on his porch using his chopper to great effect against the rustlers. We here in the west quickly pick up on new fangle things. (the hawking rilfe, the revoler, the winchester.)

A grease gun was a fixture in M1 tanks until a few years ago as standard equiment ( a place on the turret wall for gun and mags). it is a sten gun with the mag rotated since americans do not lie down to use thier gun, is the owen a sten variant?

[st barbara]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

To "Lord Gee" Sort of; at least in as far as it is a simple; easily manufactured SMG. However, unlike the Sten, the Owen had a top mounted magazine. It also (from all reports) lacked the Stens tendency to retain dirt once it had got into the gun. I have seen film of a test of the Owen in which the gun was dropped in a mud puddle (sans magazine), trodden into the mud, picked up and turned over before it was dropped into the mud puddle again, then picked up again, had the magazine reattached and fired immediately without jamming !

[megaplayboy]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

IIRC, there was actually a 100 round drum mag developed, but for various reasons(bulk, noise due to rattling, tendency to get dirty, etc) it was never really popular.

 

I kinda wonder how difficult it would actually be to pull off the 2-tommyguns-firing-at-once(one in each hand) thing effectively?

[ThothAmon]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

The Owen Gun

 

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-weapons/omc.htm

[LordGhee]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

great post thanks Peter

[st barbara]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

IIRC, there was actually a 100 round drum mag developed, but for various reasons(bulk, noise due to rattling, tendency to get dirty, etc) it was never really popular.

 

I kinda wonder how difficult it would actually be to pull off the 2-tommyguns-firing-at-once(one in each hand) thing effectively?

Kind of interesting. It might well depend on the strength of the characters concerned. I used to think that it was "impossible" to use an M60 machine gun in any way other than from a bipod or a vehicle until I saw some news film of someone in Lebanon firing one from his shoulder ! Heck, if you are playing in a pulp game I would think that a tommygun in each hand while being attacked by hordes of "evil minions" or whatever would look cool !

[LordGhee]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

Best tommy gun movie

 

BATAAN

 

1943 - staring Robert Taylor

 

Do trees move?

[Edsel]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

IIRC' date=' there was actually a 100 round drum mag developed, but for various reasons(bulk, noise due to rattling, tendency to get dirty, etc) it was never really popular.[/quote']

The 100-round drum did exist but it was heavy and therefore never very popular.

I recall reading that early during WWII that some British Commando units were issued the M1928A1 with 50-round drums. However it was found that the clockwork drums (they had a spring and had to be wound like a clock) were a hassle in combat and the drums also rattled which made stealth pretty nigh impossible. The stick magazine is is quiet and much more trouble-free.

[Barton]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

The 100-round drum did exist but it was heavy and therefore never very popular.

I recall reading that early during WWII that some British Commando units were issued the M1928A1 with 50-round drums. However it was found that the clockwork drums (they had a spring and had to be wound like a clock) were a hassle in combat and the drums also rattled which made stealth pretty nigh impossible. The stick magazine is is quiet and much more trouble-free.

The drum is called "C" drum or 100 drum was not popular (and few were made) for the reasons you mention. The 50 round drum or "L" drum was more popular. We own a "L" drum and it is works, but the stick magazine is far easier to use, but only 30 rounds.

Thanks for the post on the Owen, a great story from 'Down Under about their sub-machine gun. Nine millimeter, more accurate on full automatic but not the stopping power of the .45ACP.

[st barbara]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

. I don't want to start an argument here but the so called "stopping power" of the .45ACP round as compared to the 9mm Parabellum is overrated ! The U S A (and a few other countries that mostly get guns from the U S such as Mexico and Argentina)is the only country to retain the .45 calibre for handguns after the development of smokeless powder at the end of the 19th century. SMGs are effectively a handgun with full automatic capability (hence the common European designation "Machine Pistol") so it was natural for the U S to have its SMGs in their established pistol calibre (.45) while the Europeans developed their SMGs in 9mm. I assume that, with the U SA having adopted the 9mm parrabellum pistol round, any modern U S SMGs would have been developed in 9mm. Stopping power is an elusive thing with two main schools of thought. The U S (and the British) went in for heavy, relatively slow bullets while the Europeans preferred lighter, faster bullets; although when the British FINALLY got around to developing their own SMGs they were in 9mm rather than the standard army handgun calibre of .38/200 (probably because the handgun in question was the Enfield revolver, and SMG's generally work better with rimless amunition !)

[Barton]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

. I don't want to start an argument here but the so called "stopping power" of the .45ACP round as compared to the 9mm Parabellum is overrated ! The U S A (and a few other countries that mostly get guns from the U S such as Mexico and Argentina)is the only country to retain the .45 calibre for handguns after the development of smokeless powder at the end of the 19th century. SMGs are effectively a handgun with full automatic capability (hence the common European designation "Machine Pistol") so it was natural for the U S to have its SMGs in their established pistol calibre (.45) while the Europeans developed their SMGs in 9mm. I assume that' date=' with the U SA having adopted the 9mm parrabellum pistol round, any modern U S SMGs would have been developed in 9mm. Stopping power is an elusive thing with two main schools of thought. The U S (and the British) went in for heavy, relatively slow bullets while the Europeans preferred lighter, faster bullets; although when the British FINALLY got around to developing their own SMGs they were in 9mm rather than the standard army handgun calibre of .38/200 (probably because the handgun in question was the Enfield revolver, and SMG's generally work better with rimless amunition !)[/quote']

 

I need to answer this, the .45ACP was developed because smaller rounds did not always drop the bad guy. The .45ACP WILL stop someone and penetrate better than a 9mm (assuming many other things being equal). Now is it "better" than a 9mm?, maybe. The debate about which is best is a matter of what you want. The 9mm has a few advantages over the .45ACP.

It is interesting to note that some US police forces (including ones in Northern IL where I live) are converting to 10mm because of better stopping power.

The rest of your post is "dead-on" (could not resist the pun). The reason US went with the .45ACP was because of the Colt 1911 automatic pistol, other nations went with 9mm because they adopted automatic pistols based on 9mm. The US tested the Colt vs. the Luger 9mm but went with the 1911 likely due to it being made by a US company.

Now an interesting story about the .45ACP. In WWI the US had a shortage of Colt 1911's. Smith and Wesson stepped in and made the S&W 1917. A revolver that used the .45ACP with half-moon clips. The half moon clips gave the round a "rim" so it could be fired in the revolver. In fact the boxes the ammo came in had the .45ACP already in half-moon clips for fast loading. They were produced in GREAT numbers and many were sold as surplus after WWI. A good "pulp-era" weapon. I am looking to purchase such a weapon, preferably with a 1917 serial number.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

. I don't want to start an argument here but the so called "stopping power" of the .45ACP round as compared to the 9mm Parabellum is overrated ! The U S A (and a few other countries that mostly get guns from the U S such as Mexico and Argentina)is the only country to retain the .45 calibre for handguns after the development of smokeless powder at the end of the 19th century. SMGs are effectively a handgun with full automatic capability (hence the common European designation "Machine Pistol") so it was natural for the U S to have its SMGs in their established pistol calibre (.45) while the Europeans developed their SMGs in 9mm. I assume that' date=' with the U SA having adopted the 9mm parrabellum pistol round, any modern U S SMGs would have been developed in 9mm. Stopping power is an elusive thing with two main schools of thought. The U S (and the British) went in for heavy, relatively slow bullets while the Europeans preferred lighter, faster bullets; although when the British FINALLY got around to developing their own SMGs they were in 9mm rather than the standard army handgun calibre of .38/200 (probably because the handgun in question was the Enfield revolver, and SMG's generally work better with rimless amunition !)[/quote']The US Army is actually going back to the .45 cal pistol and getting rid of the 9mm. They may settle on the .40 though. However, they are intent on ditching the M9 pistol and getting something heavier after experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan have shown it to be lacking.

 

Only SF troops use SMGs in any quantity in the US military, so there isn't a large enough demand ot have an Army wide SMG. SF Command buys off the shelf military SMGs that suit their needs (or have the unit armorers modify them to meet those needs)

[LordGhee]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

The best work on stopping power is mossad ayouubs book, I think he is a retired police man and using data taking from real shotings.

 

from memory,

 

best 357 with plus p ammo (realy fast) 75% one shot stop

45 with + load ( all 45 did well in the 60%) 69%

9mm with +p 67%

 

again ten years + since I read the book

 

The 40 cal or 10mm where not popular then so not much in data

 

The 10mm (40cal long) was developed (adopted) because of the leasons from

the Mamia shoot out that the FBI was in with the 2 bank robbers.

 

The bad guys took many hits with 9mm and 38's and even thou bleeding out still kill a number of agents

 

The FBI did extenive fire power test.

 

things like stopping power (estimated damage the round would do)

 

controllability (mulitpul rounds on target) this is one of the main reasons that the 45 failed. (my experince with 45 is that I fired it and wait to bring it down to target.)

 

most people do not like big guns ( I top out at 40cal I really like it as do most people but a lady friend really likes big guns 45 - this big russion thing - a 50 cal revoler )

 

the FBI pick the 10mm (40 cal long) because it penatrate windows better (If an agent fired out of a car through the window) but after over a decade of use the FBI has gone to the 40 to many people had controlablilty issues (to big boom move pistol off target)

 

Most police departments look at this data and pick the 40 cal of which the Glock is the most popular

 

funny thing about guns some you like ( I am spooky with my 44 - 40 cap and ball colt with the 45 I can hit with it but get less than 1/2 of the rounds compare to the 40 cal )

 

controll is the issue, if you hit you win simple. Stoner stressing hitting the traget seems to have been proved out with our experince in the last 40 years .

 

Now ladies are big part of police and the military and must be able to use the guns also. I belive that the 40 will be the choice. the experince that police have with it I hope will prove out. (in general ladies with small hands (as i have chubby hands also {but big feet ) wrapping around a big gun leads to controll issues)

 

The 40 leaves a bigger hole this allows bleeding out to happen quicker which make it better that the 9mm +P and have to have a faster bullet leads to greater stress on the gun, more wear greater replacement more failures.

 

of course if wear is not an issue you can do what GSG (german SWAT type unit one of the frist and excellent) did and load a 9mm short (ppk) with C4 and get P++++ (that really fast moving bullet) which they felt gave them a really concealable pistol that had very good stopping power

 

 

the 38 special which New york carried for 100 years was the modern replacement that Teddy Roosevelt got for them, it was smokeless and had a higher velicoty than the black powder pistol they were using. it was more accurate also. the New York police reseted the automatic new ammo (hollow points) ect more than any force. revolutionary then reactionary. At the time the 38 was adopted in Europe was adopting the 9mm for it police.

 

Now stopping power in Europe is less of an issue as lot of thier police carry a SMG with them. Just look at a group picture on a normal day.

 

the data is that with hollow points as ball did not stop as well. the military has to use ball so the bigger hole (for bleed out ) is a factor.

 

the mayland state police did studies in the early 50's which the best stopper was the 44-40 black powder - slower bullets tranfer engery better followed by the 45. but +P ammo was not popular. the 357 is a 38 with a long case ( I have shot a friends 357 with 38 ammo which is cheaper) so more powder higher velocity. Maryland police carried 357's with lesser loads ( a littler hotter than 38's can be but not a hot as a 357 can be.) the 357 was developed in the 30's ?

 

Indinia Jones carried a 45 revoler.

 

Because of the city fighting of late the army is now looking at a Smg for it's infantry units.

 

Now for those adventure Hero types caring a 45 revoler a 45 lever action and having a 45 tommy around sounds good.

 

 

the automatic in police circles was not really accepted until the 80's ( the FBI lead the anti auto lobby)

 

 

Last in a pulp game guns can be fun, my charater: The Galdiator travel to the furture where he saw and used a 44 magumn. he like it so he brought one back to the 30's

 

he found a gun smith to make the ammof for him ( limited)

 

during one adventure we felt that vampires were involed (nope blood sucking aliens that where posing as aliens. so i got silver ammo made

 

Many adventures later (which gladiator never fired his gun in combat) during an adventure a gaint werewolf burst in on me.

 

gladiator I pull my 44

 

Gm as Werewolf : heeheee that wont help you -

 

Blam

 

Gm: you must have silver bullets to effect the Gaint Werewolf.

 

smiling player

 

Oh yeah. (thud of body as gm knock over the were figure)

 

gladiator to anorther player : That was most satisfyingly anticlamatic.

 

Blam

 

Gm what was that for

 

to make sure it is a rug:)

 

 

Thanks for reading this 3am wandering missive.

[st barbara]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

To "Lord Ghee" Indiana Jones uses both a .45 revolver (probably Colt or S &W) in at least one of the movies and a .455 revolver (a Webley) in another. He also uses a small automatic (could be .32 or 9mm short) that looks like a Colt or a Browning and a 9mm SMG (it looks like a German MP 38 ). He also uses a whip and a sword (at least once). Like many an adventurer Indiana can (and will) use any weapon that comes to hand. He even used a sledgehammer and a saw in one fight in "Temple of Doom " !

[st barbara]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

The US Army is actually going back to the .45 cal pistol and getting rid of the 9mm. They may settle on the .40 though. However, they are intent on ditching the M9 pistol and getting something heavier after experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan have shown it to be lacking.

 

Only SF troops use SMGs in any quantity in the US military, so there isn't a large enough demand ot have an Army wide SMG. SF Command buys off the shelf military SMGs that suit their needs (or have the unit armorers modify them to meet those needs)

I remember reading somewhere that at one stage early in the 20th Century the U S adopted a .38 revolver which, while adequate to stop most western troops, failed against the fanatical Moros in the Phillipines, they went back to the .45 Colt revolver after that experience. When they were conducting tests (in 1907 I believe) for a new automatic pistol they insisted that it be in .45 clibre and (according to something I read) the tests were won by the .45 calibre version of the Luger produced by DWM. However DWM were NOT interested in setting up a production line in what was for them a foreign calibre in a foreign country when they had enough work equiping the German armed forces at the time. As with the later tests that led to the adoption of the Beretta where the tests were actually WON by the Sig-Saur, the difference was small enough that taking the runner up (a local company in 1907, Colt) didn't adversly effect the euipment oif the troops.

[Mad_Ernie]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

The Owen Gun

 

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-weapons/omc.htm

 

Peter:

That is so cool! I had never seen or heard of an Owens gun before. I especially like the second model. The first version looks like a cross between a Thompson SMG and some kind of rifle.

Collin

[megaplayboy]

Re: Early Tommy Guns

 

http://www.american180.com/

 

.22 short magnum, rof 1500 RPM, up to 275 round magazine capacity--a very interesting SMG.