New Powers

[TaxiMan]

Ok, so 6th edition is a long time away but what new powers would you add to Hero? I'm thinking broad-use powers, not highly specific. Or (and this probably is the majority of powers), powers that are often used or desired but have really clunky builds in Hero.

 

I'd list

 

Regeneration (bring it back!)

Jerico-effect

Invulnerability

 

So it's been discussed a thousand times before, but what do you want?

 

[This should be turned into a poll after we make the list!]

[TaxiMan]

Re: New Powers

 

One red flag for candidate powers is if they involve a VPP for multiform or other weirdness!

[DrFurious]

Re: New Powers

 

The question to ask is does Hero need more new powers? IMO, there is already quite a proliferation of advantages that makes it difficult to keep up with out a heavy time and book investment.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New Powers

 

How about a door locking power?

 

I'd build a "twiddle" power, whose only purpose is to switch a target from one of its normal states to another, and what those states are is defined at the time the Power is built. You could use it to put a target to sleep, or unlock a door, or turn on a car's ignition, or for any number of other things (though you couldn't specify deactivating Powers -- use Dispel or Suppress for that). Alternately, I'd see Transform rewritten to explicitly include this functionality; as is Transform is more of an "alter the target" rather than "alter a status" Power.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Powers

 

How about a door locking power?

 

I'd build a "twiddle" power, whose only purpose is to switch a target from one of its normal states to another, and what those states are is defined at the time the Power is built. You could use it to put a target to sleep, or unlock a door, or turn on a car's ignition, or for any number of other things (though you couldn't specify deactivating Powers -- use Dispel or Suppress for that). Alternately, I'd see Transform rewritten to explicitly include this functionality; as is Transform is more of an "alter the target" rather than "alter a status" Power.

Hmm. And you could presumably force someone into another form if they had Multiform/Shapeshift, possibly force them to go Berserk if they have that Disadvantage, etc. Interesting. I'd almost be inclined to call that a Cosmetic Transform, as it doesn't really change anything permenant about the character/object. Then again, there could be arguments for using Mind Control for this (somewhere I jokingly suggested that locks be built as Computers--at least, I think I was joking at the time ). [EDIT: I think that was in the Fantasy Hero forum.]

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Powers

 

Maybe it is time we made 'Disease' and 'Poison' into attack powers, with their own defences?

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: New Powers

 

I don't know if I'd go with new powers.

 

What I'd be more interested in is rebuilding the power construction system. Right now, various powers, Aid, EB, Force Field, etc. have various defaults for END cost, duration, range, area of effect, etc which you then modify with advantages and disadvantages.

 

In some ways I think it would actually be simpler if you actually constructed a power from various bits and pieces. Chose the effect, chose the END cost, chose the range and area of effect and then calculated the cost directly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Powers

 

ick no. Disease and Poison are SFX.

 

They work the way you want them to work in your game. That's it. It's not an "Attack Power" it's a Special Effect.

 

HERO System is uninversal - not every game will work with every other game however becauseof Genre Tropes you want and don't want.

 

If you get too universal you get generic and that sounds like walking into a Baskin Robins to find all 31 Flavors are Vanilla. Not even French Vanilla, just crappy plain Vanilla. bleh.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Powers

 

ick no. Disease and Poison are SFX.

 

They work the way you want them to work in your game. That's it. It's not an "Attack Power" it's a Special Effect.

 

HERO System is uninversal - not every game will work with every other game however becauseof Genre Tropes you want and don't want.

 

If you get too universal you get generic and that sounds like walking into a Baskin Robins to find all 31 Flavors are Vanilla. Not even French Vanilla, just crappy plain Vanilla. bleh.

 

 

Well it is a sfx at the moment, I'll give you that, but poisons and diseases never seem to work that well when built from components: they either cost too much, or just can't do what they are supposed to or else they have no logical structure for defending against them or they are as suble as the average sledgehammer. I'm thinking of something like change environment but against a specific target rather than an area, and with specifically poison/disease/illness related effects. Oh, and some sort of contagion adder....

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Powers

 

I don't know if I'd go with new powers.

 

What I'd be more interested in is rebuilding the power construction system. Right now, various powers, Aid, EB, Force Field, etc. have various defaults for END cost, duration, range, area of effect, etc which you then modify with advantages and disadvantages.

 

In some ways I think it would actually be simpler if you actually constructed a power from various bits and pieces. Chose the effect, chose the END cost, chose the range and area of effect and then calculated the cost directly.

I'll second that! It isn't an easy task, though. We've debated this many times, especially for particular examples such as Healing/Regen./Aid, Drain+Aid/Transfer, BOECV EB/Ego Attack, Armor/Force Field, etc. I think making Advantages and Limitations multiplicitave instead of additive could be a big step toward being able to do it, but any way it's done will require a hell of a lot of work. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see it done eventually though!

 

EDIT: ...and the trick is doing it in a way that will be somewhat backwards compatible, leave most people reasonably satisfied, etc.

[TaxiMan]

Re: New Powers

 

I believe almost any power can be modeled in Hero terms.

 

However, my thought was to take some of the overly-complex builds for common usages, throw away the overly-complex structure, figure cost & give it a new name.

 

Teleportation gate? Regeneration? Man, those are nasty builds that require looking at the book every time I use them. I like the idea of a mind-hopper, but won't use one because the power is a mess.

[TaxiMan]

Re: New Powers

 

Speaking of 6th edition, one change I've contemplated is to give powers an extra stat: Active Cost. For example, I could have a power "Regeneration: 7cp / BODY, 25AC".

 

With this you could cost powers appropriately, but not have them be hosed when adv. and lims get applied. It's sort of already done for HA.

[schir1964]

Re: New Powers

 

ick no. Disease and Poison are SFX.

 

They work the way you want them to work in your game. That's it. It's not an "Attack Power" it's a Special Effect.

 

HERO System is uninversal - not every game will work with every other game however becauseof Genre Tropes you want and don't want.

 

If you get too universal you get generic and that sounds like walking into a Baskin Robins to find all 31 Flavors are Vanilla. Not even French Vanilla, just crappy plain Vanilla. bleh.

Actually, there is one mechanic that is missing which many SFX require (Disease and Poison being one) is a mechanic that is based on Per Segment instead of being based on Per Phase. Movement also might benefit from such a mechanic.

 

Therefore, the essence of what you are saying is true, however, the mechanics used to build most Diseases and Poisons in the source material is not simulated in a way that makes sense for the game.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Powers

 

Actually, there is one mechanic that is missing which many SFX require (Disease and Poison being one) is a mechanic that is based on Per Segment instead of being based on Per Phase. Movement also might benefit from such a mechanic.

 

Therefore, the essence of what you are saying is true, however, the mechanics used to build most Diseases and Poisons in the source material is not simulated in a way that makes sense for the game.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

Well, there is much debate over the Movement part of this (e.g. I think controlled Movement works great on a per-Phase basis) and poisons and diseases often work over long enough periods that Gradual Effect, Extra Time, etc., are sufficient, but I know what you are talking about. For example, there is no real good way to make a spell have a set effect over a short period of time for different casters; the best you can do is assume a standard Speed for Uncontrolled/Continuous/Continuing Charges Powers, and that is a hack; if you do that you are screwing some characters (the ones with high Speed) and giving possible benefit to others (the ones with low Speed). It's a little frustrating. I'm not sure how big a deal it is in the overall picture, though.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Powers

 

Actually, there is one mechanic that is missing which many SFX require (Disease and Poison being one) is a mechanic that is based on Per Segment instead of being based on Per Phase. Movement also might benefit from such a mechanic.

 

Therefore, the essence of what you are saying is true, however, the mechanics used to build most Diseases and Poisons in the source material is not simulated in a way that makes sense for the game.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

Maybe instead what we need is to add a Per Segment version of Continuous instead of trying to create specific SFX Powers.

 

As to movement, At some point you need to just cut it so it's playable. I was talking with my group about something similar: Holding over the Post 12, they said it was unrealistic and while I agreed I pointed out that at somepoint playability should trump "realism" so the bookkeeping doesn't become the focus of combat. "It's just easier, and that can be reason enough" arguement.

[schir1964]

Re: New Powers

 

Maybe instead what we need is to add a Per Segment version of Continuous instead of trying to create specific SFX Powers.

Whether you add a new option for Continuous or create a new Advantage or simply create a Power that's based on Segments (like Flash), it will increase flexibility in the system.

 

As to movement' date=' At some point you need to just cut it so it's playable. I was talking with my group about something similar: Holding over the Post 12, they said it was unrealistic and while I agreed I pointed out that at somepoint playability should trump "realism" so the bookkeeping doesn't become the focus of combat. "It's just easier, and that can be reason enough" arguement.[/quote']

Not saying it needs to replace existing mechanics, only that it could benefit other things in the system that might make for sense for the game for those GMs who want to use it.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Powers

 

Whether you add a new option for Continuous or create a new Advantage or simply create a Power that's based on Segments (like Flash)' date=' it will increase flexibility in the system.[/quote']

Which is an excellent reason to try and add something new. An Advantage (part of continuous or another kind of Duration Advantage) that converts something to a Segment Based power would greatly increase the flexibility of the system.

 

I would advocate this over adding a Power to address a specific SFX - which is heading in the wrong direction IMO.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New Powers

 

What I'd really like to see is less of what I like to call "bondage and domination rules". Less of "You can't do this, you can only do that in certain situations," etc. If a rule seems applicable in a place where the designer didn't think of it, don't tell us it's not allowed!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: New Powers

 

What I'd really like to see is less of what I like to call "bondage and domination rules". Less of "You can't do this' date=' you can only do that in certain situations," etc. If a rule seems applicable in a place where the designer didn't think of it, don't tell us it's not allowed![/quote']

 

I second, third and sextuple this. That was one of the problems I had with the 4th edition....I would post a question (or answer one) or an example of a build and people would jump all over me..."you can't do that!" It can be incredibly irritating.

 

5th edition has reduced this somewhat, but not entirely. I'd like it to be a thing of the past.

 

However, I don't mind conversations about whether or not you should do something at all. I just don't want to be told that I can't, especially when I'm suggesting a possible solution to someone with a build problem. I think thats up to the person who has the problem (and their GM if applicable) to decide, not the Hero community as a whole...

[Teflon Billy]

Re: New Powers

 

I list a few areas that I think are thinly covered in Hero 5th Edition in my own thread on this topic:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=574749

 

Please contribute any ideas that you may have while you're perusing.

 

TB

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Powers

 

Which is an excellent reason to try and add something new. An Advantage (part of continuous or another kind of Duration Advantage) that converts something to a Segment Based power would greatly increase the flexibility of the system.

 

I would advocate this over adding a Power to address a specific SFX - which is heading in the wrong direction IMO.

 

 

Well we wouldn't call them 'Poison' or 'Disease'. that would be as daft as calling something that can mimic a thrown rock 'Energy Blast'...erm...

 

Like I said i'd do it pretty much like CE for people. A bit more subtle than the galumphing great killing attacks and drains we normally employ in this niche.

 

We could call it Metabolic Adjustment, and it could go up as well as down...

 

My objection to a segment based power* (well, we already have them in places) is that it is going to make every turn 12 phases long (not 12 segments - they are already 12 segments) and is likely to slow down that already desperately mired aspect of Hero: the very bit that should zip along with alacrity: combat.

 

 

*I felt it obligatory

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Powers

 

What I'd really like to see is less of what I like to call "bondage and domination rules". Less of "You can't do this' date=' you can only do that in certain situations," etc. If a rule seems applicable in a place where the designer didn't think of it, don't tell us it's not allowed![/quote']

 

Well it would probably be good for sales....

[Duke Bushido]

Re: New Powers

 

What I'd really like to see is less of what I like to call "bondage and domination rules". Less of "You can't do this' date=' you can only do that in certain situations," etc. If a rule seems applicable in a place where the designer didn't think of it, don't tell us it's not allowed![/quote']

 

HERE HERE!

 

While I don't want to come off as anti-Fred-- there is a good deal of it that I enjoy, after all, that is the single biggest reason that our group has no real interest in using it.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: New Powers

 

What I'd really like to see is less of what I like to call "bondage and domination rules".

 

Actually, I’d like to see MORE of this. But not with dice involved.

 

---

Wait. Maybe I’d just better shut up now.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: New Powers

 

Exert

Type: Standard Power/Attack Power

Duration: Instant/Constant

Costs End: Yes

Cost: 5 or 10 points for every 5 points of Exert

 

Exert is a more limited, but less restricted, form of Strength. It is a Power, not a Characteristic, and can be freely used in power frameworks.

 

For five points, a character may buy five points of Exert. In its standard form, Exert can be added to Strength for the purposes of lifting heavy objects, escaping from grabs or entangles, or holding on to things. It can NOT be used to do damage, even with throwing or crushing.

 

For 10 points, a character can buy 5 points of Full Exert, which can be used in any way strength can be used, including punching, crushing, or throwing.

 

Limitations:

‘Trained Strength’ (-1/2): With this limitation, Exert can only be used to Grab and escape from Grabs (including some entangles)

 

---

 

Basically, a form of STR that you can put in a multipower without feeling guilty, and eliminates quibbling over weather ‘Only to escape from grabs’ is worth –3/4 or -1.

 

Maybe with a ‘ranged’ form to make ranged trips, disarms, and so on.

 

Could be easily adapted to the other ‘problem’ stats, as well.