Question on explosives

[Badger]

I was trying to figure out for comparison purposes the proper pop to give certain explosives.

 

Particularly a land mine, a typical grenade, and your typical pipe bomb.

 

Right now, I am guessing 4d6 on your average homemade pipe bomb. But it doesnt seem quite right. Any thoughts?

 

Note: Not sure which forum to put this topic in.

[Hermit]

Re: Question on explosives

 

I was trying to figure out for comparison purposes the proper pop to give certain explosives.

 

Particularly a land mine, a typical grenade, and your typical pipe bomb.

 

Right now, I am guessing 4d6 on your average homemade pipe bomb. But it doesnt seem quite right. Any thoughts?

 

Note: Not sure which forum to put this topic in.

 

Don't have anything in the book I notice on landmines but

A concussion grenade is 6d6 EB Explosion

A Frag grenade is 2d6 RKA Explosion

A stick of Dynamite is 5d6 EB explosion

So pipe bomb at a bit less than that seems about right to me.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Question on explosives

 

Congrats on running slap bang into one of the wee hero system scaling problems. Low range explosives don't do anywhere near enough damage.

At 4d6N explosion, a pipe bomb won't even take off a hand most of the time.

*Sigh*

Alas, I have no idea how to solve the problem. It's tied up in the Joules to DC scaling and the whole x2 mass= +1 Body= 1 DC damage thing. I'm no where near enough of a physicist or chemist to figure out a realistic way to adjust things.

 

For my money, a point blank explosion from a stick of dynamite or a pipe bomb should stand a decent chance of killing a normal person.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Question on explosives

 

Congrats on running slap bang into one of the wee hero system scaling problems. Low range explosives don't do anywhere near enough damage.

At 4d6N explosion, a pipe bomb won't even take off a hand most of the time.

*Sigh*

Alas, I have no idea how to solve the problem. It's tied up in the Joules to DC scaling and the whole x2 mass= +1 Body= 1 DC damage thing. I'm no where near enough of a physicist or chemist to figure out a realistic way to adjust things.

 

For my money, a point blank explosion from a stick of dynamite or a pipe bomb should stand a decent chance of killing a normal person.

 

So should a man with a reasonably large knife, a two by four, or a small caliber gun (assuming point blank range....).

 

Things don't kill people so much in Hero.

[Zed-F]

Re: Question on explosives

 

I agree that, low-yield explosives don't really tend to do much in a superheroic game, but I suppose because normal weapons tend not to do that much in superheroic games to begin with. If your usual handgun is a 1d6K or 1d6+1K attack, a grenade is scaled about right compared to that I guess. But even in heroic games a 1d6+1K handgun isn't very scary unless you severely limit rDEF.

 

Now if you start playing Joe Normal Hero in a Zombie slugfest, where everyone starts out with 8 characteristics and 0+25 or 25+25 points, that grenade starts to look a lot scarier.

[SirViss]

Re: Question on explosives

 

...

At 4d6N explosion, a pipe bomb won't even take off a hand most of the time.

...

 

If I was the GM, and I wanted to portray what would happen to a character that was *holding* the pipe bomb, I would convert the DCs to Killing Damage. And unless he had resistant defenses on his hands (natural or artificial), that damage goes right through all defenses. It would then be "dramatically" correct to call the character "Lefty".

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Question on explosives

 

If I was the GM' date=' and I wanted to portray what would happen to a character that was *holding* the pipe bomb, I would convert the DCs to Killing Damage. And unless he had resistant defenses on his hands (natural or artificial), that damage goes right through all defenses. It would then be "dramatically" correct to call the character "Lefty". [/quote']

 

I have done some work as a pyrotech apprentice setting up various explosions and flame SFX, and have seen a couple of accidents. In general, I still say that theres not enough damage involved in our system. What you're describing is refered to as tamping, the art of containing an explosion so the damage is increased. A m-80 can take off a closed hand. The actual amount of low explosive (gunpowder) in a firework is pretty small... its the compression from all the cardboard that causes the pressure buildup and thus the boom. Most pipebombs should do some killing damage anyway, because they are by definition built with hard casings which will turn into shrapnel on detonation.

Well.... OK... it kinda depends... "Pipe bomb" is a bit too vague in general as a description. You have two main variables here... metal or plastic pipe, and high or low explosive.

A low explosive (gunpowder, most often) pipebomb will usually throw at least some shrapnel, from either type of pipe.

A high explosive (usually homemade plastique or the infamous diesel/fertilizer mix) pipe bomb may or may not produce similar shrapnel... it is possible for the exposion to be energetic enough to effectively vaporize the container and convert the components to the corona of rapidy expanding superheated gas that makes up the *boom*.

I don't really know where I'm going with this other than a basic explanation of where my head is on the subject. Like small guns and small blades, small explosions should be a lot more dangerous in the game system than they are.

 

A thought might be to increase the DC by around half again, but to add a limit that the DC of the explosion drops off at -2dc per hex... most concussive type explosions don't do anywhere near enough grief at ground zero, but they do abate pretty quickly... a meter of distance can mean the difference between third degree burns and simply ringing ears.

[Zed-F]

Re: Question on explosives

 

I don't really know where I'm going with this other than a basic explanation of where my head is on the subject. Like small guns and small blades' date=' small explosions should be a lot more dangerous in the game system than they are.[/quote']

I guess the question I have to ask here is dangerous to who, exactly? Dangerous to your typical action hero (i.e. PC)? Probably not, really -- these are the sorts of weapons they come across all the time and deal with on a regular basis, at least within the context of an adventure. Dangerous to Joe Normal who does not expect to get into combat, who is just there as part of the scenery, or who is a 'hero with feet of clay' in a Zombie Survival story? You bet.

 

I think an easier way to simulate this dichotomy of what's dangerous to an action hero (or superhero) as compared with what's dangerous to everyday people is to not allow normals to go into negative BOD. Once a normal hits 0 BOD, he's dead. This makes a 2d6 RKA EX grenade very dangerous indeed. A 1d6+1K EX pipe bomb probably won't kill him, but is something to be very careful with when you only have 8 BOD and a 3 BOD hit is a crippling wound.

[Cancer]

Re: Question on explosives

 

When I was in 4th grade [this was 1965-6] in Seaside, CA, my elementary school district backed up on the perimeter of Fort Ord. Apparently it was common for kids to sneak under the wire around the base and go into the range area, and bring back unexploded souvenirs ranging from blank M16 cartridges to mortar rounds.

 

Consequently, the Fort Ord MPs had a travelling road show that went to schools where they took a standard blasting cap, taped it to a piece of half-inch plywood on which one kid volunteer's hand had been traced with a magic marker, and then took the mess out to the schoolyard and (while all the kids were a hundred yards away) detonated the cap. The plywood would then circulate among the classrooms, with most of the outline of the hand (and the plywood within it, leaving a nice hole in the board) removed by the blast.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Question on explosives

 

I guess the question I have to ask here is dangerous to who, exactly? Dangerous to your typical action hero (i.e. PC)? Probably not, really -- these are the sorts of weapons they come across all the time and deal with on a regular basis, at least within the context of an adventure. Dangerous to Joe Normal who does not expect to get into combat, who is just there as part of the scenery, or who is a 'hero with feet of clay' in a Zombie Survival story? You bet.

 

I think an easier way to simulate this dichotomy of what's dangerous to an action hero (or superhero) as compared with what's dangerous to everyday people is to not allow normals to go into negative BOD. Once a normal hits 0 BOD, he's dead. This makes a 2d6 RKA EX grenade very dangerous indeed. A 1d6+1K EX pipe bomb probably won't kill him, but is something to be very careful with when you only have 8 BOD and a 3 BOD hit is a crippling wound.

I don't have many scaling problems with superheroic games, but then again, I don't usually play superheroic games much anymore. In most cases I strongly subscribe to the "normals are people too" school of thought... that is to say, I perfer to work out my systemic details with the average person in mind, then build heroic characters with heroic stats and abilities that seperate them from your average man on the street. Part of this bias has to come from my experiences, truthfully... in all modesty, I'd have to write myself and most of my friends up as competent normals, at the very least. I do realize that my personal skillset isn't all that common among most of society, but its not unusual for the more dedicated gamers, ironically. The other part of this bias is from the fact that most of our actual crunchy available data on weapon effectiveness is against what, in game terms, would be normals.

 

When I run, I use almost all of the optional combat rules to increase the lethality of low end weapons and generally increase realisim... When I was first being trained to shoot, my rangemaster/instructor told us about a friend of his in the Park service who was hit with a stray .22 round from someone plinking quite a distance away and who died before he could get to his car to radio for help. Granted, it was what I'd call a critical hit... took the round through his femoral artery and bled out. After a couple years of shooting at NRA marksman level and participating in shooting matches, I'm pretty confident that I could put most people down with a .22LR of my choice... maybe not right away, but with several shots I recon I could drop most folk who weren't in a total adrenaline mode.

 

So I guess you'd say I'm reasoning from effect here...

I like modeling weapons to be a bit nastier, but its not vital with the right rules. I'm inclined to make most explosives killing damage, unless they are paper cased concussion munitions, in which case I'm in favor of increasing the base DC but making them drop off faster, or alternatively, if they're kept at small DC levels, increasing the range of the explosion. I'm also thinking that addding the "Conforming AOE" advantage to concussion munitions might give them a better feel, realisim wise. Part of the reason I'm thinking about this is I've been seriously thinking about doing a Zombie Hero game at some point, and I'd like to see explosives that'd have at least a little effect on the walking dead. Tho I personally suspect (and the Zombie Survival Guide kinda supports me ) that explosives are probably underwhelmingly effective against zombies, if the PC's do get ahold of some and give it a try, I'd like the occasional save the day blow up the zombies effect, while on the converse, want there to be a definite fear and loathing factor for the players... If Bob the Gas station attendant gets dogpiled by zombies with a lit pipe bomb in hand, I expect to see flying zombie bits and a dead Bob.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Question on explosives

 

When I was in 4th grade [this was 1965-6] in Seaside, CA, my elementary school district backed up on the perimeter of Fort Ord. Apparently it was common for kids to sneak under the wire around the base and go into the range area, and bring back unexploded souvenirs ranging from blank M16 cartridges to mortar rounds.

 

Consequently, the Fort Ord MPs had a travelling road show that went to schools where they took a standard blasting cap, taped it to a piece of half-inch plywood on which one kid volunteer's hand had been traced with a magic marker, and then took the mess out to the schoolyard and (while all the kids were a hundred yards away) detonated the cap. The plywood would then circulate among the classrooms, with most of the outline of the hand (and the plywood within it, leaving a nice hole in the board) removed by the blast.

Nice!

The rangemaster I mentioned in my post above had a similar bit... He'd set a pine 4x4 in the ground about 5 feet downrange on the skeet range and then blew it in half with a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck (narrow choke) to impress on the students why you don't EVER point a loaded shotgun at anything you don't intend to destroy.