Quick Location Memoization

[Dust Raven]

I was inspired by the recent Teleportation thread and came up with an idea I was wondering if we could somehow impliment.

 

Currently, if you have a Floating Location for your Teleport, it takes a full Turn (12 seconds) to set the location. To do this, you must be able to perceive the location in a way that allows you to analyze it or otherwise "get a feel" for it. The character must also be at 0 (or is it half?) DCV while doing this.

 

So, there are ways to get around the perception part using Clairsentience and Enhanced Senses, but what about the time?

 

There is no roll involved in setting a Location, so you can't make a roll with a penalty (for taking less time) to set it quicker, so it would be incorrect, or at least innacurate, to apply a RSR and allow someone to do it.

 

There is some precidence in the VPP mechanic to allow a character to simply take an appropriate Power Skill and make a roll to perform a task typically reserved for outside of combat. Perhaps a simple roll would allow it without any other modifier? To me, this sounds the simplest, but possibly the most abusive. 3 points seems like too little to spend for this ability.

 

Perhaps an additional Adder? With some Powers, an Instant Change Adder is applicable to perform an action that normally takes a Phase to be done in no time. Could such an Adder be applied to allow an action that normally takes a Turn take only a Phase or less?

 

What ideas do the rest of you have?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Generally speaking, when using the Time Chart for something, every level up or down is usually equated with a 1/4 shift in Advantage Cost. So...

 

If we start with 1 Turn as +0 and count each step down the Time Chart as +1/4...

 

To be able to change/memorize a Floating Location in an Extra Phase would be +1/4

 

To be able to do it as a Full Phase would be +1/2

 

To be able to do it in an Extra Segment would be +3/4

 

To be able to do it as a Delayed Phase would be +1

 

...and by extension, to be able to do it as a normal Half Phase action would be +1 1/4

 

These Advantages would be applied to the cost of the Floating Location(s).

 

As an alternative, perhaps the character could purchase a specialized Sense and apply Rapid to that Sense.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

This is, by my thining, something is in the province of the Power Skill.

 

Not all Power Skill uses should be "new" or "different" but may simply be using the Power outside the predefined mold, if you can buy it later as another type of power then you should. But if it's something like this, where there is no precedent for it, then continued use of the Power Skill should be acceptable.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

This is, by my thining, something is in the province of the Power Skill.

 

Not all Power Skill uses should be "new" or "different" but may simply be using the Power outside the predefined mold, if you can buy it later as another type of power then you should. But if it's something like this, where there is no precedent for it, then continued use of the Power Skill should be acceptable.

 

Originally, this is what my mind instantly leap at. Upon further thought, doing something instantly (or near instantly) that normally takes an entire Turn should cost more than 3 points, especially since those 3 points are already getting you something else (the entire Power Skill). It's a bit more balanced if all the Skill does is allow for quicker use of setting a location, but not quite balanced enough.

 

--------------

 

Dr. A, that's a nifty suggestion I hadn't thought of. Still seems a bit cheap, but maybe I'm just being too strict on this. A +1 Advantage sounds about right for a 1/2 Phase (I'd skip the Delayed Phase level), and maybe jump straight to a +2 for Instant (it eliminates the need to be a reduced DCV in addition to being instant).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Well, I probably would add modifiers based on the AP of the Teleport being used (maximum AP available), but Doc A there has some pretty good ideas worth testing in game play.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

What Dr Anomaly said, probably.

 

Mind you the problem with going from the 'one turn' break point (present on a few powers, including regeneration) to something less is that you then remove all pretence at balance as not everyone who takes the reduced time will have the same speed, so different characters will get different utility from the advantage.

 

As you say, if you have clairsentience or even mind scan, or some other sensory power 'telescopic N-Ray vision'? then you can do it as a perception action - not even a half phase, if the enhanced sense is a sense, not just a detect. You can TP to anywhere you can perceive.

 

If you wanted to do it on Dr A's system, a half phase would be +7 points, or 12 points for a single floating location, and you can still only set it to somewhere you can currently sense. It is rare you are going to need to set a floating location in a combat situation. My problem with this is if you want to just reduce the time taken a bit then the cost is going to be tiny: 1 extra point for 'extra phase', 2 extra points for 'full phase' and so on.

 

You can buy clairsentience for 20 points. I'd probably allow a -1 for 'only to target teleport - can only receive 'is it safe' type sesnory data', or the -1/2 'only through the sesnes of others', yielding a cost of 10 or 13 points respectively: not bad, really, and it does use some sort of perception/targetting mechanism which i find reasonably satisfying. You can't automatically return there but you can, in effect, set an 'instant' point anywhere in 100" for that price.

 

it is more a style thing than anything else, but for these reasons I would not be inclined to allow +1/4 advantages to reduce time taken below 1 turn - I'd find another way.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Oh, I figured the +1/4-per-level would end up being too cheap. My prefered method of debate in situations like this, though, is to first do the "logical" extension of something that already exists in the rules and then modify it to what personal preference / playtest says it should be. The reason I try to take that approach, instead of just jumping directly to what I suspect the end result will be, is that there's always a couple of posters who'd jump in with cries against "house rules" and how we should "use what's there" and so on.

 

Doing it this way tends to largely short-circuit those protests and still gets us there in the end.

 

Were I going to allow it at all, I'd probably use a progression of:

 

+1/4 +1/2 +1 +2

 

...doubling the value of the Advantage with every step on the Time Chart. Either that, or I'd use a simple Adder (probably 10 points) the way that TK uses a simple Adder for Fine Manipulation.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Either that' date=' or I'd use a simple Adder (probably 10 points) the way that TK uses a simple Adder for Fine Manipulation. [/quote']Or what about just making a new kind of Floating Location for Teleportation that costs 10 points instead of 5 points?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Or what about just making a new kind of Floating Location for Teleportation that costs 10 points instead of 5 points?

Yeah...that'd work, too...

 

Say it takes a Full Phase or something to memorize...?

[Silbeg]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Hmm... not much of a restriction, though... having a point that can be changed that quickly. In fact, I would probably argue that a floating location should probably take more than a turn, base.

 

In any case, if you have a way to perceive the location from a distance, why can't you just t-port there directly?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Hmm... not much of a restriction' date=' though... having a point that can be changed that quickly. In fact, I would probably argue that a floating location [i']should[/i] probably take more than a turn, base.

 

In any case, if you have a way to perceive the location from a distance, why can't you just t-port there directly?

Because sometimes you're setting up an escape route in enemy territory using surveilance instead of inflitration.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

To this point in the coversation,

 

I am most taken with Derek's solution,

 

but I find valid points in both Doc's and G-A's ideas as well. Granted, this is a rather common discovery when dealing with either of them, as they tend to have very good ideas and tight gameplay conceptions.

 

Though Doc:

 

I wanted to clarify something in your original idea of going up and down the Time Chart:

 

Are you applying the cost of the Advantages to the Teleport, or to the Floating Location? The idea in question-- shortening the length of time required to memorize a location-- doesn't really seem to affect Teleport itself.

 

Derek's post brought to mind that any changes should really be aimed at the idea of the Floating Location. If the idea of simply creating a new type of Floater rankles, then perhaps applying the Time Chart modifiers to the Floaters would seem 'more in line.'

 

Honestly, I don't see a matter of 'too cheap for the utility' in this case, as the only time this would really affect a character would be in a combat or other 'desperate action' scenario. Most of the time, he would be free to take twenty minutes to study a location if need be. Because the aditional untility of the reduced time would apply only to a small fraction of the character's use of the Floating Locations, I don't see the costs as listed in the chart as being too far out of line.

 

 

Now as I said, I also like G-A's idea of simply using the power skill. Perhaps the idea of running up and down the time chart might be considered for penalties when memorizing a new location. I have to admit that I didn't think of Power skill right off, what with it being a new idea. I was leaning toward a PER roll, to reflect attention to detail, etc.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Though Doc:

 

I wanted to clarify something in your original idea of going up and down the Time Chart:

 

Are you applying the cost of the Advantages to the Teleport, or to the Floating Location? The idea in question-- shortening the length of time required to memorize a location-- doesn't really seem to affect Teleport itself.

I meant for it to be applied to the cost of the Floating Location. Though of course if one were to go the "Adder" route (allowing any Floating Location to be quick-studied) that would be an Adder to the Teleport power itself.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

IMO I'd just be inclined to say: tough - that isn't how floating loactions work: they do take a turn to memorise and you have to be there.

 

Perhaps I'm just an old meanie.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Another idea occured to me: Safe Blind Teleport. While it isn't exactly what I'm trying to achieve, it does allow one to arrive unharmed at his destination. The only problem is that the destination may not be the intended one.

 

Of course, Silbeg has raised a very good point. Would quicker Location setting be of any use, generally speaking? If it's instant, there is really no difference between teleporting to a location you can perceive, since you have to perceive the location to set it. Of course, there is always the option of setting it now and teleporting to it later. Say you're being led through a hallway you need to get back into later (unobserved) and spot an open door to a storage closet. You only get a brief glimpse of it, but you do see inside long enough to make out rough details (such as location and orientation of shelves around the door). You want this to be enough time to "tag" the closet as a location you can safely teleport to later.

 

This sounds useful to me, so there should be a way to stat it out. My question is how would you do it? We've got some good ideas so far, and I'm definately gonna playtest some of them to see anything is unbalancing. Hard to see otherwise.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Let us imagine you are captured (on purpose, obviously - all part of the plan) and taken down a corridor to a room you want to memorise, but the guards are not stopping there a turn - they are marching you straight through.

 

If you have bought instant floating location memorisation you have nothing to worry about - you just tell the GM you are memorising it.

 

If you don't then you have to take a turn there, so you have to fake a seizure or the stitch or in some other way engage one of your guards in some conversation or activity that would enable you to stay there for 12 seconds, and probably make an INT roll to split your attention between memorisation and your distraction. Moreover if the GM (for plot purposes) doesn't want you to memorise this location, he can just have your ruse fail.

 

I like the second one best, so I don't think I'll be allowing quick memorisation.

 

Just becasue you can, doesn't mean you should: a lesson as apposite to a game of Hero as to the foreign policy of many heads of state.

 

OTOH, if you are going to let it happen, I'd just call it 10 points and have done.

[Silbeg]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

IMO I'd just be inclined to say: tough - that isn't how floating loactions work: they do take a turn to memorise and you have to be there.

 

Perhaps I'm just an old meanie.

You old meanie... I agree with you, 100%!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Quick Location Memoization

 

Let us imagine you are captured (on purpose, obviously - all part of the plan) and taken down a corridor to a room you want to memorise, but the guards are not stopping there a turn - they are marching you straight through.

 

If you have bought instant floating location memorisation you have nothing to worry about - you just tell the GM you are memorising it.

 

If you don't then you have to take a turn there, so you have to fake a seizure or the stitch or in some other way engage one of your guards in some conversation or activity that would enable you to stay there for 12 seconds, and probably make an INT roll to split your attention between memorisation and your distraction. Moreover if the GM (for plot purposes) doesn't want you to memorise this location, he can just have your ruse fail.

 

I like the second one best, so I don't think I'll be allowing quick memorisation.

 

Just becasue you can, doesn't mean you should: a lesson as apposite to a game of Hero as to the foreign policy of many heads of state.

 

OTOH, if you are going to let it happen, I'd just call it 10 points and have done.

 

I tend to like the second one as well. Adds more to the drama. But I do like the option of the first, as it allows for a larger array of character concepts.