Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

[ApocalypseZero]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Well, first off I must say BAD GREG! You can't scowl like that at the company that got me into RPG's. (Palladium) Thankfully for those here, I'm not as rabid, nor as narrow sighted, as those that haunt the Pally Forums. (Oh do I try to show them sense, but they are blind.)

 

Next, as for Star Wars, I think Greg and I are on the same page, but may have a different vision on things. Couple that with my brother's love for the Dark Side (I'll admit I do to), and this kills off the D20/D6 games because they are geared to be Anti-Dark Side for Players. Of course, a Dark Side game does have an almost easier time to run. (How hard is it to hunt down Jedi?)

 

My point for our game is to not lose the things that make Star Wars what it is. I've done several games of D20 SW (mostly as GM). I think they have a good game, but when it comes to the Force, it seems a bit skewed. So, let me highlight what I am looking for using HERO.

 

Force Powers. I don't want to see a Magic Spell Listing of powers, but there are very specific things that can be done with the force. I know Greg mentioned a VPP because of me, but I am happy with Multipowers if a 'list' of Force powers were to be made. And after getting into Champions, I am seeing alot of similarity in Telekinesis Powers and the Force, but this would not be all of them granted. But I was thinking a general listing of powers would include: Push/Pull, Choke/Grip, Lightning, Speed, Aura/Armor, Mind Trick/Control, Light Healing (no super heals or resurrections until much later), Defense/Attack Focus Enhancer, Force Drain, Life Leech, Saber Throw, etc. Mostly an adaptation of KotOR powers but also maybe a few powers not 'computer game friendly' from the movies or other sources (can't think of anything specific now).

 

Jedi. The Heroes of the Universe in any period. These guys in movies/games seem to be the unstoppable. On paper, it's a different story. But part of the feel I want to portray is that starting Jedi won't be greese by Blaster Monkey #247's stray shot that happened to be in his general vicinity. I also want the ability for non-Jedi to be Force Sensitive and mean something more than, 'I CAN become a Jedi, if I want'. I'm thinking a Multipower sort of deal right now with Force Sensitive being equal to Danger Sense, Combat Luck, and the ability to 'buy/use' Force Powers. It's amazing what one can do once they learn a system. (It only took me 2 months and help to get past all the clunky examples.) Rant: EB 8D6 (8x(5pts per D6)=40 doesn't look right. Simply says 5 pts per D6 is a bit less misleading. /End Rant.

 

Races/Aliens. No Star Wars universe is complete without them. Unfortunately, HERO lends itself to packages, which will cut pts off aliens. This was my biggest point after the Force powers where I was getting sketchy. Maxima seems the easiest way to pull it off, but a starting +Characterstic would seem more beneficial. And even a modification of Characteristics Costs could be possible (Twi'lek DEX Cost x2 for example) to show a races' natural strenghts. But then, Wookies would be god awful. But now that I think of it, most Wookies should be STR 15+, and 15 being the weak ones. I think this would work well making STR Cost x2 naturally as well. (Limits the Humans) See what happens when I have nothing to do at work?

 

My Last Point, the 'Sides' of the Force. D20/D6 seem to be built on players always being Light Side or neutral at worst. After KotOR and the movies, I think that there should be Pros & Cons for each force side, but to do so, must also keep within the Points Limitation for Characters. Light siders should see a Bonus to EGO and PRE and perhaps COM. Light side seems to enhance the mental more than physical. Dark side seems to bonus STR, CON, and Combat, with maybe a negative to COM. Neutral would be the mid ground. This also leaves Neutral with little 'extra' to it. Perhaps Neutral should see Force Powers used at their normal cost, where Light/Dark would have a +5 END cost to powers unless used to Help/Hurt others? I may be on to something here.

 

I'll leave this for you all to discuss, while I ponder, work up, rework, and finally scrap the whole project. Because as much as I love Star Wars, only one other player in our group seems to care for it.

[ApocalypseZero]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Well, I feel the need to defend myself from Greg's hurtful words. I wouldn't be playing RPG's if it wasn't for Palladium Books and their Robotech and Rifts games. You sting me with your words, but I will not cry.

 

But for Star Wars, I have 4 key issues that I think needs to be preseved.

1.) Force Powers

2.) Jedi/Non-Jedi

3.) Races/Aliens

4.) The 'Sides' of the Force

 

Force Powers, I think could be done in either a VPP or a Multipower, if the conditions are possible. Most would naturally be Telekinetic Based, but some could fall outside of this. Mind Trick/Control, Healing Trance/Meditation, and Lightning to name a few. I think with an appropriate listing of powers, most of those being from KotOR II or the Movies, that this could be overcome.

 

Jedi/Non-Jedi are just one of those things that the movies inspire, the games tone down, but we all love. A Jedi shouldn't be a victim to a stray blaster shot from Gun Bunny #5, but he shouldn't be looking at an army of Droid with sigh or relief. A Jedi needs to have a scare put in him. I also believe that Jedi Classes, along with Non-Jedi Classes, would be an idea for simplicity (since man knows labels too easily). I think the KotOR classes of Guardian (Fighter), Sentinel (Investigator), and Consular (Mage/Witch/Diplomat) would serve great for Packages. I also think Force Sensitive should mean something more than extra dice or bonuses and the ability to 'Be A Jedi' for those who don't want to be. Maybe a Multipower of Danger Sense, Combat Luck, and the ability to 'buy/use' Force Powers.

 

Races/Aliens. I think the number of unique aliens make Star Wars what it is, but with the HERO packages, seem to limit anyone who wants to be non-human. Here is where I think that Maxima should be capped at 20 for all stats, but a modification of the Charataristic Cost be made. Make STR x2 naturally, but maybe for Wookies be x.5 or x1 to show their strength, and Twi'leks having DEX Cost x2 instead of x3. Of course, other Characteristics would change as well, this is just a starter.

 

Sides of the Force. I don't like how D20/D6 force players to be Light side or Neutral at worst. There should be movement in the Force nature. I also think the nature a character has should be evident. Light siders seem to be more mental focused, so a PRE and/or EGO boost is appropriate, along with COM. Dark Siders are stronger, so a STR, CON, or Combat skill bonus is in order, but also should see a negative in COM or Body for their corruption (more so in COM). Neutral I can't really think of anything except maybe a Force Power bonus, using powers at normal END, where Light/Dark siders have a +5 END to powers unless used to Help/Harm others directly.

 

What do you think?

[austenandrews]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

The problem there is that the lightsaber isn't so intensely hot as to destroy the bullet instantaneously. An attempt to block a slug with a saber might just mean that the Jedi now has a heated chunk of metal flying at him. I'm not saying Jedi could be beaten by slugs what with their ability to pull a Neo and say no to the bullets' date=' but I don't think their lightsabers are the answer.[/quote']

A lightsaber is essentially a laser blast in blade form. I don't have any trouble believing a blaster shot could knock a bullet off its trajectory. Why would a lightsaber be any different?

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

This is not my work, just something I came across during my many ventures throughout the web. I wish the link was still active, but it was dead so long that I don't even remember the URL. If somebody out there does know where I can link to, I'd rather do that, so that the remainder of the authors impressive body of information could be referenced.

 

Anyhow, this is a pretty good description of how a lightsaber could work. I'm no physics expert, but it seems reasonable to me.

 

MODEL SIX: virtual light produced from a spinning field surface

The idea & physics behind this model supplied by the incredible Mr. Albert Forge.

This model is similar to model five, but is FAR more solidly based in REAL physics, and is a FAR better match for the observed sabre (and blaster) behaviors! It provides a theoretical answer to ''where does the 'stuff' of the blade come from'' *AND* actually NEEDS both a field AND rotation!

According to astrophysicist Yakov Borisovich Zel'dovich, a rapidly spinning conductor will cause the creation of virtual particle radiation at its surface. Particle production is controlled by the charge, angular velocity (of rotation) and radius of this charged conductor.

If we imagine a rod shaped charged field of atomic-scale cross-section, which is super-conducting and rotating at near-lightspeed, then charge regulation becomes the control for the particle emission type and quantity. Such charged fields would tend to repel one-another (if they are of like polarity), which means the blades would BLOCK one another.

NOTE: a sabre would have to be built carefully and tuned correctly! A badly adjusted sabre would subject its user (and everyone in range) to considerable amounts of gamma radiation!

The glow of the sabre blade consists of virtual-photons energized by the rotating field into real photons ...virtual light made real! The opaque 'thumb-thick' blade shape may be a swirl of ionized atmospheric particles (the AIR) drawn in and swirling about the core. When you IONISE a gas, you actually have a PLASMA (as it is meant by terrestrial physics) ... and this would glow JUST LIKE A FLUORESCENT TUBE (which is ALSO a plasma!). BUT this thumb-thick plasma zone is merely a by-product. The REAL cutting is performed by the minuscule core of the true blade, leaving almost microscopically thin cuts. (The blade would STILL glow fiercely in even in a vacuum, as it throws off 'virtual photons - made real' -- but the thumb-thick core may not be visible.)

Such a tight, rapidly spinning charged super-conducting field would rend (tear) through most matter by stripping off electrons, which bind atoms together. The ionized matter about the 'cut', as well as field-excited atomic movement in the localized area of the 'cut', would mimic great point-of-contact heat. A wound to a soft-tissue organic being would appear to be a microscopically thin BURN - and such a wound would usually tend to be cauterized (depending on how slowly the blade passed through - a large blood vessel cut too quickly may not be sufficiently 'burned' to cauterize).

Dense metals which have loosely bound electrons (which are free to wander about their lattice structure) would be more resistant to cutting. The 'atom stripping' effect would take a little longer to cut through, because such materials have more electrons 'to spare' before their lattice structure becomes "torn." Metals are also more highly conductive, and the localized 'heat' effects are minimized because the heat is carried away and dispersed through the material more quickly.

This means that even though with varying amounts of effort, a lightsabre could cut through virtually anything, some materials would offer more resistance to a sabre blade, and therefore we can now understand how Lord Vader's armor was able to ward off most of Luke's glancing blow, saving his life. Lord Vader's life is spared despite this glancing blow to the shoulder by Luke Skywalker because the dense metallic armor he wears is more resistant to the 'atom sheering' effect of a lightsabre blade. Luke just didn't hit HARD enough to get all the way through!

Mr. Albert Forge has gone further, and has postulated a mechanism for the generation of the spinning field which creates the blade described above. Imagine a tiny sphere of unknown composition (perhaps some of the 'hypermatter' referred to in the SWICS & SWVD books by LFL's Dr Reynolds). Rapidly spin this into a disk by the effect of inducing fields (probably EM). The disk deformed and elongated into a tube, or rod (imagine the sleeve of a shirt being turned inside out) by an axially mounted and powerful electron gun (like the tube of your TV). Field extension/retraction would be controlled by altering the output of the electron gun (which incidentally also controlled the charge of the conducting field ... the spin rate is determined by the inducing EM fields that created the disk from the sphere in the first place).

'Focussing' in this case may then be the very-rapid application of 'tuning' precession forces upon the extended field in order to 'follow' the orientation of the hilt, as left to itself it would tend to gyroscopically resist orientation changes.

[NOTE: Mr. Forge would like to say that all the above, which having its roots in 'real' physics, is speculative, and must be taken with "several solar masses of sodium chloride" *grin* ... IMHO however, it is a VASTLY more consistent and believable model than any other. It just 'could' possibly work! *AND* it matches ALL the observed and ascribed conditions!]

ADVANTAGES OF MODEL SIX

+ it SPINS - matching my 'gyroscopic angular inertia' ideas (independently supported by the SWVD)

+ no 'plasma' or 'fuel' required other than raw power

+ the blade is PURE energy

+ the blade is opaque

+ there is a sensible 'focussing' (tuning) role for crystals which COULD see them able to adjust the color!

+ the blades would block one another AND blaster bolts!

+ it hums

+ it glows, even in a vacuum!

+ the cuts are microscopically thin

+ it cuts by 'shearing away' the electrons in the substance, leaving a locally 'induced' heat-like reaction; in other words, leaving burns & cauterized wounds! Dense metallic surfaces with many stray electrons in their matrix would provide higher resistance to the 'electron stripping' cutting action...thus Vader's armor stops the glancing blow from killing him!

A question from Mr. Doran Skalak about gravitic effects prompted me to ask an astrophysicist (Curtis Saxton) questions about high-speed rotations and relativistic effects: the following comments are my own attempts to explain what he told me, and I may have made any number of scientific errors.

In Model#6 there is a 'virtual' object ROTATING at the core of the blade, a forcefield of almost zero mass (I assume) which has a NON-MECAHNICAL induced spin applied at near lightspeed [c] to achieve the Zeldovich effect as described above.

Apparently, objects moving at near 'c' WILL undergo the mass-effects predicted by Einstein even if they have near zero mass, because the equations effect ENERGY, and mass is merely one form of energy. As a result, the spinning blade will NOT ONLY undergo gyroscopic resistance to changes in angular orientation (being waved around), but will ALSO suffer SOME DEGREE (unknown) of relativistic gravitic effects. In effect, the blade may acquire some 'virtual mass' - FROM the relative standpoint of the user.

Further, these effects will produce a form of 'event horizon' effect at the boundary (not incompatible with Zeldovich's 'virtual light' predictions I assume) which you would expect could account for the noise, the glow and the terrible destructive capabilities of the 'light' blade.

Sabres and Blasters related?

Now comes the REAL speculation! It was postulated in Model Three (Field contained plasmoids) that the Sabre beam may be related to the Blaster Bolt - as though the sabre were a 'static' gunshot, or more correctly, that the blaster bolt is a 'mobile sabre blade'. This is a fascinating idea, but it has a serious drawback ... there are instances in the films where damage is done BEFORE the visible part of the bolt arrives. The 'contained' model CANNOT explain this.

BUT the 'virtual light' model CAN. *IF* Blasters and sabres originate from the same principle technology, then blasters MAY be such 'spinning fields' which can exist for a time on their own, and can be projected along a vector (ie: fired!). Such a 'bolt' would indeed leave a TRAIL OF LIGHT in its wake! The 'damage' may well be done BEFORE the visible part of the bolt arrives!

Since a blaster is like a sabre, and since sabres block one-another, a sabre can block a blaster bolt! BUT this would be VERY VERY difficult to do because the sabre blade is so thin, and the blaster bolt so very fast!

A Turbolaser may be a rotating field of larger diameter. Perhaps such larger fields would retain their coherence for longer (after leaving the emitter) and thus have greater range. If the field integrity decays beyond a certain point, its rapid rotation may cause it to 'explode' beyond a certain distance from the emitter. This would explain the 'flak bursts' observed in the film when some shots miss their targets.

The asteroid hit by the Star Destroyer in TESB would first be 'drilled into' by the bolt, then exploded (vaporized in fact!) from within when the bolt's rotation collapsed - it would essentially have had its constituent atoms ripped apart from the inside out!

A possible VIRTUAL-LIGHT MODEL history of the lightsabre

Imagine the following: "Many many years ago, it was discovered that a powerful 'plasmoid-like' substance could be generated and held in place by a spinning field. A deadly blade of light was made which could 'chew' it way through almost any substance, leaving a very thin cut with signs of a burn. The very nature of the field meant that one field was thoroughly opaque to another. These blades could block one another, and the best defense against a blade, was another blade. The LIGHTSABRE was born. A powerful and noble weapon, it gave the advantage in hand-to-hand troops who (with high-density armor and perhaps even personal repulsor shields) were impervious to primitive slug-throwing weapons.

Much later, advances in the science of field technology allowed for a spinning 'virtual-light-generating' field to be DETACHED from its generator and flung out for quite some distance before it finally dissipated. The BLASTER was born! Only the most supremely skilled sabre-user could take advantage of the fact that a sabre could deflect a blaster bolt. The Jedi became the most prominent users of the lightsabre.

Later still, someone realized that if you fired a spinning field with a different set of settings (such that it didn't generate the deadly virtual light), you could still paralyze most sentients from the field charge alone. It was like firing a 'blank'. The STUN BOLT was born.

Military technicians discovered that the life (RANGE) and capacity (POWER) of the blaster bolt could be improved by enhancing the spin somehow - they applied a sort of 'turbo-charger' to the field. The TURBOLASER was born.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

 

 

 

Okay, I have to say that it is an even fight. If the Commando gets surprise, which is problematic and depends on which movie you're watching, he almost has the battle won hands down. A quick knife spot to a vital area and down goes the Jedi. If the Commando doesn't get surprise, the battle becomes a lot more interesting.

 

Even though the Jedi code prevents them from feeling anger, it apparently does not prevent them from killing en masse. Though to be fair, the droid army would hardly provide a moral quandry. I just don't see the Jedi having any problems with killing a soldier. So that equation is removed. On the other hand, the Jedi Mind Trick isn't going to work on the Commando. You never even see Obi-Wan try it on Jango, because he knows better. A run of the mill stormtrooper does not a commando make.

 

So, in the non-surprise scenario, it is Jedi training vs. Commando training. Hmmm. I have to give this one to the Jedi. In the absence of the primary weapon for each (gun or lightsaber), the Jedi would be much faster and that would be the deciding factor. Sure, the Commando has an edge over just about any non-Jedi. He is trained, conditioned and focused. Against the Jedi reflexes and ability to do one hell of a drop kick, he's going down. Maybe not easily, but he is going down. Couple that with the Jedi telekinesis ability and he just doesn't stand a chance. The Jedi doesn't even have to push or pull him. All he has to do is restrain him and the battle is over. Jedi wins. Doesn't even violate the stilted moral code.

 

Now, a face to face battle is not where Commando type units excel. It is subterfuge, ambush and using superior tactics. This is where the Jedi runs into problems. You see the Jedi in the prequels are arrogant. They depend on their superior mystical abilities. Heck, even Luke Skywalker does this in Return of the Jedi, when he walks into both Jabba's palace and Lord Vader's clutches. He is so confident in the Force that he forgets that he is mortal. This is where the Commando unit can use his training to the fullest. Ambushes, booby traps and coordinated attacks from superior tactical position and the Jedi is toast.

 

Nolgroth, I'm glad someone has finally taken the time to analyze this seriously.

 

First, I would contest that the Jedi are hypocritical for their callous killing of droids, because by Episode III many of the droids are self-aware and therefore "alive."

 

I completely agree on the point about the mind tricks.

 

A Jedi MAY be faster, but, I do not think (unless they were highly skilled in the use of the Force) that they would be able to maintain this advantage in the face of A) The fact that the average commando will have more sheer muscle power and the fact that once the commando gets a physical hold on the Jedi, they can't go ANYWHERE. Speed is negated. Leaving brawn. Also, the Jedi telekinesis would be of no use at close range. Because, all Jedi that I can remember seeing have relied upon gestures to help them focus and use their telekinesis. If a Jedi starts waving his hand towards the commando, once they are within arms' reach, the commando is just gonna grab his hand and snap it into a very unnatural angle.

 

Yes, they are extremely arrogant. Their biggest weakness.

 

 

-Greg:

 

I would give the Jedi 10:1 odds AGAINST them in hand-to-hand.

 

Why?

 

Because Jedi (to what I have seen from the movies ONLY, mind you) have NO hand-to-hand training.

 

That's right! The only close combat training they have is completely dependent upon: A) Having their saber or GETTING their saber.

 

They don't know how to punch, kick, block, break wrists, ANYTHING.

 

A commando does.

 

A lightsaber is completely useless once a commando is within arms' reach, because, like any sword, the cutting edge cannot be brought to bear. All the commando has to do is keep striking at those arms and pushing them to the side, and follow it up with strikes to critical organs etc while the Jedi's guard is opened.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Because Jedi (to what I have seen from the movies ONLY, mind you) have NO hand-to-hand training.

 

That's right! The only close combat training they have is completely dependent upon: A) Having their saber or GETTING their saber.

 

They don't know how to punch, kick, block, break wrists, ANYTHING.

 

A commando does.

 

A lightsaber is completely useless once a commando is within arms' reach, because, like any sword, the cutting edge cannot be brought to bear. All the commando has to do is keep striking at those arms and pushing them to the side, and follow it up with strikes to critical organs etc while the Jedi's guard is opened.

Actually, both Obi-Wan and Anakin show some unarmed skill, though in this category, Obi-wan seems to have more prowess. In Attack of the Clones, Obo-Wan clearly demonstrates some maneuvers, including a flying kick remniscient of Tae Kwon Do and fights Jango Fett unarmed through most of a close quarters combat. I would call the fight a draw, as Jango hopped into Slave-1 and flew off. In Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan again shows that he has some training when he (foolishly) tries to kick out General Greivous' leg. The technique and form are there.

 

I have to disagree with your supposition about lightsabers based on two observed details from the movies. The first is that lightsabers slice through flesh like warm butter. It wouldn't take a great deal of physical exertion to do the same to the commando. Then there is the style used by both Obi-Wan and Anakin during their big duel in which both Jedi used quick, close in maneuvers.

 

Also, the Jedi telekinesis would be of no use at close range. Because, all Jedi that I can remember seeing have relied upon gestures to help them focus and use their telekinesis. If a Jedi starts waving his hand towards the commando, once they are within arms' reach, the commando is just gonna grab his hand and snap it into a very unnatural angle.

Luke Skywalker was able to lift C3PO while having both hands bound. Now I will admit that he appeared to have to concentrate a little harder, so this may not be an appropriate defense in a hand to hand combat situation. (EDIT) Once again, in Revenge of the Sith, both Obi-Wan and Anakin used "gestures" that appeared to be a short open palmed strike. If that is all they need to send the Commando flying, then that also negates the assumption that a Jedi is incapable of hand to hand combat without his saber.

 

Still, I have to give the hand to hand to Jedi and I fear we may have to settle on an agree to disagree situation. On the other hand, while trained in close quarters combat, it's not the Commando's specialty. Ambush, deception, traps and surprise are. If the Commando has the time to plan a proper tactical battle, his training wins over Jedi arrogance.

[austenandrews]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Typist, I suggest you go back and watch the movies again. Of course you won't see Jedi doing Steven Seagal moves, because they're not that kind of movie. But it is never implied that combat-trained Jedi are anything less than competant at fisticuffs.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Actually' date=' both Obi-Wan and Anakin show some unarmed skill, though in this category, Obi-wan seems to have more prowess. In [i']Attack of the Clones[/i], Obo-Wan clearly demonstrates some maneuvers, including a flying kick remniscient of Tae Kwon Do and fights Jango Fett unarmed through most of a close quarters combat. I would call the fight a draw, as Jango hopped into Slave-1 and flew off. In Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan again shows that he has some training when he (foolishly) tries to kick out General Greivous' leg. The technique and form are there.

 

I have to disagree with your supposition about lightsabers based on two observed details from the movies. The first is that lightsabers slice through flesh like warm butter. It wouldn't take a great deal of physical exertion to do the same to the commando. Then there is the style used by both Obi-Wan and Anakin during their big duel in which both Jedi used quick, close in maneuvers.

 

 

Luke Skywalker was able to lift C3PO while having both hands bound. Now I will admit that he appeared to have to concentrate a little harder, so this may not be an appropriate defense in a hand to hand combat situation. (EDIT) Once again, in Revenge of the Sith, both Obi-Wan and Anakin used "gestures" that appeared to be a short open palmed strike. If that is all they need to send the Commando flying, then that also negates the assumption that a Jedi is incapable of hand to hand combat without his saber.

 

Still, I have to give the hand to hand to Jedi and I fear we may have to settle on an agree to disagree situation. On the other hand, while trained in close quarters combat, it's not the Commando's specialty. Ambush, deception, traps and surprise are. If the Commando has the time to plan a proper tactical battle, his training wins over Jedi arrogance.

 

 

Well, a few basic attempts do not constitute training.

 

Open palm strikes can be deflected, by turning them to the side.

 

However, since two people claim that they demonstrate more martial skill than I can recall, I will do as suggested and review the movies once more, specifically looking for instances of Jedi actually using their BODIES as weapons, sans lightsabers.

 

If I find I was incorrect, I will retract some of my statements.

 

I still say a commando fights smarter, and therefore could win. But it would have to be on conditions that they established. Fortunately, commandos are VERY good at doing that, while Jedi are not.

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Depending on what era you're talking about a commando may very well be force sensitive and could become a Jedi...or maybe that'd cause the SW universe to implode.

[Inu]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Because Jedi (to what I have seen from the movies ONLY, mind you) have NO hand-to-hand training.

 

That's right! The only close combat training they have is completely dependent upon: A) Having their saber or GETTING their saber.

Yes! Because we never saw it in the films, that means it didn't exist!

 

The characters also do not need to eat... well, Anakin does, but Obi-Wan apparently doesn't. Nor do any of them excrete any substance.

 

Therefore, all SW characters should buy 'need not eat'. And possibly reduced sleeping, because how often did we see that happen?

 

Seriously, if you have the choice between 'lightsabre' and 'punch', 9 out of 10 Jedi choose 'lightsabre'. It's a better choice. In the duels, we see them throwing punches and the like as secondary attacks. Often, force-enhanced punches (see Darth Maul vs Obi-Wan). The jedi clearly have more training than just 'use the force' - I mean, they start using lightsabres at age, what, six? To assume that they get by purely on force knowledge is nonsensical.

 

With lightsabre, 99% chance, jedi wins. We saw a 12-14 year old jedi apprentice fight off a half-dozen commandos for several seconds, even deflecting bolts back against a few. Add on ten or more years of experience, and there you have your basic jedi.

 

Yes, a commando vs unarmed Jedi would be able to put up a fight. As much because of their armour as anything else. But they're goin' down. And if the Jedi has their lightsabre, I'd like to see the commando try to get in that close.

[massey]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Luke trains by balancing himself on one hand with a 50 pound sack of Yoda standing on his foot. I'd say that requires more arm strength than your average commando. I've met commandos--I went to college with an Army Ranger. He was in great shape, but he's no Arnold Schwarzenegger.

 

Of course, that's not even talking about Jedi Wookies.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Yes! Because we never saw it in the films, that means it didn't exist!

 

The characters also do not need to eat... well, Anakin does, but Obi-Wan apparently doesn't. Nor do any of them excrete any substance.

 

Therefore, all SW characters should buy 'need not eat'. And possibly reduced sleeping, because how often did we see that happen?

 

Seriously, if you have the choice between 'lightsabre' and 'punch', 9 out of 10 Jedi choose 'lightsabre'. It's a better choice. In the duels, we see them throwing punches and the like as secondary attacks. Often, force-enhanced punches (see Darth Maul vs Obi-Wan). The jedi clearly have more training than just 'use the force' - I mean, they start using lightsabres at age, what, six? To assume that they get by purely on force knowledge is nonsensical.

 

With lightsabre, 99% chance, jedi wins. We saw a 12-14 year old jedi apprentice fight off a half-dozen commandos for several seconds, even deflecting bolts back against a few. Add on ten or more years of experience, and there you have your basic jedi.

 

Yes, a commando vs unarmed Jedi would be able to put up a fight. As much because of their armour as anything else. But they're goin' down. And if the Jedi has their lightsabre, I'd like to see the commando try to get in that close.

 

Um, wow, you sarcasm is cute, but since I stated that I was running strictly by movies........ at the very get go........ well, it's just completely nontopical.

 

Because, see, I'm sure in the books, there's plenty of reasons justifying why the Jedi in fact are NOT completely overrated.

 

Because, they are supposed to be well-rounded. They aren't. They arrogant. They are heavily trained in one area, not in another.

 

I never stated that if a commando faced a Jedi with a saber, starting at range, that they would win.

 

This is because a saber, though amazingly sexy, are completely cheap weapons. They are gankers. Whatever.

 

I only said that once within the saber reach, the commando would be in his turf.

 

My point is this: Jedi are not nearly as hardcore as they appear because: A) They rely too much upon the Force and They rely too much upon their lightsabers.

 

Two-trick ponies.

 

And Massey?

 

No. Luke's PT training, though admirable, and certainly more grueling than anything I could probably take, is nothing compared to what a truly elite commando goes through.

 

You raise a point. I have never seen a Jedi wookie. Why is that?

[massey]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Perhaps you should specify which type of commandos you're talking about. As I said, I know a few special forces guys, and, while tough dudes (I wouldn't mess with them), they aren't near the level of fictional action heroes, let alone Jedi.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Well, a few basic attempts do not constitute training.

 

Open palm strikes can be deflected, by turning them to the side.

Yes, but these "few basic attempts" do indicate the presence of some sort of training. Anybody can throw a kick or attempt a sweep maneuver, but these were all remniscent of actual martial arts. Admittedly, I'm no black belt, but I have taken some martial arts here and there.

 

In regards to the deflecting an open palm strike, you are correct and in turn, a Jedi could come up with something else.

 

However, since two people claim that they demonstrate more martial skill than I can recall, I will do as suggested and review the movies once more, specifically looking for instances of Jedi actually using their BODIES as weapons, sans lightsabers.

If the movies are purely where you draw your information from, then the Commando units we have seen, specifically clone warriors and the ice troopers on Hoth, never indicated the ability to fight unarmed. They ran around with blaster rifles and some sort of polymer armor. Mind you they are very good at using those blasters and I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a "fire for effect" maneuver.

 

Chances are, and please correct me if I am wrong, you are drawing on knowledge concerning commando units that are outside the scope of observable behavior from the movies. That's okay, but expect that others will also do so.

 

If I find I was incorrect, I will retract some of my statements.

I would never expect you to do so on my behalf. I think your position is an arguable one and I have chosen to argue the opposite side.

 

I still say a commando fights smarter, and therefore could win. But it would have to be on conditions that they established. Fortunately, commandos are VERY good at doing that, while Jedi are not.

And this is where we agree. If the commando can dictate the terms of battle, then he stands a huge chance of succeeding. A much larger chance than, say, the two of them meeting in an alley and starting a fist fight.

 

In terms of sheer physical strength, the Jedi are very acrobatic. That leads to very compact and efficient muscles. The commando would probably have a similar muscular structure; lean, compact and powerful muscles. Pull-ups, push-ups and other conditioning exercises would most certainly make them strong. I think the two would have such similar "generic" physical characteristics that raw physical prowess would be reduced to which individual just happened to be more conditioned.

 

On the other hand, the Jedi have a boost in terms of using the force, not only for speed, but also for accuracy. This is established in the conversation between Gui Gon Jinn and Anakin where they are talking about the reflexes required to race the pod racers. Luke Skywalker, of course, used this same accuracy to hit a small target that a sophisticated computer targeting system couldn't. While both these instances were translated through a vehicular medium, I see no reason why it wouldn't also reflect their ability in open hand combat. It certainly translates into their ability to reflect blaster bolts with the lightsaber.

 

Now, all of my arguments have reflected a basic human type commando and a basic human type jedi. An augmented commando, say genetically engineered or cybernetically enhanced, would have better odds than one without such advantages. A non-human, such as a trandoshan or wookie stands a higher chance than the unaugmented human as well.

 

And to the question of why no wookie jedi. I have to shrug and ask why no trandoshan, ithorian, or some of the other races we see in the cantina scenes. Maybe there are or were, but they are not portrayed on screen.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Yes, but these "few basic attempts" do indicate the presence of some sort of training. Anybody can throw a kick or attempt a sweep maneuver, but these were all remniscent of actual martial arts. Admittedly, I'm no black belt, but I have taken some martial arts here and there.

 

In regards to the deflecting an open palm strike, you are correct and in turn, a Jedi could come up with something else.

 

 

If the movies are purely where you draw your information from, then the Commando units we have seen, specifically clone warriors and the ice troopers on Hoth, never indicated the ability to fight unarmed. They ran around with blaster rifles and some sort of polymer armor. Mind you they are very good at using those blasters and I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a "fire for effect" maneuver.

 

Chances are, and please correct me if I am wrong, you are drawing on knowledge concerning commando units that are outside the scope of observable behavior from the movies. That's okay, but expect that others will also do so.

 

I would never expect you to do so on my behalf. I think your position is an arguable one and I have chosen to argue the opposite side.

 

And this is where we agree. If the commando can dictate the terms of battle, then he stands a huge chance of succeeding. A much larger chance than, say, the two of them meeting in an alley and starting a fist fight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

True.

 

Agreed.

 

Point.

 

No, you are exactly right, and this is a huge flaw in my reasoning which I will try to clarify.

 

If I'm wrong, I'm gonna tell ya I'm wrong. At least, if you convince me that I am wrong. Anything else and I would be a prick.

 

Ok, that is hilarious. "So a Jedi and commando meet in an alley and..." Repped.

 

I guess my whole point is that I was using real life perceptions of commandos, and conceptions of what possible advancements in training would be made by the time of the Star Wars universe, to argue the viewpoint that although Jedi are indubitably not something to be trifled with, I think commandos are better trained.

 

Now, as I have only really seen the movies when it comes to Star Wars... that is all I have to operate on.

 

See, I believe that Jedi are amazingly sexy as a concept (Note: I have a habit of using the word sexy to mean "cool." Unless it is actually sensual, in which case it is SEXY, and it is also automaticaly sexy as well. ), I think that their typical representation on screen really doesn't live up to what I believe it could be, nor what I have been lead to believe by talking to some truly hardcore Star Wars fans (who have read most of the books etc).

 

Thus, I think that as presented on screen, a commando's training (from something more real life based) is far more grueling, comprehensive, and balanced than a Jedi's.

 

And that just don't sound right to me.

[ApocalypseZero]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to try to play the 'Who will win?' scenerio for this little topic, but one thing I've learned is that nothing ever goes how you'd think it. Who's to say that the Jedi missed his blaster reflection and is thus, caught by the resulting shot? In the same terms, a commando could 'pull grenade, throw pin'. What I am saying is that unless the situation is presented, talk is nothing.

 

Now, that being said, there are several instances where Jedi are mowed down by blaster fire. Some of them are illogical (Revenge of the Sith's 'Order 66' scenes), some of them seem possible (Attack of the Clones's 'Arena' scene, which saw many Jedi, including Masters, gunned down), and then beyond the movies. The problem the movies have (as with all movies) is that the Main Character (who are Jedi in Star Wars films) are potentially invulnerable. Do I need to quote Kenobi's words about Stormtrooper training and point out their lack of when shooting at Han, all in the same film? (A New Hope) This is where people need to let go of the movies and see what's really going on.

 

Jedi are just like everyone else. The Force does not make them automatic winners in combat. That being said, they are not 'One Trick Ponies' (as someone above said). In fact, Jedi laws strictly say that the Saber and Force are to only be used once all other avenues are exhausted. Even against Dark Jedi/Sith, a Jedi is suppose to try to understand and convince, not attack and destroy. So many see Jedi as Soldiers, when they are Diplomats with training. I think the best comparison for Jedi are Martial Artist today. Taught never to use their skills to harm, but in self defense.

 

As for a game, I think that the player Jedi Knights should be at least on par with Soldiers/Fighters of non-Jedi, at least in terms of Melee Combat.

 

As for Alien Jedi, there are many. In the movies, only Mace Windu was human on the Master Council. And for Wookie Jedi, I only know of Lowbacca (sp?) in the New Jedi Era. Wookie rage is one of the keys to making a Wookie Jedi, because one would have to have complete control over it.

 

If you would like more information, I like the Star Wars Database. I don't have a link, but put that in a search engine and you should be fine. The site even breaks things down from Movies to Expanded Universe.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to try to play the 'Who will win?' scenerio for this little topic' date=' but one thing I've learned is that nothing ever goes how you'd think it. Who's to say that the Jedi missed his blaster reflection and is thus, caught by the resulting shot? In the same terms, a commando could 'pull grenade, throw pin'. What I am saying is that unless the situation is presented, talk is nothing.[/quote']Well, I think both Manic Typist and myself both agree that this little scenario was argued specifically from the point of view that both the Jedi and Commando were unarmed and at point blank range. "Presenting the situation" becomes harder, as the movies are all wrapped up and anything written and/or produced is going to be biased towards the authors preference. Even a roleplaying game can be skewed towards author preference.

 

The problem the movies have (as with all movies) is that the Main Character (who are Jedi in Star Wars films) are potentially invulnerable. Do I need to quote Kenobi's words about Stormtrooper training and point out their lack of when shooting at Han, all in the same film? (A New Hope)

This is a convention of most ficticious material. Wouldn't be much of a story if the protagonist(s) was/were killed before the story really got rolling now would it.

 

This is where people need to let go of the movies and see what's really going on.

Ahh, but the movies are our one source of "canon" material upon which we base our arguments. We could go to the novels, which I've only read a few (namely Timothy Zahn's series with Grand Admiral Thrawn) or the Extended Universe, but without a comparable reading/video game list, that extra source information is practically useless.

 

In fact, Jedi laws strictly say that the Saber and Force are to only be used once all other avenues are exhausted. Even against Dark Jedi/Sith, a Jedi is suppose to try to understand and convince, not attack and destroy. So many see Jedi as Soldiers, when they are Diplomats with training. I think the best comparison for Jedi are Martial Artist today. Taught never to use their skills to harm, but in self defense.

Totally off topic from the Commando vs. Jedi sub-thread, but I wanted to comment on this. I truly wish that I could have seen that aspect of the Jedi during the prequels. All I saw is an instaneous reaction to draw lightsaber and attack, like when Anakin dropped back into the elevator in Revenge of the Sith . Maybe before the Clone Wars, there was a time when this was true, but after the Seperatist Movement, the Jedi were warriors and even carried rank (for example General Kenobi).

 

Speaking of the sub-thread. I really did not mean to co-opt the thread. If y'all like I can start a new one. There is some relevence here, but I'm not sure if it follows the main idea of the thread.

[austenandrews]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Mind you, I've always been in the "Jedi are not gods" camp. I always saw them as equivalent to knights in a medieval setting - they're tough guys but not the only ones, not unlike "commandoes" in the real world. At the same time, I would never say that knights are wimps in unarmed fighting.

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

A lot of the source material focuses on the fall of the Jedi so we're seeing a slanted view of them. At that point in time in RotS they were hypocritical and took themselves a little too seriously. That's basically the whole conflict in KOTOR2 as well since the Jedi were sitting idly by during the Mandalorian wars. I think Jedi should need to take some sort of honor code as a disadvantage, but the way they act on that should make a pretty interesting role-playing experience. If you transplanted them into the movie Equilibrium the Sith would be the good guys. The Jedi have to somehow be compassionate about the people around them yet at the same time not be empathetic with others and instead shield their emotions.

[ApocalypseZero]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

And hence, where I seem to have the problem with Light/Dark side in a game. Because the basis of the Light side is almost against what most (all) RPG's seem to provide for players. Face it, the game had roots in 'Slaying the Dragon', something against the Jedi nature. So, in the beginning, the setting will most likely be flawed or need to be flexible for a dark/neutral feel.

 

I also want to point out that I made a post that finally got placed and should be on Page 4 about HERO System rules and Star Wars Entities being converted into it. For those looking to this for that, please check it out and comment.

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

But in Star Wars the Republic is EVIL so there's nothing really to keep a Jedi from going against them. There's not really in grey area in the Lucas universe so it's simply good vs. evil. In KOTOR 1&2 it's different because there are neutral Jedi in both games. If Lucas had written those then those 2 Jedi would be sliding to the dark side because they're actively rejecting the Jedi code. From an RPG perspective a Jedi isn't all that different from a D&D paladin. Anything on a grander scale is decided by the Jedi Souncil and a Jedi then needs to follow whatever they say to be "lawful". The hardest part is like the intro to the game Ultima 6. How would a Jedi respond to:

 

Thou hast been sent to secure a needed treaty with a distant Lord. Thy host is agreeable to the proposal but insults thy country at dinner. Dost thou:

* Bear the slurs

* Rise and demand an apology

 

A local bully pushes for a fight. Dost thou:

* Decline, knowing that no lasting good will come of it

* Trounce the rogue

 

Thou art sworn to uphold a Lord who participates in the forbidden torture of prisoners. Each night their cries of pain reach thee. Dost thou:

* Keep thine oath and ignore the deeds

* Report the deeds

 

Thy friend seeks admittance to thy Spiritual order. Thou art asked to vouch for his purity of Spirit, of which thou art unsure. Dost thou:

* Vouch for him, hoping for his improvement

* Express thy doubt

 

There aren't clear answers to any of those. The Jedi has to choose his alliance with the council or to what he thinks is right. I'm sure some are going to have what they *know* to be right. That's probably what is going to make a Jedi so interesting to play.

 

PS: here's a link to all the question from U6 - http://www.tk421.net/ultima/ they could all make for interesting hooks once modified.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

And hence' date=' where I seem to have the problem with Light/Dark side in a game. Because the basis of the Light side is almost against what most (all) RPG's seem to provide for players. Face it, the game had roots in 'Slaying the Dragon', something against the Jedi nature. So, in the beginning, the setting will most likely be flawed or need to be flexible for a dark/neutral feel.[/quote']The Lucas morality for the Jedi is pretty pathetic. Like you, I don't particularly care for it. You cannot get angry? Ever? This Jedi code subscribes to a completely unrealistic world view that is unhealthy and stifling to basic human emotions. Indeed, it is not the presence of anger or hate or love that defines us, it is how we cope with those emotions. The Jedi seem to be forbidden from feeling anything. At least for the humans in the lot, that is a surer way to evil than by feeling.

[Nevenall]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

The Lucas morality for the Jedi is pretty pathetic. Like you' date=' I don't particularly care for it. You cannot get angry? Ever? This Jedi code subscribes to a completely unrealistic world view that is unhealthy and stifling to basic human emotions. Indeed, it is not the presence of anger or hate or love that defines us, it is how we cope with those emotions. The Jedi seem to be forbidden from feeling anything. At least for the humans in the lot, that is a surer way to evil than by feeling.[/quote']

 

The new Lord of Sith made that same point to one of the Jedi in my Jedi Academy Campaign. He even wondered why the two Order could not be recombined. "We have much to teach each other." but the question is was he saying that because he believed it or was he subverting the truth to turn the Jedi to the Dark side.

 

I think the emotionless attitude is one reason the Old Order failed. A gradual diminishing of true wisdom replaced by commands.

You can't remove emotions, but the Force gives you the strength to not be Ruled by them.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I think the emotionless attitude is one reason the Old Order failed. A gradual diminishing of true wisdom replaced by commands.

You can't remove emotions, but the Force gives you the strength to not be Ruled by them.

Hmm. I took this a whole different way. I took it as the Force fed off and amplified emotions. That is why anger becomes such a destructive, er...force. It was the disciplinary training that the Jedi taught that kept their emotions under lock and key. It would be interesting to see how poweful the Force would feed into a positive emotion, such as love. I don't believe that, in a Lucas controlled script, any emotion could be a positive thing. But I could imagine somebody who isn't jealous and weighed down with feelings of inadequacy could channel feelings of love through the Force with great effect. This whole line of thought makes me wonder if the Jedi do really suppress emotion. Could the courage that the average Jedi feel be amplified through the Force to make them completely fearless. I also wonder if the Jedi fear of the Dark Side led them to subconsciously set the path towards their own destruction. I am going way out on this one and I need to think about it a little bit more.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

The Jedi destroyed themselves with their flawed beliefs, or their failure to hold true to aspects of those beliefs when they really should have.

 

Kind of tragic, but also just really irksome. It wasn't made to be tragic, it was just completely ignored, thus making them hypocrites to me.