Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

[Greg]

After playing KOTOR2 my group and I are itching to play some Star Wars and since I've already taught them Hero we're not going to change systems. I've got some ideas that I think work well, but I haven't seen anything quite like this mentioned in the plethora of lightsaber and Jedi writeups.

 

I'm going to propose that characters use most of the super-heroic guidlines for character creation. Any Jedi from the movies is going to be expensive and the only way to make a lightsaber remotely balance is to make the player pay for it with points. Further, our lightsaber build is somewhere around 60 real points, plus the force VPP is around 100 so we're talking pretty high-powered characters. So for now let's just say 350 point characters.

 

However, Jedi force powers aside nobody, including Jedi, are super characters in terms of stats. So my second part of the proposal is observing NCM and "requesting" that some percentage of points be put into equipment. For the Jedi that'll be their lightsaber, for a smuggler it's going to be a ship and their wookie. I think that leads to Jedi who are relatively naked beyond their powers and swords and at the same time lets others balance themselves with ships, bases and followers.

 

For some reason the above seems sort of un-hero by laying out point guidlines, but the end result seems to be pretty much perfect. Does anyone have a campaign where they did something similar and are there problems with having non-super supers?

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I've never done anything like this, but it sounds really well balanced and perfect. Forces the players to get lots of skills and contacts and resources that they wouldn't otherwise get. Some cybernetic reconstruction... Man, that seems brilliant!

[Baphomet Jones]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Those extra points will also help them out paying for droids, or the dozens of languages they'd need to understand just to have a conversation in a bar.

 

One idea that we had in a tentative Star Wars campaign was to have each player make one Jedi (at a superheric point level), and one or more heroic level characters. At that point the adventures would be structured like the movies, where the Jedis would have to face The Big Menace, and the other heroes would have to focus on the "nail missions" to insure they succeeded (rescuing people, blowing up shield generators/droid control ships and whatnot). Play would shift between each group scene by scene as each neared their goal and the whole thing came together for the big explosion, or lightsaber duel at the end. While this isnt really an idea for balancing the "super" and heroic level characters, everyone would have a Jedi character that would get to be in the spotlight at some point for the big saber duel, lessening the feeling of being overshadowed.

[Nevenall]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Sounds like a promising interesting. There's no reason a heroic character can't be build on whatever points you want, and it's important for the GM to set point buying guidelines in any game.

 

I never had to deal what balancing non-Force users, everyone in my Jedi Acadamy Campaign is a Jedi. What I did was to divide the cost of all Force powers that aren't skills by 3.

 

Here is a list of setting conversions to Hero, might help you get a head start.

Lord Liaden's List of Lots of Links

 

Have fun!

[Lucius]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Your initial idea sounds fine to me, if I understood it correctly. I don't think setting out the kind of points guidelines you're talking about is any more "un-Hero" than limiting damage classes or active points or any other campaign guidelines. And you can always waive them if someone has an idea that just doesn't fit, but that you still think will work as a character!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

You'd be surprised at where I can fit a palindromedary...

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Great, it's good to see I'm not completely coming out of left field. To ease in players I'm going to write-up templates for:

 

bounty hunter - combat/gadgeteer VPP

smuggler - lots of rogue type skills/jack of all trades

droid - a couple different models, but mainly tech skills and some gadgets

jedi - the obvious, but will probably be the most work since I want to spell out their powers so as not to abuse their VPP: Force

 

any other good archetypes I'm missing? Maybe mercenary, soldier or ambassador.

[Jaxom]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Well, to swipe from the d20 SW system, there are flavors of Jedi. Counselor, guardian (warrior) and pilot. There's also the non-Jedi force sensative group.

 

Soldiers (think Stormtrooper or possibly Bounty Hunter), Scoundrel or Fringer (Smugglers, both with different flavor), Droid (although this becomes a huge category all by itself if you are letting PCs be droids instead of taking them as henchmen), Noble (Ambassador), Tech Specialist (Mechanic), Scout (Chewbacca falls into this category).

 

StarWars also allows cross-classing. Being a force-sensative soldier is one way of coming at being a bounty hunter. Being a Scoundrel is another. Tech is not necessarily a requirement.

 

I'd come at this from a slightly different perspective though...

 

Ambassadors should spend a load of points on contacts and skills and probably one or more droid henchmen (unless they are force sensative which will eat many of those points).

 

Smugglers should be spending points on skills and a ship (base). It is possible for multiple characters to contribute to a single ship.

 

I am assuming that the Jedi VPP is going to be a cosmic VPP. Once you're there, you may have a problem limiting how it gets used. You might be better off making it a Multipower so that players have to take (and hence specify) the power stunts that they can use. This would also allow you to predefine the kinds of powerstunts that are allowed. It'll also help you figure out how many force tricks they can keep up at once (might have to drop the droid while lifting the star-fighter).

 

Soldiers and Bounty Hunters could be gadget based (get ready to read up on power armor focii builds) or more skills and equipment (like laser blasters and stuff).

 

You might also want to define specific martial forms for different groups like Jedi (lightsaber form) and Stormtroopers (Imperial combat training).

 

 

Generally speaking, though, I don't see a lot of need to do all this work if you trust your players to build something that fits the setting. If your players are relatively new to the system (only built one character so far?) then you might want to propose some of these ideas for them to chew on.

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

It's basically going to be a VPP with the limitation 'learned powers.' I was going with the idea of a multipower for awhile, but the my co-GM really wants the flexibility of a VPP. I can go either way, but see advantages of either way.

[Guest Admiral C]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

So my second part of the proposal is observing NCM and "requesting" that some percentage of points be put into equipment. For the Jedi that'll be their lightsaber' date=' for a smuggler it's going to be a ship and their wookie. [/quote']

 

A wookie classified as equipment? Now wonder their so bad tempered.

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Yeah, I didn't want to diss Chewie, but he didn't even get a medal at the end of A New Hope which kind of seems to prove my theory.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Heh. I personally think ALL games should be ‘superheroic.’ Free equipment messes the whole system up.

 

Besides, characters in 90% of genere fiction DON’T swap their equipment kit out every three episodes. Just let them ‘radiation accident’ their equipment points as needed.

 

And RPGs in general are far, far too ‘stuff’ based.

 

So, short version, I agree with your plan.

 

---

The problem is partially source material, though. Jedi ARE just plain more powerful than the non-jedi equivalent . . . and the equipment thing only sorta solves it. It doesn’t matter to the rest of the party that the ship ‘belongs’ to the Smuggler if they can all use it, so the Smuggler is effectively about 30 points weaker than everyone else.

[Phil]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

However' date=' Jedi force powers aside nobody, including Jedi, are super characters in terms of stats. So my second part of the proposal is observing NCM and "requesting" that some percentage of points be put into equipment. [/quote']

 

I like the equipment idea, but something else you can do to enforce balance is increase the NCM multiple. At the moment, high attributes are just so damned cost effective. In my fantasy game, I upped char maxima for different races to allow exceptional ability, but made upto 5 points above NCM cost x 3, and upto 10 points above NCM cost x6. Possible for players who want to be truly outstanding, but it becomes a significant investment.

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I was thinking about making 20 a hard limit at character creation, higher/lower based on race, then just having the standard x2 after that. It's a lot harder to bite that x2 bullet with the 2-3xp you might have gotten from a game session.

 

I'm still torn on how to handle race packages. If the net gain from a racial package is 0 should it count against your point total? Plus, should stat adjustments be +3 STR or say +3 STR Max? It's always been a hard one for me in Hero since theres nothing that really makes a Wookie (PC character) stronger then a human PC other then they spent more points.

[UltraRob]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I was thinking about making 20 a hard limit at character creation, higher/lower based on race, then just having the standard x2 after that. It's a lot harder to bite that x2 bullet with the 2-3xp you might have gotten from a game session.

 

I'm still torn on how to handle race packages. If the net gain from a racial package is 0 should it count against your point total? Plus, should stat adjustments be +3 STR or say +3 STR Max? It's always been a hard one for me in Hero since theres nothing that really makes a Wookie (PC character) stronger then a human PC other then they spent more points.

 

A better way to handle it, given that Star Wars is supposed to be a sort of infinite fantasy setting is rather than worry about racial packages let the PCs make their own "races". The simplest way to do it is this:

 

Allow each PC to have:

 

1 "exceptional" stat that caps at 30. ( for main stats, should they wish to buy it that high)

1 "impressive" stat that caps at 25 (ditto)

1 "dude!" stat that caps at 20 (same same)

and everything else caps at 15. (except figureds, of course)

 

They can't buy anything over those numbers, except maybe with experience, and at X2 cost.

 

Then let them go wild, within your sense of reason anyway.

 

You could even say that they can trade one of those "high" stat maxes in for a "power", like Flight, or regeneration, or body armour that they couldn't normally have. That "spot" then becomes Max 15.

 

Now you can have an alien assassin whose 30 DEX lets them walk next to the Jedi, or a Chewbacca that can lift a cargo container. They just have to explain their exceptional stats, and now they can do whatever they want in terms of character creation. (yes, it's possible they'll all drop the 30 into DEX, but that's the chance you take, and they do blow a huge amount of points on it.)

 

Rob

[Lezentauw]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Heh. I personally think ALL games should be ‘superheroic.’ Free equipment messes the whole system up.

 

Besides, characters in 90% of genere fiction DON’T swap their equipment kit out every three episodes. Just let them ‘radiation accident’ their equipment points as needed.

 

And RPGs in general are far, far too ‘stuff’ based.

 

So, short version, I agree with your plan.

 

---

The problem is partially source material, though. Jedi ARE just plain more powerful than the non-jedi equivalent . . . and the equipment thing only sorta solves it. It doesn’t matter to the rest of the party that the ship ‘belongs’ to the Smuggler if they can all use it, so the Smuggler is effectively about 30 points weaker than everyone else.

 

As another possibility, you could use the resource points as suggested from Dark Champions.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I say it all looks good. Go for it. Good Luck let us know how it goes.

[Mr. Negative]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I think you've got a fine handle on the situation. You might want to make everybody pay for all of their gear, and not just the Jedi. Then the bounty hunter with cool armor doesn't get a boost over the smuggler. It also explains why people don't seem to lug gear all over the place, but instead just carry a blaster.

 

Also, your "non-jedi" characters, in addition to paying for vehicles and droids and contacts (and bases, don't forget bases) can load up on those cool powers that reflect Star Wars so well, such as Luck, Combat Luck, and all those neat builds that allow them to run through Stormtrooper fire with only a scorch, while others die in droves.

 

I don't think that Jedi are automatically more powerful than everyone else, IF you make them pay for resources and gear. Sure, the Jedi is more powerful than the little old smuggler, but what about the smuggler with a blaster, a souped up hyderdrive freighter, contacts over the entire galaxy, and multiple hidey-holes? The others may get to use those contacts, bases, and vehicles, but a properly-motivated smuggler will never let them forget exactly who saved their bacon (or who's captain of the Falcon).

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Yeah, everybody would have to pay for equipment. I'd still like money to be a driving force for certain types of characters so I need to come up with some incentive to those archetypes. This project has gotten a little derailed though because of players wanting to play dark side and some arguments over the nature of the force. I guess that's just what happens when you try something so close to certain fans. Once I get to lay all this out on paper though i'll hopefully bring this to some fruition.

[austenandrews]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I think balancing character points is way overrated.

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Most of the members of my group come from a Rifts background and I feel they need structure in their lives after such abuse.

[CSgeekHero]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Great job, Greg.

 

This gives me plenty of help for my own Star Wars ideas.

 

Plus, notice that Jedi are balanced to non-Jedi in points while keeping the Star Wars flavor. Unlike the now defunct official versions, your decription has a Star Wars feel.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I know I'm inviting myself to get flammed hard but...

 

In my OPINION... which I think I have come to reasonbly........ based off of MOVIE Jedi (it's been a while since I've read ANY Jedi literature)....

 

I think a well-trained commando could rip a Jedi to pieces. Once he got within arm's reach.

 

Thoughts?

[austenandrews]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Depends on the Jedi. Adventurer Jedi like OWK, QGJ and the Skywalkers will slug it out with anyone. Obviously there are librarians and bureaucrats and whatnot who are less capable in close combat.

[Nevenall]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I know I'm inviting myself to get flammed hard but...

 

In my OPINION... which I think I have come to reasonbly........ based off of MOVIE Jedi (it's been a while since I've read ANY Jedi literature)....

 

I think a well-trained commando could rip a Jedi to pieces. Once he got within arm's reach.

 

Thoughts?

 

You mean mano a mano? I think the commando would find his manos on the flooro real quick.

 

There is always ambushes and explosives, that tends to even the score.

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

The EU balances things a bit by having a composite material that can reflect lightsabers. As well as KOTOR, which has personal force fields. In the g-canon universe a trooper may not be able to take a Jedi, but they're going to have an array of blasters and grenades that'll put them one up against crowds or against vehicles.