Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Sorry, I completely forgot I posted here! Haha!

 

Anyway. I think that most commandos could take on most Jedi. Why you ask?

 

Jedi can't fight worth a shiny nickle.

 

Seriously! Think about it. They have been given completely unstopabble weapons. So, they just need enough hand eye coordination to NOT hit themselves, and they can slaughter everything that moves (and most things that don't)!

 

No skill. The only time Jedi display any real martial skill is when fighting other Jedi, and maybe when they are deflecting lasers. But, that's more because of the Force anyway.

 

Also, I would be intersted in seeing what a solid slug would do if hit by a Jedi laser. I think it would just slide through it, with some damage, and impact into the fleshyness beneath.

 

But, once within arms reach (I.E. within the reach of the god-killing sabers)...... Jedi can't do jack. Their Force powers are virtually useless, and any decent commando would be able to deflect them. The commandos would use joint locks, strikes, and breaks to basically dismantle the Jedi piece by piece.

 

It would be hilarious to watch.

[starblaze]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

The EU balances things a bit by having a composite material that can reflect lightsabers. As well as KOTOR' date=' which has personal force fields. In the g-canon universe a trooper may not be able to take a Jedi, but they're going to have an array of blasters and grenades that'll put them one up against crowds or against vehicles.[/quote']

 

Pardon me but what is KOTOR and EU?

[Chuckg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

KOTOR -- Knights of the Old Republic, the Lucasfilm-sanctioned Xbox/PC game set in the distant past of the SW universe. (Specifically, 40 years after the fall of Exar Kun.)

 

EU -- Expanded Universe, aka the tie-in novels and video games.

 

Plug: KOTOR is the shiznit, with a storyline and characterization better than most SW *movies*. KOTOR II is decidedly less so, sadly.

[BlackSword]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Pardon me but what is KOTOR and EU?

KOTOR = Knights of the Old Republic : There were two computer games that came out in the past few years under the title. They were both well done and told during the Madalorian Wars era and the Rise of the Sith. Didn't play the first. I played the sequal and it deals with rebuilding the Republic that is on death's door and the main character is the 'last' of the jedi.

 

EU = Expanded Univrese: This is the shelf of books at Barnes and Nobles with Star Wars in the title. (also includes all games and comics). Varying degrees of writer ability. There is some editorial policy on the whole, but I personally think its similar to Forgotten Realms, at the beginning when it was small it was good, then they flooded the market.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Bah. All you need to take down a Jedi is a shotgun. Make it a flechette cannon if you want to sound sci-fi.

[austenandrews]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Let me know how that works out for you.

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I don't get the idea that there are bullets in the Star Wars universe. Even Bowcasters (Wookie crossbows) shoot energy. I suppose a horde of Ewoks could chuck slingbolts at Jedi though the Jedi could probably just hold his hand up and they'd probably all stop in mid-air. I'd probably rule they could stop a bullet though because otherwise all Bounty Hunters would be sporting six-shooters.

 

No idea if Jedi get hand-to-hand training, but KOTOR2 give them all sorts of non-weapon fighting ability. I'd just leave it as an option to the player though they're probably going to be faster on foot then a normal commando.

 

And I told myself I wouldn't debate this kind of stuff.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

See, I bet solid slug weapons would be mostly unheard of except on the most backwards of planets because of their inherent limitations: weight restirctions, lower ammo counts, ability to misfire, noise, etc.

 

Most places, laser weapons could be made with relatively little cost.

 

So, it would be unusual for someone to come after a Jedi with a solid slug weapon. But I think that is part of their weakness. They are built to defeat only ONE type of situation: the universe that they are used to. They really aren't as adaptable as they are made out to be.

 

And I think a good commando could move nearly as fast as a Jedi, and hit a whole lot harder and a whole lot smarter.

[Brother Jim]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

years ago i played in an Alternity game that was a "universes colliding" type of game. several players had characters native to the star drive setting for alternity, several had jedi and i had a cybertronic chasseur from mutant chronicles/warzone. the bad guys were usually dark jedi...

 

 

dark jedi don't do too well against a gatling gun being used by someone with a really high heavy weapons skill

 

at least they didn't in that setting, using those rules. an AP cap would probably prevent a gatling gun from being legal, but then most assault rifles are also "out of bounds".

[austenandrews]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Typist, are you forgetting the part in Attack of the Clones where a saberless Obi-Wan dukes it out with ubercommando Jango Fett, while the latter is wearing armor? How about the scene in Revenge of the Sith where Obi-Wan flings General Grievous against the wall with a wave of his hand? Your hypothesis is cute and all, but it just don't bear out.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Typist' date=' are you forgetting the part in Attack of the Clones where a saberless Obi-Wan dukes it out with ubercommando Jango Fett, while the latter is wearing armor? How about the scene in Revenge of the Sith where Obi-Wan flings General Grievous against the wall with a wave of his hand? Your hypothesis is cute and all, but it just don't bear out.[/quote']

 

Um, I don't remember the first part, so maybe I should rewatch.

 

And the second one? It barely phased General Grievous, Grievous was a complete wimp, and it was used at a more medium range.

 

My "cute" theory has Jedi being made into gimps by commandos once within arm reach.

 

Because the all light Jedi powers are USELESS at close range.

[LordGhee]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

one of the champion group here in town did a Jedi game.

 

150 pts and light sabre 2 d6 kill penatrating.

 

3 picked to be jedi, 3 picked the fighter jock, the engineer, con man.

 

played a few games and they had a great time and no one felt that the Jedi dominated the game. jedi powers where what the players felt them to be with frameworks, some of the orther players had psionics, devices (powers0 ect.

 

anther example of man this system works.

[massey]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Jedi can leap 40' into the air. Good luck getting into hand to hand.

Jedi can control minds. "I'm not the one you're looking for."

Jedi can see the future. Good luck ambushing them.

 

Commandos are basically stormtroopers in camoflage.

[Corver]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

The only reason you only see jedi in close combat with other jedi is because other jedi are the only ones who can get close enough. Blaster fire is obviously no threat to a jedi. As for who would win, Jedi or Commando? A jedi is usually discovered as a child and then spends the REST OF HIS/HER LIFE training. No four year stint in the military is going to prepare you to go hand to hand with a Shau Lin monk. Jedi are raised from early childhood to be masters of themselves, the force, and close combat.

[El Tripon]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

 

one of the champion group here in town did a Jedi game.

 

150 pts and light sabre 2 d6 kill penatrating.

 

QUOTE]

 

I was a player in this game. It's currently on Hiatus as a backup game when the others stall.

 

Each Jedi chose a different route to achieve our "Jediness." We had one using a multi-power base, another chose an elemental control base and I chose a 45 point VPP with a 0-phase power change. My GM trusted me to not abuse this pool and I have not.

 

I was quickly established as the Master Jedi with the other two as Jedi. I didn't really out point them, I was more versitile.

 

We found we could do what has been seen in the movies with 150 pt characters.

 

Good luck on your campaign when it gets started.

[El Tripon]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Arrgh. I never can get those stupid grey quote boxes to work right.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Arrgh. I never can get those stupid grey quote boxes to work right.

 

Just make sure that the opening QUOTE statement is surrounded by brackets and the end /QUOTE is also surrounded by brackets. Bracket = []

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I know I'm inviting myself to get flammed hard but...

 

In my OPINION... which I think I have come to reasonbly........ based off of MOVIE Jedi (it's been a while since I've read ANY Jedi literature)....

 

I think a well-trained commando could rip a Jedi to pieces. Once he got within arm's reach.

 

Thoughts?

 

Flamed? Naw. In Revenge of the Sith the Jedi got taken down like a bunch of crippled kindergarteners facing a regiment of tanks. How could you come to any conclusion but the one you did?

 

Of course, I remember the first trilogy that stated how good and just the Jedi were and how they were the peacekeepers and all that. Then the prequels come out and I find out that the Jedi are nothing more or less than the Secret Police of the Republic. Made me root for the Sith, who were at least not a bunch of emotionally repressed super agents.

 

Now, to be fair, I thought that the Jedi in RotS got sold way to cheaply. Case in point, the conehead guy was just reflecting about half a billion blaster bolts from the droid soldiers. He turns around and the clone troopers' Suppress vs. Jedi Reflexes power must have kicked in, because he was suddenly able to block only four or five of their blaster bolts before being dropped.

 

Then you have the speeder bike Jedi. Didn't he sense anything with his Jedi powers. I mean, up to now, the Jedi were reknowned for their psychic sensitivity. So what happened there. Or for that matter, how come the blue chick didn't even get a chance to get a shocked look. And then there was the fighter pilot Jedi, who also was suffering from the Suppress power.

 

I don't even want to think about the Jedi who attempted to arrest Palpatation. Two of them had the obviously useful Stand There and Get Skewered power, while one had the I'm As Slow As Molasses in January power. I know that they wanted to show how big and bad Palpatation was, but it came off as "Ayup, we're Jedi and we move as if we were coated in Mrs. Butterworth's extra thick syrup."

 

So, with all these examples of how the so-called powerful Jedi were wiped out without too much effort on the wipers, who can blame your observation and opinion. In my opinion, any half-talented director could have made the prequels so well that nobody could say "The Jedi could be beaten by a commando." Instead, they would say, "Man, it sucks that Palpatation was so powerful, because those Jedi rocked. Could you imagine what one of them could do to a bunch of stormtroopers!?!"

 

And then there is the stilted morality of the Star Wars universe, but let's not beat that poor corpse.

[Kyle A.]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Um, I don't remember the first part, so maybe I should rewatch.

 

And the second one? It barely phased General Grievous, Grievous was a complete wimp, and it was used at a more medium range.

 

My "cute" theory has Jedi being made into gimps by commandos once within arm reach.

 

Because the all light Jedi powers are USELESS at close range.

 

I think it pretty safe to assume that Jedi are capable fighters with or with out their lightsabers no matter what the range. In revenge of the sith Obi-Wan loses his lightsaber in the battle against Grievous he picks up and uses a blaster quiet competently. Leading me to believe that the Jedi council realised that their would be times were a jedi might not have their lightsaber and trainned them for that event.

[Geek Level Star Wars Talk]

I would point out that there is no such thing as a light Jedi power or a Dark Jedi power, its all in how its used. Darth Vader chokes people to death with the same power Lukes uses to pull his lightsaber to him or Yoda uses to lift an X-Wing. It wouldn't have surprised me to see Obi-Wan or Yoda use Force Lightning against non living things, say a door control on the other side of the room or a pack of assassin droids. Of course some powers are easier to use for good and some for evil.

 

And as for the slug throwers versus a lightsaber? A lightsaber blade can cut through AT-AT armor or melt its way through an armored door. A bullet doesn't stand a chance.

[/Geek Level Star Wars Talk]

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I would point out that there is no such thing as a light Jedi power or a Dark Jedi power' date=' its all in how its used. Darth Vader chokes people to death with the same power Lukes uses to pull his lightsaber to him or Yoda uses to lift an X-Wing. [/quote']

 

That is to say Telekinesis (50 STR), BOECV, used with a Grab maneuver or just for pulling, eh?

 

And as for the slug throwers versus a lightsaber? A lightsaber blade can cut through AT-AT armor or melt its way through an armored door. A bullet doesn't stand a chance.

 

The problem there is that the lightsaber isn't so intensely hot as to destroy the bullet instantaneously. An attempt to block a slug with a saber might just mean that the Jedi now has a heated chunk of metal flying at him. I'm not saying Jedi could be beaten by slugs what with their ability to pull a Neo and say no to the bullets, but I don't think their lightsabers are the answer.

 

Anyway, I want to join in giving you kudos for your idea, Greg. I had the very same thought when I considered doing Star Wars HERO. Please let us all know how well paying CP for gear works out.

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

I like a lot of the things that you are all discussing here.

 

It's not a bad idea to place the characters at the "superheroic" category, but that also does not mean that you have to start them out at 350 points (200pts + 150 Pts in Disadvantages), and still have the game be considered "superheroic"...now does it?

 

If you are intent on the 350 point total, you can still do a few things to "balance the tables", as it is...

1. Utilize the Character Ability Guidelines Table (in Fifth Edition, Revised - Page 28)...and enforce Low-Powered Classification (or at the very most Standard Classification).
   
2. Utilize the Optional Character Design Guidelines (in Fifth Edition, Revised - Page 29), and "structure the characters" based on their character type (i.e. Jedi Characters are Power-Oriented, Smuggler/Rogue Characters are Skill-Oriented, etc. No Character Type should be Characteristic-Oriented).
   
3. Enforce Normal Human Maximas for Characteristics (There's nothing worse than a 50 STR, 26 DEX and 25 CON Bounty Hunter).

I am beginning work myself on a STAR WARS Campaign, converting over the key points for STAR WARS d20 to the HERO SYSTEM. I've come to many of the same conclusions that many of you have...

 

For STAR WARS...Superheroic is definitely the way to go. It gives you the most flexibility, and keeps true to the genre. The major stumbling block though is Equipment. In a Superheroic Campaign...players pay points for everything.

 

The solution...All characters are required to have a Variable Power Pool, defined as a "Gadget Pool". This allows the players freedom to change their equipment, but only in a certain location. Create standardized equipment (i.e. Blasters, Jet-packs, Lightsabers, etc.), have the players define what is in their "stash" (as per your VPP/Gadget Pool guidelines, based on character type), and if they want to add new equipment to the "stash", role play it out (make them go shopping, to the Jedi Temple, etc.).

 

Well, there's my "two cents".

 

The Force Will Be With You...Always!!!

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Jedi can leap 40' into the air. Good luck getting into hand to hand.

Jedi can control minds. "I'm not the one you're looking for."

Jedi can see the future. Good luck ambushing them.

 

Commandos are basically stormtroopers in camoflage.

 

Yes, but if there's no where to land, they still come back down. And, well, the Jedi just gave up any objective that they have. Because a commando won't feel the need to chase down the Jedi just to prove something. He has a MISSION to accomplish.

 

Actually, no they can't. They can influence minds. A little. Only weak ones. Commandos are highly trained, highly disciplined, highly motivated, very smart individuals. "Um, I just crawled through 2 miles of sewers, crept past three security teams, retrieved my stashed gear from the bottom of a ravine, all just so I could be here now. I'm pretty sure you ARE the one I am looking for. Oh, and thanks for standing so close to me. Made my job that much easier. *crunch*"

 

And, actually, their presentience only applies to either A) incoming projectiles aimed specifically at them (they can sense the "intent" of the sniper basically) and really hazy notions of maybe futures that offer no practical benefit against a commando breaking your knees backwards, snapping your wrist, and then crushing your esophogus with the side of his hand.

 

I seriously think only a Dark Jedi could reasonably hold their own. Dark Jedi would probably smoke a commando.

 

Force Lighting works at close range. Hehehe.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Okay, all *****ing about the prequels aside, let's really look at the whole Jedi vs. Commando argument.

 

First off a Jedi with a lightsabre beats four aces, but the sniper on the rooftop beats the Jedi. So let's look at the close up combat sans lightsaber and sans sniper scenario.

 

The Commando:

- Is highly trained and disciplined, both physically and mentally.

- Generally carries more weapons than just a gun. He usually has a knife of some sort and grenades.

- Is not bound by some stilted and unrealistic moral expectation or code.

 

The Jedi:

- Is highly trained and disciplined, both physically and mentally.

- Has Force powers that include the ability to jump, telekinetically manipulate objects and people, and (apparently unreliable) the ability to sense danger.

- Is bound by a stilted moral code that prevents him from feeling and expressing perfectly natural emotions.

 

Okay, I have to say that it is an even fight. If the Commando gets surprise, which is problematic and depends on which movie you're watching, he almost has the battle won hands down. A quick knife spot to a vital area and down goes the Jedi. If the Commando doesn't get surprise, the battle becomes a lot more interesting.

 

Even though the Jedi code prevents them from feeling anger, it apparently does not prevent them from killing en masse. Though to be fair, the droid army would hardly provide a moral quandry. I just don't see the Jedi having any problems with killing a soldier. So that equation is removed. On the other hand, the Jedi Mind Trick isn't going to work on the Commando. You never even see Obi-Wan try it on Jango, because he knows better. A run of the mill stormtrooper does not a commando make.

 

So, in the non-surprise scenario, it is Jedi training vs. Commando training. Hmmm. I have to give this one to the Jedi. In the absence of the primary weapon for each (gun or lightsaber), the Jedi would be much faster and that would be the deciding factor. Sure, the Commando has an edge over just about any non-Jedi. He is trained, conditioned and focused. Against the Jedi reflexes and ability to do one hell of a drop kick, he's going down. Maybe not easily, but he is going down. Couple that with the Jedi telekinesis ability and he just doesn't stand a chance. The Jedi doesn't even have to push or pull him. All he has to do is restrain him and the battle is over. Jedi wins. Doesn't even violate the stilted moral code.

 

Now, a face to face battle is not where Commando type units excel. It is subterfuge, ambush and using superior tactics. This is where the Jedi runs into problems. You see the Jedi in the prequels are arrogant. They depend on their superior mystical abilities. Heck, even Luke Skywalker does this in Return of the Jedi, when he walks into both Jabba's palace and Lord Vader's clutches. He is so confident in the Force that he forgets that he is mortal. This is where the Commando unit can use his training to the fullest. Ambushes, booby traps and coordinated attacks from superior tactical position and the Jedi is toast.

[Greg]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

As another possibility' date=' you could use the resource points as suggested from Dark Champions.[/quote']

 

I started reading the section right before work this morning. First reaction is that it looks good, but I haven't gotten a chance to full delve into it.

 

re: commandos and what not...

I think it's tough to compare the two since the movies focus on the legendary Fett bounty hunters, last of the Mandalorians, and basically the top rung of Jedi. I think in that scenario it's going to be 10-to-1 for the Jedi in straight hand-to-hand. In a situation where the two are hunting each other in a Kashyyyk jungle I'll give it to the commando who has the superior arsenal. In a random smackdown two top tiers might be a closer to 50-50 if the soldier can use some sort of entangle followed by a grenade. The jedi may be able to swat soldier and grenade away in time though so who knows.

 

Back towards force ideas, I was planning on a Jedi Push to be a telekinesis throw and Choke would be telekinesis with a grab/squeeze. Nothing too fancy, but both utilizing existing rules. I tossed around making it BOECV, but that makes it way too expensive to ever be able to lift an X-Wing out of a swamp. +3/4 (+1 BOECV, -1/4 standard defenses can be used) seems a little too pricey for what seems like should be default for telekinesis.

[BlackSword]

Re: Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

 

Whie this discussion is a bit silly as there is no way to test the hypothesis, my 2 cents:

 

From the games and the various shows, I don't think hand-to-hand is the way to face a jedi. You want to give jedi room and hit them with overwhelming firepower. Its not canon, but in the cartoon, Mace against the droids pretty much shows the devasting effect of force enhanced strength.

 

The light sabers are pretty much instant kill, so its best to stay away from them. Jedi are trained how to use them and how to fight close-in. The biggest problem for jedi is closing into close range (though they do have force leaps and force running to help).

 

I do think that a team of commandos could wipe out a jedi or two out. Jedi are not all powerful.