Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

[Lucius]

I'm toying with some robot characters and want to give them a movement multipower.

 

One slot is wheeled transport - high running, a side effects: double knockback, etc.

 

One is with legs - slower running, add climbing, knockback resistance (A set of four legs, kind of spiderlike.

 

One is "anchored" - slowed to a crawl, higher knockback resistance, maybe clinging...

 

One is Ground Effect - a limited Flight

 

etc.

 

Now, I want it to cost some time and effort to "change configuration" to use each of these.

 

I bought a shapeshift power to represent these different deployments, and was thinking of putting a limit on the multipower pool "must use shapeshift to change slots." The shapeshift has concentrate (lower DCV) and costs END and some extra time....

 

I'm overthinking this, aren't I?

 

Should I just put those limitations (time to change slots, concentration, and END cost....) on the multipower pool, and make the "shape shift" just special effects?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Maybe I should ask the palindromedary....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

No.

 

What you have is a shapeshift (which you might not even need if the different powers are unsed independently - the change of shape is sfx) with a linked MP, but it is not as limited as a normal 'linked' as, presumably the shapeshift , even if drained, woud still allow the use of the powers currently selected.

 

I'd limit the POOL with 'costs END to change slots' (+1/4, probably, +1/2 if I was drunk or, in practice, you did it a lot in combat), and with 'extra time for first use' (-1/4 for a full phase, with x1/2 for 'only to set slot) and concentrate for first use (not actually worth anything unless you take 0DCV, when it would be worth -1/4)

 

In effect this means that the pool is limited to the same extent that powers would be if they were not in the pool.

 

A limitation 'extra time to change slots' (or concentrate) is not reasonable unless the limitation is reduced to reflect the fact that, once a slot is activated it can be used without limitation - assuming that is your intention.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Isn't there a form of Extra Time: Only To Activate?

 

I'm pretty sure there is, it sounds like a form or adaption of that -

Extra Time: Only To Switch Slots.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Yes indeed, it halves the limitation value, which is what I was, in my inadequate way, trying to express both for the extra time and the concentration - the lim value would be halved to attach the limits to the pool.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Oh. You need to learn to be less verbose sometimes.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Sometimes?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Sometimes?

Was that practice?

[Marketeer]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Expanding upon the logic of the analysis (because it's a useful exercise):

 

The main reason to be very strict upon limitations that reduce the cost of the Multipower while only affecting how slots are changed goes something vaguely like this:

 

Picture 2 characters. One, in 80s Transformers style, has a Robot mode (Running) and Airplane mode (Flight), represented by a Multipower with 2 slots.

 

The other is a ground-pounder, and only has Running.

 

So let's assume that the former goes something like this:

 

30 pt. Multipower, some kind of -1/4 Limitation that makes it harder to switch slots. Cost of Pool: 24 pts.

 

Then, 2 Fixed slots, both using the entire pool. Total cost of slots: 4

 

Total cost of entire Multipower: 28 points.

 

 

The other character only puts points into Running, and so spends 30 pts. on that. Total cost, 30 points.

 

 

In this example, the first character is better in every way than the second--more flexibility at less cost.

 

It's an interesting conceptual problem to attempt to surmount. On the one hand, characters probably should get some kind of limitation upon the pool if the Slots are difficult to change, but on the other, we seem to have a points arbitrage taking place--the 2-movement mode character is getting both modes, for cheaper, than a character with only 1 movement power.

[Lucius]

Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Yeah, limitations on the Pool;

 

End to switch slots

 

"Concentrate" to switch slots

 

Extra time to switch slots

 

All at less than "normal" values because "switching slots" is usually an "instant" action, not a "constant" power.

 

I'm tempted to put in "Can't move while switching slots" (not even the 1" Concentrate allows) because you turn OFF one movement slot before the other can turn ON, but that might be trying to squeeze more juice out than this lemon has....

 

As for the shapeshift, yeah, I think I caught myself trying to buy a needless power to cover what any reasonable Game Operations Director would define as "special effects."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary threatens to kick me if I don't learn to "keep it simple, stupid!"

 

Lucius Alexander

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

You dont need Shape Shift -- ACTIVATION OF POWERS covers basic physical alterations.

 

All you need is either a Multipower with different forms of Movement and a Limitation on the MP itself that it takes Extra Time to Activate to change slots, OR a single movement Power and a series of Naked Power Adjustments applying the +1/4 Usable as Secondary Form of Movement Advantage with Extra Time to Activate on them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Was that practice?

 

Maybe.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Expanding upon the logic of the analysis (because it's a useful exercise):

 

The main reason to be very strict upon limitations that reduce the cost of the Multipower while only affecting how slots are changed goes something vaguely like this:

 

Picture 2 characters. One, in 80s Transformers style, has a Robot mode (Running) and Airplane mode (Flight), represented by a Multipower with 2 slots.

 

The other is a ground-pounder, and only has Running.

 

So let's assume that the former goes something like this:

 

30 pt. Multipower, some kind of -1/4 Limitation that makes it harder to switch slots. Cost of Pool: 24 pts.

 

Then, 2 Fixed slots, both using the entire pool. Total cost of slots: 4

 

Total cost of entire Multipower: 28 points.

 

 

The other character only puts points into Running, and so spends 30 pts. on that. Total cost, 30 points.

 

 

In this example, the first character is better in every way than the second--more flexibility at less cost.

 

It's an interesting conceptual problem to attempt to surmount. On the one hand, characters probably should get some kind of limitation upon the pool if the Slots are difficult to change, but on the other, we seem to have a points arbitrage taking place--the 2-movement mode character is getting both modes, for cheaper, than a character with only 1 movement power.

 

Agreed, which is why you should not have any limitations on the pool that you could not apply to a power outside the pool, with the possible exception of 'costs END to change slots', which can only really apply to a pool.

 

Thus it is not 'extra time to change slots' but 'extra time to activate a power, followed by continual use of the power', which halves the limitation of extra time, and can be applied to a power outside the pool...in your example:

 

Move pool (full phase to activate any given power, unlimited continuous use) -1/4 (30 ap, 24 rp)

slot 1: running (15") 2 points

slot 2: flight (15") 2 points

 

total 28

 

As opposed to:

 

Running (15") (full phase to activate power, unlimited continuous use) -1/4 (30 ap, 24 rp)

 

So the ground pounder is still cheaper than the MP.

 

I would not allow a limitation that SIMPLY made it slow to change slots. Note in each example to turn the power on takes a full phase, it does not matter whether (with the MP) the slot was already allocated to that power.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

From what I can tell, Extra Time To Change Slots is a -0 Limitation at best, since anything more than that would give a character more versitility for less cost than a single Power. As Sean says though, if it takes the Extra Time each time a Power is used (turned on) regardless of whether or not the points were already in that slot, then it's different.

 

For color, drama and accuracy in concept, I'd go ahead and put the -0 on the Power, but make sure there was some other advantage granted to the character to make up for the fact that is Multipower is less powerfull than one without the Limitation but has the same cost. Could be something simple, such as allowing that character to abort to those slots (so long as it doesn't take more than a Full Phase to switch, or up to an extra phase according to the rules) so he can make use of the KB resistance and clinging (or whatever's available) or maybe allowing him to make use of the side effects of some of the movement powers to good effect rather than bad.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

From what I can tell' date=' Extra Time To Change Slots is a -0 Limitation at best, since anything more than that would give a character more versitility for less cost than a single Power. As Sean says though, if it takes the Extra Time each time a Power is used (turned on) regardless of whether or not the points were already in that slot, then it's different.[/quote']

 

I'd consider allowing the limitation on the slots but not the pool, if the player ewanted a "default slot" which would not take extra time to activate unless he changed away from it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

It is worth some kind of Lim value as it is clearly more limited than a Multipower that can change its slots as a 0 Phase action.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Agreed, which is why you should not have any limitations on the pool that you could not apply to a power outside the pool, with the possible exception of 'costs END to change slots', which can only really apply to a pool.

 

Thus it is not 'extra time to change slots' but 'extra time to activate a power, followed by continual use of the power', which halves the limitation of extra time, and can be applied to a power outside the pool...in your example:

 

Move pool (full phase to activate any given power, unlimited continuous use) -1/4 (30 ap, 24 rp)

slot 1: running (15") 2 points

slot 2: flight (15") 2 points

 

total 28

 

As opposed to:

 

Running (15") (full phase to activate power, unlimited continuous use) -1/4 (30 ap, 24 rp)

Technically, this does not mean the same thing to me at all.

 

The Running Full Phase to Activate basically means that on the 1st Phase the character can still make a Full Move -- they just cant do anything else.

 

With the MP, it takes a Full Phase to change the slots -- which does not allow them to also use the Movement Power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

I'm not sure it would mean that: if you took your full phase activating running there would be not time left to actually travel anywhere, so you couldn't actually get moving until next phase, at least that is the way I think it would work. So it would work out the same as the limited MP.

 

OTOH it is late and you might well be right.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

I'm not sure it would mean that: if you took your full phase activating running there would be not time left to actually travel anywhere, so you couldn't actually get moving until next phase, at least that is the way I think it would work. So it would work out the same as the limited MP.

 

OTOH it is late and you might well be right.

Full Phase doesnt effect timing or activation; it just eats a full action. The effect occurs at the characters DEX, even. So basically, from the hip mind you -- no book handy -- a Constant Movement form with Full Phase Only to Activate (-1/4) just means that the 1st Phase you use the Power it takes the full Phase to use the ability. Since the effect of the Power is Movement, it seems to me you would still get the Movement. Extra Time at that level doesnt hinder the Power it's attached to -- it hinders the characters action economy.

 

Just like if you threw down a Continuous EB with Extra Time Full Phase Only To Activate you still do damage with it that 1st Phase; you just can't take a 1/2 Move or 1/2 Phase non-Attack Action in conjunction with it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Full Phase doesnt effect timing or activation; it just eats a full action. The effect occurs at the characters DEX, even. So basically, from the hip mind you -- no book handy -- a Constant Movement form with Full Phase Only to Activate (-1/4) just means that the 1st Phase you use the Power it takes the full Phase to use the ability. Since the effect of the Power is Movement, it seems to me you would still get the Movement. Extra Time at that level doesnt hinder the Power it's attached to -- it hinders the characters action economy.

 

Just like if you threw down a Continuous EB with Extra Time Full Phase Only To Activate you still do damage with it that 1st Phase; you just can't take a 1/2 Move or 1/2 Phase non-Attack Action in conjunction with it.

 

While there is some logic to this interpretation, I don't see "full phase to activate" on Running as much of a drawback if you can still make a full move with that Running in the same phase you activate it. With the EB, you have lost a half phase action. With the Running, I suppose you've lost choice on what to do with that extra half phase, but I think I'd be inclined to rule that the character could get no more than a half phase of running in the activation phase.

 

This kind of highlights a concern with Extra Time, however. A full phase EB really is "takes an extra half phase". If we redefined the Running from "full phase to activate" to "requires an extra half phase action to activate", this would be the same drawback faced by the EB, and clearly leave only a half phase to move after activating the Running.

[JmOz]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

In my game, this kind of MP would require you to limit the slots, but would not allow the limiting of the pool itself AND HERE IS WHY:

 

 

Three Heroes, Morph Boy, Speed Lass, and Cybot (who has a MP described here)

 

Speed Lass has +20" Running, and has paid 40 points

 

Morph Boy has the following MP

 

40 point MP

4u +20 Running (Wheeled Feet)

4u +40 Super Leap (Spring Legs)

4u +20" Flight (Jet engine)

For a total of 52 points

 

Now Cybot can do the same thing as Morph Boy, but he has concentration and extra time on just changing the slots, (It represents him changing the legs manualy while morph boy just changes by thinking about it)

 

Now I think we can all agree, considering all three have +20" of running the cost for Cybot should be somewhere between 40 and 52 points

 

If you limit the pool with a total of -1/2 limitations it turns the pool above to costing 27+3+3+3=36 points, less that Speed Lass, who has not got the versitility

 

Now if you limit the slots only you get 49 points for a -1/2, which is in the target point range. Someone more articulate can come in asnd explain this better than I

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

In my game, this kind of MP would require you to limit the slots, but would not allow the limiting of the pool itself AND HERE IS WHY:

 

Three Heroes, Morph Boy, Speed Lass, and Cybot (who has a MP described here)

 

Speed Lass has +20" Running, and has paid 40 points

 

Morph Boy has the following MP

 

40 point MP

4u +20 Running (Wheeled Feet)

4u +40 Super Leap (Spring Legs)

4u +20" Flight (Jet engine)

For a total of 52 points

 

Now Cybot can do the same thing as Morph Boy, but he has concentration and extra time on just changing the slots, (It represents him changing the legs manualy while morph boy just changes by thinking about it)

 

Now I think we can all agree, considering all three have +20" of running the cost for Cybot should be somewhere between 40 and 52 points

 

If you limit the pool with a total of -1/2 limitations it turns the pool above to costing 27+3+3+3=36 points, less that Speed Lass, who has not got the versitility

 

I agree provided Cybot gets to pick a pair of "default legs". If Cybot at the start of the scenario has to activate any of the Multipower slots (ie he would have to spend Extra Time and Concentrate before he would have access to any of the three powers in the Multipower, prior to which he would only have his powers outside the Multi), then I could see a limitation on the pool as well. Cybot would pay 36 points (10% less than Speed Lass) because he has to wait a phase to use any of those powers. Speed Lass would pay 27 points if her extra Running had the same Extra Time and Concentrate, so Cybot pays 9 points for the added versatility.

 

For Cybot to get the overall price break, he could not have a "default" slot setting - he can't say "I leave the bonus running on at all times until something happens", or "every morning when Cybot wakes up, he puts on the Running Legs". He has to face the drawback of Concentration and Extra Time the first time he activates any of the Multipower slots, in any scenario.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Right! Slot-switching limitations should be placed on the *slots*, not on the pool. I recommend half the value for the usual limitation. For example, if the Power itself had Concentaration, Extra Time, Costs END, etc., for a total of -1 in limitations, put -1/2 limit on the slot if the lims only apply when switching to that slot.

 

This has come up before. Someone with better search-fu than I might be able to find a long discussion about this that we had. It showed definitively why if slot switching limitations reduce the cost of the Pool, it is grossly unfair and unbalanced. The obvious example:

 

60 12d6 EB = 60 point cost

 

vs.

 

40 Multipower 60 pool, Concentration (0 DCV) to switch slots

6u 12d6 EB

6u 4d6 RKA

= 52 Point cost for a power construct that is better.

 

If you add on more limitations, the example gets even more outrageous.

[JmOz]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

Just to clarify: If the lim has a 1/2 option for just to activate (Example is extra time or concentration) you should only halve it once not twice (if the power is primed in the MP it should be considered enough to activate it on demand) While not 100% rules legal, for balance reasons it is right (at least to me). But the lim ONLY goes on the slot

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

5er p320 specifically approves applying an extra time limit to the pool cost when it takes longer than usual to distribute slots.

 

Seems very odd to me for the reasons we have been through in detail....

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower, Hard to Switch Slots

 

5er p320 specifically approves applying an extra time limit to the pool cost when it takes longer than usual to distribute slots.

 

Seems very odd to me for the reasons we have been through in detail....

That there are occasional glitches in the rulebook(s) should come as a surprise to no one. It's a tradition that goes back to first edition, and even to other game systems that predate HERO. Fortunately, this isn't the Bible. There is nothing sacrosanct about its contents. If we find something that can be easily shown to be wrong, we are free to say, "Oh. Looks like they make a mistake. No big deal. I'll fix it and do it the right way."