Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

That would be simple enough to do - it'd be the same model as a Displacer Beast, you'd just tie it to Images, or improve the character's DCV, Only After Teleporting, Only vs. Sight Group or some such since a Blind Fighter or a Telepath using their brain as a targeting sense won't be fooled. Then as the SFX of the +DCV it's an 'after-image.'

 

"Ask not what can be modeled in HERO, ask how many ways HERO can model what you want."

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Teleport bypasses an area. You have never taken damage by Teleporting "through" an AoE anything. You don't actually "pass through" an area with Teleport.

 

Unless you have the "passes through intervening space" Limitation.

Look, I'm not arguing that what you are saying makes perfect sense. And I wouldn't be surprised if the mechanic interaction between Teleportation and Area Effect may have been clarified to allow Teleportation to bypass Area Effect attacks. Unfortunately, sometimes Steve Long clarifies such interaction ruling contrary to what would seem to make sense.

 

I'm just wanting some official clarification is all.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Robyn]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Since you can use XDM to teleport anywhere in a given dimension... really Teleport could never hope to compete' date=' being restricted by distances (Mega-scale, or otherwise). What we need, seriously, is a Universal Scale Advantage, that can be applied to Teleportation and other Powers, (like Detects), which gives them the scope and range of the entire Universe.[/quote']

 

Before reading the book, I just assumed that there was such a thing. It made so much sense, even with what little I knew of the game, to have one.

[Robyn]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

That would be simple enough to do - it'd be the same model as a Displacer Beast' date=' you'd just tie it to Images, or improve the character's DCV, Only After Teleporting, Only vs. Sight Group or some such since a Blind Fighter or a Telepath using their brain as a targeting sense won't be fooled. Then as the SFX of the +DCV it's an 'after-image.'[/quote']

 

I was thinking of Linking an Image to it, yeah. I like the "Only vs. Sight Group" too, I hadn't thought of that. Martial artists who can sense air vibrations from nearby movement (ranged sense of touch) should be able to say "Hey, wait a minute - if this guy's moving so fast, how come I didn't feel the air being displaced from his path?" Come to which, does Teleport by itself displace air from the destination and become audible from the air rushing in to fill the origin? If the Teleport has the character exchange places with the air at the destination point, what happens if one or both is a pressurized environment and they have different levels of air pressure?

 

I think I'll go think about something simple like "Images, Smell/Taste Group only" to reflect a spell that improves the bland taste of travel fare.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

A universal scale would be madness, because TP is a standard movement power as I said before. It's designed that way - it isn't built to do what EDM does, so I get baffled when people try to lump those two together. Generally speaking, 'movement powers' are 2cp to 1 hex, Teleport included.

 

EDM is a whole separate creature, and I'd personally be more inclined to remove the insane NCM multipliers people put on EDM and have a group of combat/standard movements and non-combat/time/extra dimensional movements.

 

But I'm new here, so there are doubtless dozens of counter arguments as to why this wouldn't work, looking at the rules, it seems that in fact TP is a movement power, and EDM is the exception to all rules.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Robyn: Teleport would do that if you bought a limitation that makes it do that. Look at it this way.

 

When you buy a power - any power - it's perfectly standard. You can buy an EB with no advantages, and no limitations. Nothing stops you from doing so. If you were to buy a Teleport, all it would do is get you from point A to point B. If you want the Wild Cards effect that Popinjay had, i.e., a notification that someone got TP'd (POP), you can purchase the power with a variation on Visible Power Effects (Distinctive In-Rush of Air, -1/4).

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Let's start over.

Okay, let's really start over.

 

I was initially talking just about the mechanics of Teleportation vs the other Movement Powers. The SFX part of this is a non-issue, since there will alway be a SFX that will require the specific mechanics being discussed. So it is a non-issue. Or to put it bluntly, SFX have nothing to do with the mechanical analysis I was doing in comparing what Teleportation/Other Powers actually does mechanically with respect to Constant vs Instant.

 

So what I want answered is this:

 

10" Running (Does Not Cross Intervening Space via Teleportation Style): Constant Power

Character instantly runs 10" in a Full Move and takes a Full Phase to do so.

 

10" Teleportation: Instant Power

Character instantly teleports 10" in a Full Move and takes a Full Phase to do so.

 

Okay, how are these two different as far as Constant/Instant classification and actual Duration?

 

Since Teleportation has been defined that the Character must always "Rematerilize" at the end of a Full/Half Move, regardless of whether character is continuously teleporting or teleporting in discrete steps, mechanically they are now one and the same. Why not just define Teleportation as Constant by defautl, since it essentially is anyway now mechanically.

 

Or in other words, as long as the character pays END, the character continues Teleporting and popping all over the place.

 

Am I missing some mechanical difference?

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I don't know if you're missing it mechanically or conceptually. Running is likely considered constant because you're always running; to be instant, a power must occur - bam. Teleport does this, it just happens. Bam. You go from point A to point B. In fact, that it is an Instant move is part of what makes it mechanically different from Running.

 

Second, this is one of those cases where you aren't divorcing the special effect from the mechanic, because they're different mechanics, n'est pas? They're two totally separate things. In one, you are in fact running across a space. You can be intercepted, shot, forced to change course, etc. Teleport. You go from A to B. Nothing stops you, and it happens instantly.

 

That's where I think the difference lies. But that's me. I've been wrong before.

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Robyn: Teleport would do that if you bought a limitation that makes it do that. Look at it this way.

 

When you buy a power - any power - it's perfectly standard. You can buy an EB with no advantages, and no limitations. Nothing stops you from doing so. If you were to buy a Teleport, all it would do is get you from point A to point B. If you want the Wild Cards effect that Popinjay had, i.e., a notification that someone got TP'd (POP), you can purchase the power with a variation on Visible Power Effects (Distinctive In-Rush of Air, -1/4).

And again this is just a clarification:

 

I believe that all END Costing powers (with few exceptions), are considered Visible to Three Sense Groups by default. Since Teleportation costs END, you just need to define the Visible Power Effects as described by Thia Halmades.

 

Thia, I just wanted let you know that I think you present your point of view very well. I can be very thick headed sometimes and that tends to frustrate people. If I say something that offends you, please let me know, because I really don't intend to offend anyone. I tend to be too terse at times.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

1) Running; does not pass through intervening space - I would never allow as it duplicates an already existing construct (Teleport). We will ignore and continue on with this example anyways.

 

2) Teleport has never, in the 10+ years I've been playing Hero, taken damage when it "passes through" an Area Of Effect Attack.

 

3) Running (and other like Movement Powers: Flight, Gliding, et cetera...) is Constant because you still have Velocity between Phases.

 

4) Teleport does not have an inherent Velocity - you are moving at the same Velocity at the start and end of your Teleport regardless of how far you moved (barring the No Relative Velocty Adder). Therefore Teleport is an Instant Power, it does not have a recurring effect between Phases.

 

Example:

I am Flying at 10"/Phase, During my Next Phase I Full Move Teleport 12" to my Left, by my facing and Forward Velocity are still Flight 10"/Phase - because I have not deactivated my Constant Power, it is still "in effect."

 

The trick Hero pulls there is thus:

I can't actually Fly 10" Forward even though I have no 'turned off' Flight - why, I have used a Full Move Teleport instead. It causes a slight 'Real Time' disconnect of effect, but allows the Game to be playable in an abstract fashion.

[Robyn]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

4) Teleport does not have an inherent Velocity - you are moving at the same Velocity at the start and end of your Teleport regardless of how far you moved (barring the No Relative Velocty Adder). Therefore Teleport is an Instant Power' date=' it does not have a recurring effect between Phases.[/quote']

 

So what happens when I set up a flat portal with its open end up, so it dumps out anything going through it on the other side, and I put the second portal ten feet above it "facing" down?

 

I am Flying at 10"/Phase' date=' During my Next Phase I Full Move Teleport 12" to my Left, by my facing and Forward Velocity are still Flight 10"/Phase - because I have not deactivated my Constant Power, it is still "in effect."[/quote']

 

That's scary.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

So what happens when I set up a flat portal with its open end up, so it dumps out anything going through it on the other side, and I put the second portal ten feet above it "facing" down?

 

 

 

That's scary.

First part: well, you have to get the Character those 10 Feet upward, unless the Teleport moves them there, or they are already doing a velocity that will put them there and they don't stop or avery in their next Phase... they go through the second portal.

 

Second part: what's scary about it?

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I don't know if you're missing it mechanically or conceptually. Running is likely considered constant because you're always running; to be instant' date=' a power must occur - bam. Teleport does this, it just happens. Bam. You go from point A to point B. In fact, that it is an Instant move is part of what makes it mechanically different from Running.[/quote']

Okay, I think I see where there is some confusion. We aren't using the same defintions. Happens all the time. (8^D)

 

When I talk mechanics, I'm using definitions specific to those mechanics only.

So when I say "Constant" I am referring to the specific mechanics that define that word.

 

Therefore:

Constant Power: Simply means any power which continues to operate as long as END is spent. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Instant Power: Simply means any power which must by "Activated" (even if it is only a Zero Phase Activation) every phase to continue using.

 

No SFX, nothing implied by "continously moving", other than the definition above. This is my mistake for not clarifying the definitions I was using.

 

Does this help clarify why I don't see any difference between Teleportation (Instant) and Teleportation (Constant). Might as well classify it as a Constant unless you can think of any mechnical reason for having to reactivate the Teleportation every phase instead of just saying, "Okay, I'm going over there now..."

 

I just don't see Instant having any mechanical game effect different from Constant when interacting with other mechanics.

 

Second' date=' this is one of those cases where you aren't divorcing the special effect from the mechanic, because they're different mechanics, n'est pas? They're two totally separate things. In one, you are in fact running across a space. You can be intercepted, shot, forced to change course, etc. Teleport. You go from A to B. Nothing stops you, and it happens instantly.[/quote']

I'm unfamiliar with the term "n'est pas".

 

You are absolutely right, simple Running as a mechanic and simple Teleport as a mechanic are very different inside the segments of the Full/Half Move. Not arguing that at all.

 

Given the two mechanics I actually defined in my post, what is different after a Full Turn of "continous movement"?

They both declare their Full Move at the beginning of the phase to continue movement. (SFX has nothing to do with this part of the mechanics)

They both can be attacked at the beginning/end of the each phase.

They both spend END each phase.

 

So I'm just trying to figure out how Teleportation (Defined as Instant) is different from Teleportation (Defined as Constant).

Steve Long has pretty much said, "Nothing".

 

Perhaps I'm just too thickheaded to see the obvious here.

 

Thanks for trying though.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Robyn]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

First part: well' date=' you have to get the Character those 10 Feet upward, unless the Teleport moves them there, or they are already doing a velocity that will put them there and they don't stop or avery in their next Phase... they go through the second portal.[/quote']

 

Think of it like a doorway. You walk through one end, your body immediately emerges on the other. Then extend the doorway into more of a hallway, and cut out the intervening space; you have two doorways, and walking in one will have you walking out of the other, not to the other side of the one you're walking through. Then flip these doorways on their side. That's your portal.

 

I'm thinking you have a Teleport from one Focus to the other, but as your velocity increases (not being reset by Teleporting), you're going to have less and less time passing between Teleports; such an effect could be considered "Continuous", since it happens more than one per Phase or Segment or even action of the hero for the same person. It would also be very difficult, eventually, to intercept the hero and stop his fall.

 

Second part: what's scary about it?

 

I can picture a strafing run with the hero blipping sideways to evade defensive fire, maintaining their general course and heading.

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

1) Running; does not pass through intervening space - I would never allow as it duplicates an already existing construct (Teleport). We will ignore and continue on with this example anyways.

I was simply using it for comparison of mechanic interaction. (8^D)

I never said it was a legal build. (8^D)

 

2) Teleport has never' date=' in the 10+ years I've been playing Hero, taken damage when it "passes through" an Area Of Effect Attack.[/quote']

See my last post. I said I wasn't arguing with you. I just wanted a reference where that was clarified. That's all.

 

3) Running (and other like Movement Powers: Flight' date=' Gliding, et cetera...) is Constant because you still have Velocity between Phases.[/quote']

This is an interesting point. Based on this, would change Leaping to be an Instant Power?

The reason I ask is because that technically Leaping has definite Discrete Steps for each Phase, and the Velocity factor is apparently thrown out the window with that one, at least conceptually.

 

4) Teleport does not have an inherent Velocity - you are moving at the same Velocity at the start and end of your Teleport regardless of how far you moved (barring the No Relative Velocty Adder). Therefore Teleport is an Instant Power' date=' it does not have a recurring effect between Phases.[/quote']

Please see above the definitions I'm using for Instant and Constant. That may clear some things up as to what I'm missing or perhaps why I'm confused.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Think of it like a doorway. You walk through one end, your body immediately emerges on the other. Then extend the doorway into more of a hallway, and cut out the intervening space; you have two doorways, and walking in one will have you walking out of the other, not to the other side of the one you're walking through. Then flip these doorways on their side. That's your portal.

 

I'm thinking you have a Teleport from one Focus to the other, but as your velocity increases (not being reset by Teleporting), you're going to have less and less time passing between Teleports; such an effect could be considered "Continuous", since it happens more than one per Phase or Segment or even action of the hero for the same person. It would also be very difficult, eventually, to intercept the hero and stop his fall.

It would be if Velocity were continually increased... thankfully Terminal Velocity, Held Actions and other Powers may be able to intervene on the poor souls behalf. That would be a very nasty trap. Note: I managed to misread your initial post a bit, but my answer still stands. 10ft is about 2 Hexes, since a Phase (or at the worst a Segment) would have to exist between entering and exiting that Teleport trap, there's still a chance to avoid a mobius effect.

 

I can picture a strafing run with the hero blipping sideways to evade defensive fire' date=' maintaining their general course and heading.[/quote']

And that would be the exact concept I had in mind when I built the example.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I was simply using it for comparison of mechanic interaction. (8^D)

I never said it was a legal build. (8^D)

point.

 

See my last post. I said I wasn't arguing with you. I just wanted a reference where that was clarified. That's all.

I'm not sure how clarified you want to get:

5ER p233 - A character with (Teleport) can move from one point to another without physically travelling through the space in between the two points. First sentence in the power.

FREd p149 - exact same sentence, word for word as the above.

 

I don't know how much clearer that can get really.

 

This is an interesting point. Based on this, would change Leaping to be an Instant Power?

The reason I ask is because that technically Leaping has definite Discrete Steps for each Phase, and the Velocity factor is apparently thrown out the window with that one, at least conceptually.

Multiple Phase Leaps are possible (see the description of Non Combat Leaping under the Power heading). During the Leap you have a Velocity. No, I would leave in constant.

 

Please see above the definitions I'm using for Instant and Constant. That may clear some things up as to what I'm missing or perhaps why I'm confused.

 

- Christopher Mullins

You might want to slightly alter Instant, to comply more closely with the book:

Instant Powers last only as long as they take to execute, whether that is a half phase, full phase or delayed phase.

 

The other important difference is that Constant Powers do not require a new attack roll every Phase they are in use against the same target. (As long as the first instance of the Constant Power hit said target).

[Robyn]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

It would be if Velocity were continually increased... thankfully Terminal Velocity' date=' Held Actions and other Powers may be able to intervene on the poor souls behalf. That would be a very nasty trap.[/quote']

 

I wasn't even thinking of it as a trap. That would be nasty.

 

I was thinking, though, that the Teleport itself would not alter velocity at all. It was just a question of whether, after having effectively fallen 100 feet (passing through the portal ten times), the character would have increased in speed (or passed through the first portal and hit the ground because the Teleport couldn't be Continuous and its Instant activation couldn't reset quick enough for the second use).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

In which case no. The word I was looking for evidently was velocity, and I made a reference to such in my post, Chris, but I think (hope) you get the idea now.

 

I didn't mean to come off as terse, I was simply getting frustrated because I felt that I was smashing my head with a brick wrapped in lemon. To me the difference is obvious and doesn't need further clarification.

 

Robyn: Yes, TP traps are nasty. Oddly, that was the FIRST thing I thought of.

 

Nice signature, btw.

[Robyn]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Robyn: Yes' date=' TP traps are nasty. Oddly, that was the FIRST thing I thought of.[/quote']

 

Would you believe I came up with the idea for something as cliche as "scientific curiosity"?

 

I originally thought of this several years ago, though I don't recall what system it was in connection with, and tried to figure out what sort of interval would be required to shut the portals off after someone had reached maximum velocity.

 

Nice signature' date=' btw. [/quote']

 

Thanks. I modified it for the April Fool's Day challenge, then removed that link after posting the solution and Repping - err - what's the name? :checks PM for name: Dust Raven (I was thinking Death Angel for some reason) for having guessed the answer.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Thanks. I modified it for the April Fool's Day challenge, then removed that link after posting the solution and Repping - err - what's the name? :checks PM for name: Dust Raven (I was thinking Death Angel for some reason) for having guessed the answer.

 

Dust Raven... Death Angel... close enough.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

As it happens, this kind of t-port trap is one of my character's favorite non-lethal ways to take someone out of a fight; Dr. Anomaly calls it the Klein-Minkowski Field Effect Generator. It loops a local area of spacetime and unless the subject can fly (or gets knocked out of the area of effect by someone hitting them with something) they fall until they reach terminal velocity. In order to get someone out of it without having them go SPLAT!, he also invented the Calabi-Yau Field Extractor -- another version of T-Port, Usable as an Attack, except with the "No Relative Velocity" adder applied. It's not much good on most metahumans (who will usually be able to get out of it, one way or another) but it's great for taking nuisances like agents out of the fight without having to worry about accidentally rolling really well on even a standard damage roll and seriously injuring them.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

For "passes through intervening space" with Teleport; it would be interesting to have a character with "Special Effect: 'afterimage' between origin and destination points". Everyone would think he was a Speedster and keep on trying to stop him by putting walls and stuff in the way

 

That seems to be a sufficiently advantageous special effect that as a GM, I'd be inclined to require that be built as Images linked to Teleportation. But I'd also fell compelled to have at least one NPC fall for it.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I wish there were an official' date=' by-the-book way to make Teleport & Extra-Dimensional Movement act more like the "constant" Movement powers. Why do I say that? Well, Dr. Who, for instance...the number of times the TARDIS has been intercepted, subject to "time storms" and so on...plus the fact it doesn't get anywhere instantaneously...make it necessary to "roll your own" Limitations when building such a thing. While that's certainly possible, it leads to a wildly varying value being assigned to that Limitation, and I'd like a book "standard" -- even if I chose not to use it. [/quote']

 

To me, the most appropriate existing limitation is Gradual Effect: "A power with this limitation works slowly, taking some time to achieve its full effect," which sounds like an almost exact match to the desired special effect. Take the value of the limitation on the basis of the minimum or possibly the typical amount of time required to Teleport or Extradimensionally move.

[Robyn]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

As it happens' date=' this kind of t-port trap is one of my character's favorite non-lethal ways to take someone out of a fight;[/quote']

 

Non-lethal?

 

My concept of the portal was as just that, not a doorway; if you were knocked slightly askew, so that you no longer fit perfectly through the portal, then part of you would go through the portal and the rest of you would continue falling, off to the side.

 

In other words it would slice you in half