Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I think EDM ... should be coverable by applying Transdimensional / Transtemporal Advantages to other Movement Powers.

I like this idea in general, but I think they'd have to be Adders rather than Advantages. For example, even if Transtemporal (Any Time) was a +2 Advantage, applying it to 1" of Teleport would result in a power that allowed you to travel to any point in time (but staying in your current physical location) and cost only 6 points.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I like this idea in general' date=' but I think they'd have to be Adders rather than Advantages. For example, even if Transtemporal (Any Time) was a +2 Advantage, applying it to 1" of Teleport would result in a power that allowed you to travel to any point in time (but staying in your current physical location) and cost only 6 points. [/quote']

Good thinking....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Here's the question then .. how would you cost the Adders?

 

Same as now or different?

 

If the same aren't we really just saying "Must have 1" of Teleport in order to take the EDM Power"

 

If different why?

[TaxiMan]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

If Star Trek's teleportation 'crosses intervening space', how do they get out of the ship? How do they teleport to locations in buildings or underground? Does there have to be a hole, or does Scotty ask "Open the door, and I'll teleport the Captain down"?

 

The thought made a funny picture in my head.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

The more I think about it ... the idea that EDM and Teleport are different sides of the same coin is fine, but I don't see them as the same thing at all.

 

If the entire arguement for folding EDM into Teleport is that there's no difference between EDM and Teleport: Transdimensional then we can get rid of Telekensis as well as that's simply STR: Indirect, Ranged, No Figured.

 

If a character simply wants the ability to move through Dimensions or Time why do they need Teleport?

 

Granted, I'm not saying you're wrong, yet, just some thoughts crossing through my mind on this one.

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

If Star Trek's teleportation 'crosses intervening space', how do they get out of the ship? How do they teleport to locations in buildings or underground? Does there have to be a hole, or does Scotty ask "Open the door, and I'll teleport the Captain down"?

 

The thought made a funny picture in my head.

That was just a quick and easy example I gave. I'm not suggesting any of the other aspects of Star Trek's teleportation is consistent or makes a lot of sense.

 

I do know that from the shows that the Teleportation device turns the object into energy, what kind of energy I don't know, but then that energy is somehow "beamed", I always just figured they had some type of transmitter, to another location. If the target location is another teleportation device, then they have a receiver that collects the energy and then turns it back into its original form. Now how they rematerlize at a target location without a receiver has always been a curiosity to me.

 

The show has also established numerous times that the energy being transmitted can be intercepted and diverted to another location. So there you go... (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[LoresLost]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

The Startrek transporters work by a form of quatum deconstruction/reconstruction (hence the need for Heisenburg compensators). It then uses two "signals" and their hetrodyne point to act as the marker for reconstruction. (I realize that such a thing would not work in reality). The Transport stream (shown in several TNG episodes) is an extra dimensional location that "matter" goes while being quatum-ly moved. (I believe either Quatum space or quatum sink would be a beter name for this location. This is the place were a quatum field goes as it is performing quatum tunneling or so say some).

 

The transport stream does not pass through the interveining space, but it can be intercepted by use of another transporter forcing "signal" convergence at a new location.

 

So a Startrek transporter could be said to be a form of EDM with a relocation adder and restranable limitation.

 

I really need to get a life.

edited spelling error

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I go the other way -- I think EDM is useless and should be coverable by applying Transdimensional / Transtemporal Advantages to other Movement Powers.

Just take all the EDM values and make them Adders to teleport...

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

In all seriousness, Teleport and EDM are excellent examples of system creep. Teleport was added for the obvious reason that "supers teleport". Then later EDM came up as the system came to embrace more exotic concepts - but no alignment ever occurred. I would agree it should ideally be revisited.

 

Schir1964 points out as well that the Duration rules are a little funky with movement, especially phase-based movement. Nothing that bad on the latter count, IMHO, but could be a lot more elegant. With something like flight Constant or similar Duration abilities make sense, since we're talking about the character state BETWEEN ACTUAL MOVEMENT, i.e, hovering, but with running it makes less sense - when you run, you run, then you stop. In between, you are not running, or if you are, you're running in place, which affords no mechanical meaningfulness in a (typical) RPG (though it makes for an interesting Social and possibly Psych Lim ).

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Totally valid, but I just think that the overlap between the two in terms of disappearing from one spot and reappearing in another is at least an "interesting coincidence," plus what I find to be the most interesting aspect is that a common teleport/EDM bleed is the character who pops out of this dimension in order to reappear in another spot in the same dimension. This is also the common hyperspace trick. Now, I agree that there's some heavy SFX hanging around and I won't dispute that mechanically you can draw a distinction between teleporting and moving between dimensions, but I do think there's more thought/rationalization required.

 

And by the way, I am not so sure that getting rid of TK and making the official version STR: Indirect, Ranged, No Figured would be such a bad thing. Though this might be a case where stacking Advs and Lims becomes the problem, hence the conversion to a base power. But I bring it up because there has been a lot of arguments about how TK works versus how STR works and so on.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Should I assume that the "Bolt hole" ability provided by d20's Rope Trick can be represented by either EDM or TDTP? Rope Trick allows you to "throw up a rope" which goes to an Interdimensional Bolthole. I built the power exactly; it takes you to one place and added the appropriate mass to "hold" multiple people.

 

I think it was 40 points (a 2nd level spell) when it was done, exactly as it should be. Can TDTP do the same thing as I did with EDM?

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Now this is a valid answer.

 

Presuming this is what you would actually get, is it really worth a +1 value?

 

- Christopher Mullins

Applying it to a couple points of Tport and you get a heck of a cheap Desol! Er....

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Should I assume that the "Bolt hole" ability provided by d20's Rope Trick can be represented by either EDM or TDTP? Rope Trick allows you to "throw up a rope" which goes to an Interdimensional Bolthole. I built the power exactly; it takes you to one place and added the appropriate mass to "hold" multiple people.

 

I think it was 40 points (a 2nd level spell) when it was done, exactly as it should be. Can TDTP do the same thing as I did with EDM?

Hmmm...the implication from how I read others' notes in this thread would be no, that you should do it as EDM UBO or EDM with some mass/people adders (not looking at it at the moment, and can't distact myself too much, waiting for a fairly urgent call-back at work).

 

But I couldn't resist noting that I misread "bolt hole" for a moment as "butt hole"...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Totally valid, but I just think that the overlap between the two in terms of disappearing from one spot and reappearing in another is at least an "interesting coincidence," plus what I find to be the most interesting aspect is that a common teleport/EDM bleed is the character who pops out of this dimension in order to reappear in another spot in the same dimension. This is also the common hyperspace trick. Now, I agree that there's some heavy SFX hanging around and I won't dispute that mechanically you can draw a distinction between teleporting and moving between dimensions, but I do think there's more thought/rationalization required.

 

And by the way, I am not so sure that getting rid of TK and making the official version STR: Indirect, Ranged, No Figured would be such a bad thing. Though this might be a case where stacking Advs and Lims becomes the problem, hence the conversion to a base power. But I bring it up because there has been a lot of arguments about how TK works versus how STR works and so on.

It just seems weird that we try and combine like minded powers (and EDM and TP are like minded) into one construct of adders/advantages but then turn around and want to split Regen back out from Healing because the Adv/Lim/Adder structure is clunky.

 

Whether EDM is simply Adders on TP or a base power to the side doesn't seem, to me, like it would affect actual system use at all and thus - is a neat mental exercise but not much beyond that. IMO.

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Applying it to a couple points of Tport and you get a heck of a cheap Desol! Er....

Not quite, since Teleportation still requires LOS while Desolid does not. But don't get me started on Desolid... (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullilns

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

It just seems weird that we try and combine like minded powers (and EDM and TP are like minded) into one construct of adders/advantages but then turn around and want to split Regen back out from Healing because the Adv/Lim/Adder structure is clunky.

 

Whether EDM is simply Adders on TP or a base power to the side doesn't seem, to me, like it would affect actual system use at all and thus - is a neat mental exercise but not much beyond that. IMO.

Well, I'm not trying to jump to an actual conclusion they should be one power, but I think it should be examined. Like it was worthwhile to examine it with Regen adn Aid and Healing and all that, but in the end I'm not sure the result was worthwhile.

 

I think the only practical (as opposed to academic) reason to make EDM an Adder, just as it is now without modification, to Tport would be that it would allow you to lump them in a framework or such (which of course could even be a bad thing, purely speaking in efficiency, but perhaps conceptually it's good, I really don't know at this point). Also, this could clarify the location versus movement versus dimension issues, possibly.

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Sometimes, I think the old days in which duration wasn't formally addressed systemically may have been superior. But just sometimes. I recognize the need to do so in an actual toolkit...though in a pure game, one wouldn't need to do this - just define it all case by case and move on. And in the old days of course Champions was a singular game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Well, I'm not trying to jump to an actual conclusion they should be one power, but I think it should be examined. Like it was worthwhile to examine it with Regen adn Aid and Healing and all that, but in the end I'm not sure the result was worthwhile.

 

I think the only practical (as opposed to academic) reason to make EDM an Adder, just as it is now without modification, to Tport would be that it would allow you to lump them in a framework or such (which of course could even be a bad thing, purely speaking in efficiency, but perhaps conceptually it's good, I really don't know at this point). Also, this could clarify the location versus movement versus dimension issues, possibly.

To be honest .. this would simply encourage me to buy Teleport twice - once for EDM and once with a, most likely, Advantaged Teleport. i.e. practically no different than it is now.

 

We could simply lump everything into "Movement" and have one define the movement type as Flying/Running/Swimming/Teleporting etc... at purchase.

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

To be honest .. this would simply encourage me to buy Teleport twice - once for EDM and once with a, most likely, Advantaged Teleport. i.e. practically no different than it is now.

 

We could simply lump everything into "Movement" and have one define the movement type as Flying/Running/Swimming/Teleporting etc... at purchase.

Yeah, but to be fair I'm certainly not going that far even by implication - we are talking about potentially well-related powers that MIGHT mesh well.

 

To be specific, but bear with me because I am thinking out loud and rambling...

 

Let's say you want to come back to within 6" of where you started from, as a combat tactic where you leave for a phase, perhaps you even do something, then come back. The rules "as is" state "A character either returns to his home dimension in the same location from which he left it, or he only travels as far as he traveled in the alternate dimension." The only exception for this is GM permission. Let's say that the GM doesn't want to give this permission. and we want something book-legal. The nature of the powers is not so different, not like flying and running or such (although I would really like to see a book-legal way to combine modes of transport in one phase - is there a way that I just haven't looked at?).

 

So let's say we simply made EDM an Adder to Tport, for pure simplicity of example here. We buy the inches of Teleport, do the Adder, and done.

 

Similarly, this would be useful if one wanted to use the Tport in BOTH directions, so you could buy EDM with a single location, but at least be able to move a few inches IN THE SAME PHASE.

 

Also, this allows our Tport and EDM to likely fit better into an EC or similar, making the costs add in a way keeping them "around" the level of other powers, instead of the Tport being too few points or such.

 

Thoughts?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Yeah, but to be fair I'm certainly not going that far even by implication - we are talking about potentially well-related powers that MIGHT mesh well.

 

To be specific, but bear with me because I am thinking out loud and rambling...

 

Let's say you want to come back to within 6" of where you started from, as a combat tactic where you leave for a phase, perhaps you even do something, then come back. The rules "as is" state "A character either returns to his home dimension in the same location from which he left it, or he only travels as far as he traveled in the alternate dimension." The only exception for this is GM permission. Let's say that the GM doesn't want to give this permission. and we want something book-legal. The nature of the powers is not so different, not like flying and running or such (although I would really like to see a book-legal way to combine modes of transport in one phase - is there a way that I just haven't looked at?).

 

So let's say we simply made EDM an Adder to Tport, for pure simplicity of example here. We buy the inches of Teleport, do the Adder, and done.

 

Similarly, this would be useful if one wanted to use the Tport in BOTH directions, so you could buy EDM with a single location, but at least be able to move a few inches IN THE SAME PHASE.

 

Also, this allows our Tport and EDM to likely fit better into an EC or similar, making the costs add in a way keeping them "around" the level of other powers, instead of the Tport being too few points or such.

 

Thoughts?

I see it, and I'm halfway there.

 

some thoughts...

 

the Any Location portion of EDM would be have to specify that it meant any location in Another Dimension other than the Source Dimension, as Teleport would have to be the inches of displacement in the Source. Which cause the disparity that you can move only a short distance in the Source Dimension but anywhere in the Target Dimension.

 

I don't see this aspect of EDM meshing with Teleport at all. Especially if you're using EDM as a type of very long range movement (not a completely kosher use of EDM, but not completely out of whack either).

 

I can agree they have very similar properties, but I see them as different enough that I don't think they should be combined. Especially considering that Teleport can have a wide range of SFX that have nothing to do with "dimensions".

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I see it, and I'm halfway there.

 

some thoughts...

 

the Any Location portion of EDM would be have to specify that it meant any location in Another Dimension other than the Source Dimension, as Teleport would have to be the inches of displacement in the Source. Which cause the disparity that you can move only a short distance in the Source Dimension but anywhere in the Target Dimension.

 

I don't see this aspect of EDM meshing with Teleport at all. Especially if you're using EDM as a type of very long range movement (not a completely kosher use of EDM, but not completely out of whack either).

 

I can agree they have very similar properties, but I see them as different enough that I don't think they should be combined. Especially considering that Teleport can have a wide range of SFX that have nothing to do with "dimensions".

As to your first paragraph, the thing is these are the current rules. Of course you could (and would) add Megascale to Teleport.

 

Of course as to the 2nd paragraph, it's a way to make it kosher. In theory, you could add an Ader or Advantage for "same phase", which would put it all together (whether that's good or bad).

 

Like I said, this is just spitballing to see IF it would make sense - I'm not selling it, but I am trying to explore to "make" a case to see how tenuous or useful it is.

 

One aspect, to me, iis that logically the two are pretty similar, you are popping out of this time and space into another one, which seems to cross over pretty well from that perspective, so I would think they should be related. HOWEVER, this IS SFX, but to me only "majority" SFX, there's also a mechanical overlap. Hence the interest.

 

Also, IF they can be put together, it resolves a silly (but understandable) issue wherein the GM can give permission for an x-dim to go anywhere without respect to teleport, thereby making teleport simply a mechanically quicker way to do the same thing for fewer points, but rendering teleport silly for any distance if time is not the primary issue. For a higher SPD character, just buy x-dim + GM permission (if you ALSO have the reason because you really do use x-dim), and you've circumvented another power.

 

Again, just thoughts as well.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

If a mechanic were to be put forth that combined them I'd be more than willing to entertain the idea of playtesting it and such.

 

I'd definitely have to do that before I'm convinced either way .. right now I'm fence sitting on the idea. I like them seperate, for the simple idea that Teleport is a standard movement type power and that you don't ness. have to leave the Dimension to use it. And I like the idea of them being combined since they share so many similarities it almost seems silly not to do so.

[Utech]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I think that EDM and Teleport feel very different and (at base) are intended for different things. EDM is meant to move you to another dimension. Teleport is meant to move you to another location in your current dimension.

 

The similarity, to me, is much like that between Energy Blast and Ranged Killing Attack. I find that they feel very different and (at base) are intended for different things. Energy Blast is meant to damage things or people. Ranged Killing Attack is meant to maim or kill people.

 

While it is possible to have Energy Blasts that are very similar to Ranged Killing Attacks (sometimes even fired from the same weapon, a la "rubber bullets"!), the powers are (at base) intended for different things. Thus there are two powers.

 

While it is possible to have EDM that is very similar to Teleport, the powers are (at base) intended for different things. Thus there are two powers.

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

If a mechanic were to be put forth that combined them I'd be more than willing to entertain the idea of playtesting it and such.

 

I'd definitely have to do that before I'm convinced either way .. right now I'm fence sitting on the idea. I like them seperate, for the simple idea that Teleport is a standard movement type power and that you don't ness. have to leave the Dimension to use it. And I like the idea of them being combined since they share so many similarities it almost seems silly not to do so.

Was "that you don't ness" meaning "that you don't miss"?

 

You know, I forgot all about rolling for success on EDM...

[zornwil]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I think that EDM and Teleport feel very different and (at base) are intended for different things. EDM is meant to move you to another dimension. Teleport is meant to move you to another location in your current dimension.

 

The similarity, to me, is much like that between Energy Blast and Ranged Killing Attack. I find that they feel very different and (at base) are intended for different things. Energy Blast is meant to damage things or people. Ranged Killing Attack is meant to maim or kill people.

 

While it is possible to have Energy Blasts that are very similar to Ranged Killing Attacks (sometimes even fired from the same weapon, a la "rubber bullets"!), the powers are (at base) intended for different things. Thus there are two powers.

 

While it is possible to have EDM that is very similar to Teleport, the powers are (at base) intended for different things. Thus there are two powers.

I don't feel EB and RKA are different very much aside from the purely-for-balance issue that RKA has an implicit "Bypasses Resistant Defenses" Advantage applied BEFORE applying any other Advs or Lims along with an idea of KA doing less STUN and more BOD, though studies tend to indicate that at certain power levels it doesn't always act that way (in fact, as demonstrated elsewhere with the stun multiple they often really don't do much BOD but absolutely do tons of STUN, contrary to their stated purpose). Now, that's not a bad thing - it's a very good thing. The pre-applied "Killing Attack Advantage" is necessary for balance, but it is only necessary for balance. This is a very good reason to break out some things - in fact, it's a big reason we don't have something like 6 powers period which all require various modifiers to get them into the power set we have now.

 

Besides, I don't think "feel" is a legitimate way to differentiate powers in HERO. A big part of HERO's core philosophy is divorcing, to the extent possible (obviously the system in many places recognizes it's not possible), SFX from mechanics. Mechanics are feel-irrelevant, except to the extent it's necessary for a genre or for all genra. In the former case, again that's anathema to a "universal" system, although to be fair in the latter case it's totally fair game and could speak to just what you are saying. And probably does inform a few constructs...perhaps Teleport and EDM in fact. It's certainly (IMHO of course) why STR is divorced from Telekinesis.

 

That being said, you do bring up a legit issue in general, regardless of my opinion of the example, for one primary reason which at its very heart is a big question mark looming over HERO - is HERO a game or a toolkit? If it's really a game, then it is very important to have salient "feel" distinctions, IF they are universal (or really at least a critical mass) among genra. If it's really a toolkit, then this becomes largely irrelevant. In the latter case, it becomes more important to really distinguish mechanics and to provide guidelines for applications to games and how people might want to split out such "feel" issues. In its current iteration, more than ever, HERO is both game and toolkit and neither game nor toolkit, falling into a strong compromise between both which works uncertainly in many situations. It provides many options and attempts to be strongly consistent, like a toolkit, but then provides many exceptions and many "dos and don'ts" at the same time in attempting to be a single game played a certain way. Out of this, many of these "should this power be devolved to basics" (similar to this one) and "should this power be built up into a certain flavor" (such as should we have Regen as is) come into play. In this current iteration, we now face a more esoteric set of questions than in 4th (the first real universal version of HERO/Champions) and we find it much harder to achieve answers that are system/game-wide accepted among the audience, I feel, than in the prior edition where I think the compromise was more successful yet we were left with many "how is this supposed to really work?" questions. And I think really your post goes right to the heart of this matter.