Dropping Da Bomb, continued

[ArgusSK]

Originally posted on Rules Questions. Any more input would be much appreciated! Thanks all...

 

I'm a GM with a player running a character "Da Bomb." Here are his main powers (in an EC):

 

40 points Desolidification (turns into a cloud form)

10" Flight linked to Desolidification

 

50 points Shrinking (condenses molecules)

30 points Density Increase linked to Shrinking

 

His main attack is to fly over someone in cloud form, then drop on them. I originally ruled that he gets regular STR damage, which with his Density Increase is 8d6 (from his regular 10 STR plus 30 STR for the Density Increase), and also added damage as per 5ER 436 for dropped objects. Since his Density Increase causes him to weigh 6,400 kg, it would take a 40 STR to lift him, so that causes an additional 8d6 damage for a total of 16d6.

 

My problems are:

 

1. 16d6 is a lot of damage for my campaign! Am I calculating this correctly? Do you have any alternate suggestions for how to calculate this damage? I did make a rule that he has to make a Breakfall roll to avoid taking damage himself, but that hasn't helped much so far...

 

2. If he starts his phase having Shrunk, his DCV is about 16. Until he acts, he is really hard to hit, at which time it appears he can take a 0-phase action to become Desolid, half-move fly to his target, take another 0-phase action to activate his Shrinking and Density Increase, and drop again. This makes him effectively unstoppable as he can't really be hit (except by mental powers or Explosions and the like). Am I missing something here, or do the rules allow this?

 

Thanks for wading through this...

Steve’s reply:

 

Well, first off, ultimately it's up to you as GM to rule on how you want things to work. If something seems "wrong," or it's doing too much damage for your comfort threshold, forbid it or change it.

 

1. If a heavy character just wants to drop on someone, he does damage as if he's a falling object -- he doesn't get to add his STR or anything like that. And since the character has fallen himself, he also takes the full falling damage he inflicts on his target.

 

If he wants to add STR while drop-attacking, he has to define the attack as a Move Through, with the attendant OCV and DCV penalties and the other restrictions (liking taking some damage himself). Use the Falling rules to determine his velocity, or if you prefer adopt some other method that makes sense to you.

 

2. Keep in mind that the rules generally forbid a character to both activate and de-activate a power in the same Phase (5ER 103). If he turns on his Desolidification early in the Phase, he can't turn it off after making a Half Move so he can now attack -- he has to stay Desolidified the entire Phase.

 

Beyond these basic rules points, I'd suggest posting your problem on the "Discussion" board so other GMs can offer suggestions and advice. If you have any follow-up questions for me, feel free to post 'em here.

__________________

Steve Long

HERO System Line Developer

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

I"m with Steve - I wouldn't allow STR Damage.

 

If he's dropping himself he does Velocity Damage based on the height he was dropped from to both himself and the target. Flat out.

 

And while Steve pointed out turning a power on and off in the same phase is not really allowed, I'm less inclined to let that be the problem - but it is a fair balancer to thigns like this.

 

If he wants to do a Move Through to get his STR involved he'll need to add Affects Real World to his other powers or unlink his Flight.

 

this is generally an extremely convoluted way to get a Fast Brick type ... why Desol at all if he's only using it for 1/2 a Phase during his Movement portion? Seems like a munchkin who isn't very good at it.

[EverKnight]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

I don't know if I am missing something here but Shrinking reduces mass by 1/8 every 10 points. If the Density Increase is linked to Shrinking then he will end up with a reduced mass overall.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

I don't know if I am missing something here but Shrinking reduces mass by 1/8 every 10 points. If the Density Increase is linked to Shrinking then he will end up with a reduced mass overall.

 

That's a good point. 30 points DI would take him up to 6,400 kg, and Shrinking brings him back down to 195 grams.

 

Even if we assume the DI increases his velocity, however, I would rule he can do a Move Through based on his falling velocity and his STR. That's 8d6 + V/3, but all the attendant OCV and DCV penalties that come along with it.

 

More importantly, however, remember how falling works. Ignoring DI for the moment, he should fall 5" in the segment he starts to fall, then 10" the next segment, and 15" the segment after. If he's moving 5" or 10", that Move Through damage is fairly unimpressive. If he's moving faster, why didn't his target get out of the way?

 

Even if it did work the way he thinks (16d6 and it all happens in a segment), it shouldn't take long for the villains to figure the tactic out.

 

V: "I reserve"

 

TB: "Turn solid over him and plummet"

 

V: "I take my reserved action and hit the falling hero."

 

Since he's no longer in control of his velocity, I would rule he's "prone", so half DCV, so 8. When he gets hit, he gets 6" knockback resistance from DI, and +15" knockback from Shrinking, so he's likely to sail a fair distance away.

 

[bTW, is the player a '70's Avengers fan? I recall that tactic used in #166]

[APE]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

Ooo That gave me an idea. Have him meet a Baseball theamed vilian with 40 strengh, a baseball bat that dose +4d6 dam plus has duoble knock back with some levels with the bat. The vilian can also have a change enviorment of baseball theamed music and an anouncer hits, strikes, and Home Runs.

[ArgusSK]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

Thanks so much for your input, everyone! Excellent points.

 

RE: the mass problem, I forgot to mention that the Shrinking is bought with a -1/2 limitation "Only useable at full strength, does not affect mass." The special effect is that his molecules get packed closer together, but his mass increases proportionately (just as the desolidification is spreading his molecules further apart).

 

Actually, this idea came about from Marvel's original Power Pack comic (Jack Power, The Mighty Mass Master!). My player is less of a munchkin than someone trying to emulate a comic book character...I just wasn't a whole lot of help during the character creation process...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

I forgot to mention that the Shrinking is bought with a -1/2 limitation "Only useable at full strength' date=' does not affect mass."[/quote']For this character, that's not a Limitation... it's an Advantage.

[pinecone]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

One more equalizer..the first time Da bomb trys to move through on an martial artist he's going to hate it...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

Stuff to think about:

 

1. Will you allow a ove through with a fall - which is basically uncontrolled movement?

 

2. If so, then (as has been suggested) I'd use the normal formula, with falling velocity. OCV penalties, maybe?

 

3. Moving through the ground means the character takes full damage from the attack.

 

4. I'd certainly let interested villains dive for cover (if they notice him)

 

5. I don't think Hero does damage by weight particularly well in the core rules and I think this example is a good one - a 195g character potentially doing a LOT of damage from what is basically a fall onto someone.

[Ben Seeman]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

I never thought I'd see the day when a Power Pack character was discussed on these boards.

 

Another way to implement the "Jack Hammer" is to build it as a HA and just say the rest is all special effect. Give it limitations like Must Be in Cloud Form, and link it to your Shrinking and DI and maybe even a Flight power that gets you safely to the ground without suffering Falling penalties. This means that at the start of his phase he'd make a half move Flight to where the guy is, Shrink, DI and then HA. Yeah, it's convoluted, but you don't suffer the DCV penalties of falling or suffer the OCV/DCV penalties and self-inflicted damage from a Move Through.

 

BTW - When Julie had the mass power she was called Molecula, Mistress of Density. I think Alex kept the Mass Master name when he took over the power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

I never thought I'd see the day when a Power Pack character was discussed on these boards.

 

Another way to implement the "Jack Hammer" is to build it as a HA and just say the rest is all special effect. Give it limitations like Must Be in Cloud Form, and link it to your Shrinking and DI and maybe even a Flight power that gets you safely to the ground without suffering Falling penalties. This means that at the start of his phase he'd make a half move Flight to where the guy is, Shrink, DI and then HA. Yeah, it's convoluted, but you don't suffer the DCV penalties of falling or suffer the OCV/DCV penalties and self-inflicted damage from a Move Through.

 

BTW - When Julie had the mass power she was called Molecula, Mistress of Density. I think Alex kept the Mass Master name when he took over the power.

 

You sad, sad man.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

RE: the mass problem' date=' I forgot to mention that the Shrinking is bought with a -1/2 limitation "Only useable at full strength, does not affect mass." The special effect is that his molecules get packed closer together, but his mass increases proportionately (just as the desolidification is spreading his molecules further apart).[/quote']

 

So basically, you're allowing the player to eliminate the drawbacks of Shrinking and giving him a point break for doing so. I'd have a bit of a concern with that.

 

I would suggest, rather, that he purchase 3 points of Knockback Resistance, Linked, for each level of shrinking. The mass issue I could chalk up to sfx, but elimination of the knockback penalty should cost points, not save them.

 

I don't know whether I would consider "all or nothing" a -1/2 limitation - maybe -1/4. Most characters tend to use powers like Shrinking to their full effect most of the time anyway.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dropping Da Bomb, continued

 

I would put the "all or nothing" at the same value as Beam, -1/4.