Opinion: EuroStar

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

So remember folks, it's only fair when ChuckG stacks the deck in favour of his favourites, after all it's not like his scenario doesn't start with "Gravitar always gets to attack first, Eurostar doesn't get to move or even contemplate taking advantage of Gravitar's weaknesses and Gravitar never makes a single mistake."

 

So to reiterate, my response was a well thought out reasonable scenario wherein Eurostar could take out Gravitar. It showed how Mentalla could use her mind control to take advantage of Gravitar's personality and use of Eurostar's strengths. The deck was not stacked [many things could alert Gravitar to Eurostar's presence, unlike Chuck G I'M not assuming my faves are infallible.]

 

Chuck G's response was, essentially: LALALALALALALALALALA!! I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU, I'M ALWAYS RIGHT! LALALALALALALALALALALA!!

[levi]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

To me it's more interesting to see a spiteful Gravitar create her own villain group to compete against Eurostar. Gravitar's group becomes the perfect place for Shamrock and a few others people wanted to see join Eurostar. Now you have Eurostorm committing crimes and appearing on scene to foil Eurostar crimes at every outting. You have a chance to add a new villain group to the CU and create real tention at the same time.

 

This would also be a great way to strengthen the current Eurostar roster.

 

1) Gravitar forms Eurostorm with Shamrock, Pantera, White Flame & The Whip II

 

2) Eurostorm shows up to trash Eurostar a couple of times before Gravitar's new team gets tired of her using them for her own purposes.

 

3) Fiacho contacts them independently using members of Eurostar to recruit thier countrymen. Scorpia appeals to Shamrock, Bora to Pantera, Mentalla to the White Flame & Fiacho to The Whip II

 

4) The next time the 2 Euro villain groups meet, the fix is in and the combined villains trounce Gravitar.

 

Maybe Fiacho gets the PCs involved to help soften up Gravitar. Would they work with a political madman like Fiacho if it means capturing the most dangerous mutant in the world? Of course, Fiacho turns on the PCs the minute Gravitar is secured and increases his status by eliminating an opponent who has embarassed him in the past as well as some prominent heroes.

[Haerandir]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

So remember folks, it's only fair when ChuckG stacks the deck in favour of his favourites, after all it's not like his scenario doesn't start with "Gravitar always gets to attack first, Eurostar doesn't get to move or even contemplate taking advantage of Gravitar's weaknesses and Gravitar never makes a single mistake."

 

So to reiterate, my response was a well thought out reasonable scenario wherein Eurostar could take out Gravitar. It showed how Mentalla could use her mind control to take advantage of Gravitar's personality and use of Eurostar's strengths. The deck was not stacked [many things could alert Gravitar to Eurostar's presence, unlike Chuck G I'M not assuming my faves are infallible.]

 

Chuck G's response was, essentially: LALALALALALALALALALA!! I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU, I'M ALWAYS RIGHT! LALALALALALALALALALALA!!

 

Incorrect. Firstly, Chuck's initial post included the rationale for running the test as a straight-up fight. You ignored this, presumably because you couldn't come up with a vaild counter-argument. Or you just didn't bother to read his post carefully.

 

Secondly, his response to you includes a fairly comprehensive list of flaws with your 'thought out and reasonable scenario', which you also haven't addressed, presumably becausee you've since realized you didn't actually think it out and it's not that reasonable.

 

And third, no, his response wasn't essentially LALALA, I'M NOT LISTENING, but yours was.

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Also, between her megalomania and her overconfidence I find it hard to belive that Gravitar is stable enough to maintain a secret ID in the first place. I'd imagine the only reason UNTIL hasn't cracked it already is because they have a million other things to do and aren't really capable of putting a dedicated taskforce out for every single villain in the world.

 

Eurostar on the other hand is reasonably dedicated to thier vengence and Fiacho has Deduction at 14-. Also, if Westgote's contacts are powerful ones [his character sheet simply says he has 30 points of contacts in the European and American underworlds, so obviously he's only as well connected as the GM wants him to be but logically he'd have at least one or two high placed contacts] they'd have a LOT of influence. To say nothing of the contacts possessed by Fiacho himself. Now assuming these people aren't happy about having an awesomely powered gravity controlling superbeing prone to temper tantrums wandering about [can't imagine that's good for thier business] wouldn't it stand to reason they'd lend a hand in getting rid of her? All Eurostar has to do is get enough information to justify a Deduction roll by Fiacho, if he makes it they've pierced her Secret ID. That's not even factoring in Mentalla's Mindscan or Telepathy abilities.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

I believe you missed the part where I said pushed attack in the other post.

 

Already answered that, in yet another post the several Eurostar boosters here have apparently not bothered to read in detail.

 

The average roll for a 16d6 (Pushed) Mind Control by Mentalla is 56, yes.

 

That, however, only makes EGO+30 on Gravitar by *one*. If you roll even *one* die out of sixteen lower than average, Gravitar escapes. Hence, my prior statement of 'even odds'. That is to say, even if you already assume that Mentalla got initiative, she still has only a 50-50 split of rolling dead average or above on her effect roll... because if she comes in even mildly below, she's toast.

 

And please note, this is assuming we actually *roll* for it, as we're assuming that 'average' means '3.5', not '3.0'. If we Standard Effect Mentalla's 16d6 Pushed, that's only 48, not 56 -- which means she has no chance.

[MitchellS]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Already answered that, in yet another post the several Eurostar boosters here have apparently not bothered to read in detail.

 

The average roll for a 16d6 (Pushed) Mind Control by Mentalla is 56, yes.

 

That, however, only makes EGO+30 on Gravitar by *one*. If you roll even *one* die out of sixteen lower than average, Gravitar escapes. Hence, my prior statement of 'even odds'. That is to say, even if you already assume that Mentalla got initiative, she still has only a 50-50 split of rolling dead average or above on her effect roll... because if she comes in even mildly below, she's toast.

 

And please note, this is assuming we actually *roll* for it, as we're assuming that 'average' means '3.5', not '3.0'. If we Standard Effect Mentalla's 16d6 Pushed, that's only 48, not 56 -- which means she has no chance.

Chuck, I understand you reasoning, but by the same token she could roll 10 over average. We have to base all encounters on AVERAGE when not actually rolling dice. Average is all we have to work with in hypotheticals.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Also' date=' between her megalomania and her overconfidence I find it hard to belive that Gravitar is stable enough to maintain a secret ID in the first place.[/quote']

 

The error in your reasoning is thus -- she does not have megalomania. Merely Overconfidence. (Granted, yes, she has the desire to conquer the world, but 'wanting to conquer the world' anything but equals 'psychologically unable to sustain a Secret ID', as the history of comics more than shows.) And the severity of her Psych Lim: Overconfidence is merely Moderate, not Strong or Total.

 

She also has an INT of 25.

 

I would suggest that those who are arguing against Gravitar in this thread first go and read her CKC writeup so that you know what her strengths and weaknesses genuinely are, not what they are rumored to be.

 

(add) And also, that they work with her writeup as it is actually written, not how they want it to be written for their convenience.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Chuck' date=' I understand you reasoning, but by the same token she could roll 10 over average. We have to base all encounters on AVERAGE when not actually rolling dice. Average is all we have to work with in hypotheticals.[/quote']

 

... no, we also have basic probability math, which lets us know the *odds* of rolling.

 

And the odds are, it is 50-50 that Mentalla will get to go first, and assuming she clears that hurdle, about 50-50 (maybe 51-49 in her favor) that she will roll enough effect to clear the second hurdle.

 

Which means, overall, her odds are around one in four, as that is the result of (1/2) ^ 2.

 

So, on the *average*, Mentalla is going to lose.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

If I were Mentalla, I'd try to use my first Mind Control attempt to "Attack Fuermacher" that might be a +20 but it would give her a chance to work something out.

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Incorrect. Firstly, Chuck's initial post included the rationale for running the test as a straight-up fight. You ignored this, presumably because you couldn't come up with a vaild counter-argument. Or you just didn't bother to read his post carefully.

 

Secondly, his response to you includes a fairly comprehensive list of flaws with your 'thought out and reasonable scenario', which you also haven't addressed, presumably becausee you've since realized you didn't actually think it out and it's not that reasonable.

 

And third, no, his response wasn't essentially LALALA, I'M NOT LISTENING, but yours was.

 

Yeah right, totally unreasonable because after all megalomaniacs who are also overconfident NEVER EVER make mistakes or foul up. I've made another post outlining how Fiacho could indeed have discovered Gravitar's secret ID, with no deck stacking or anything like that. Simply using the strengths of Eurostar, which ChuckG will proceed to ignore and taking advantage of the weaknesses of Gravitar, which ChuckG will also proceed to ignore.

 

Also, if Eurostar was in disguise and/or hiding how would Gravitar realise she was being snuck up on? Also at what point did I say that Gravitar was completely helpless. Yes I'm assuming that Mentalla's mind control attempt would work [because if she hits her EGO drain, which is ranged and follows it up with her Mind Control, Gravitar's EGO could be sufficiently reduced] but I never said that she couldn't break out of it. However if the ambush went off without a hitch, Gravitar would be in trouble which was my entire point with the post.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

If I were Mentalla' date=' I'd try to use my first Mind Control attempt to "Attack Fuermacher" that might be a +20 but it would give her a chance to work something out.[/quote']

 

If I were Gravitar, I'd answer that Mind Control by attacking Feuermacher -- with my Area Effect TK smash, which would also catch Mentalla in the radius of effect.

[MitchellS]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

... no, we also have basic probability math, which lets us know the *odds* of rolling.

 

And the odds are, it is 50-50 that Mentalla will get to go first, and assuming she clears that hurdle, about 50-50 (maybe 51-49 in her favor) that she will roll enough effect to clear the second hurdle.

 

Which means, overall, her odds are around one in four, as that is the result of (1/2) ^ 2.

 

So, on the *average*, Mentalla is going to lose.

No, those aren't her odds. The simple fact is the bell curve doesn't work like that. On average they will go at the same time. On average Mentalla will roll 56 with a push. On average Gravitar will get a +30 effect. I'm sorry you don't like that, but that's just the way averages work.

 

If Mentalla goes first, Eurostar wins most of the time. If Gravitar goes first, she wins most of the time. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Yeah right' date=' totally unreasonable because after all megalomaniacs who are also overconfident NEVER EVER make mistakes or foul up.[/quote']

 

You mean like Fiacho?

 

You are arguing that Gravitar must conveniently act stupid in your scenario while completely ignoring the fact that Eurostar is anything but the most calm-headed, enlightened bunch of people around. Deck-stacking we called, and deck-stacking we have found.

[MitchellS]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

If I were Gravitar' date=' I'd answer that Mind Control by attacking Feuermacher -- with my Area Effect TK smash, which would also catch Mentalla in the radius of effect. [/quote']

See, that TK smash takes nothing into account. Do some people attempt to dive for cover? Do some attempt to fly over it? Is all of Eurostar standing in a close group waiting for it? Did Fiacho blow his tactics roll and forget about all of his prior encounters with Gravitar? You can't play Eurostar like the Teen Titans and Gravitar like Batman leading the JLA takeover. The simple fact is that Fiacho is the tactician and Gravitar is the overconfident debutant. They should be played that way.

[levi]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

When you guys get done arguing, what did you think of this plot idea?

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=909489&postcount=77

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

The error in your reasoning is thus -- she does not have megalomania. Merely Overconfidence. (Granted' date=' yes, she has the desire to conquer the world, but 'wanting to conquer the world' anything but equals 'psychologically unable to sustain a Secret ID', as the history of comics more than shows.) And the severity of her Psych Lim: Overconfidence is merely [i']Moderate[/i], not Strong or Total.

 

She also has an INT of 25.

 

I would suggest that those who are arguing against Gravitar in this thread first go and read her CKC writeup so that you know what her strengths and weaknesses genuinely are, not what they are rumored to be.

 

(add) And also, that they work with her writeup as it is actually written, not how they want it to be written for their convenience.

 

Which completely ignores the fact that due to her megalomania, she views herself to be above normal people, a veritable goddess in fact. Her thought process is less likely to be "I'd better be careful lest somebody find out my secret identity" as opposed to "no mere mortal could possibly figure out that I am Gravitar." On top of that she's overconfident. She may be smart but with the size of her ego how likely is it that she's going to be worrying that others might be smart enough to thwart her?

 

Yes, her intelligence is a strength, however her megalomania and overconfidence taken together far overshadow that strength.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Also' date=' if Eurostar was in disguise and/or hiding how would Gravitar realise she was being snuck up on?[/quote']

 

Ah yes, Eurostar, those well-known masters of disguise and subtle infiltration.

 

... none of whom have the Disguise skill, except Scorpia (correction -- and Fiacho)... who, if snuck into this party alone, cannot take Gravitar... and cannot cover up all of her friends if she brings them with

 

More than half of whom have Distinctive Features whose difficulty of concealment range from 'difficult' to 'impossible'.

 

All of whom have Extreme Reputations at a high frequency of recognition, meaning that if even *one single person at the entire party* can make a simple 11- roll -- and they will all get a chance to roll -- their cover goes down the tubes and she has all the warning she needs.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Which completely ignores the fact that due to her megalomania [...]

 

Gravitar does not have the Psych Lim of Megalomania. Your entire argument is based on a false premise. It does not hold, and never will.

 

Furthermore, since Fiacho is even *MORE* arrogant than she is, if we allow in your "logic" that "world-conquering villain = stupid", then congrats, Eurostar will now display the collective smarts of Flesh Gordon.

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

You mean like Fiacho?

 

You are arguing that Gravitar must conveniently act stupid in your scenario while completely ignoring the fact that Eurostar is anything but the most calm-headed, enlightened bunch of people around. Deck-stacking we called, and deck-stacking we have found.

 

And as per usual you aren't bright enough to realise that you're looking in a mirror when you called it. I'm not calling for Gravitar to act stupid, I'm calling for her to be PLAYED THE WAY HER DISADS INDICATE she should be played.

 

You on the other hand have given Gravitar every sort of advantage and everytime somebody tries to point that out to you, you ignore it.

 

Trolling we have called, trolling we have found.

 

PLONK!

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

And as per usual you aren't bright enough to realise that you're looking in a mirror when you called it. I'm not calling for Gravitar to act stupid' date=' I'm calling for her to be PLAYED THE WAY HER DISADS INDICATE she should be played.[/quote']

 

You mean the disad of Megalomania that isn't written on her character sheet anywhere, because she doesn't actually have it?

 

Swing and a miss, slugger.

[MitchellS]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

This would also be a great way to strengthen the current Eurostar roster.

 

1) Gravitar forms Eurostorm with Shamrock, Pantera, White Flame & The Whip II

 

2) Eurostorm shows up to trash Eurostar a couple of times before Gravitar's new team gets tired of her using them for her own purposes.

 

3) Fiacho contacts them independently using members of Eurostar to recruit thier countrymen. Scorpia appeals to Shamrock, Bora to Pantera, Mentalla to the White Flame & Fiacho to The Whip II

 

4) The next time the 2 Euro villain groups meet, the fix is in and the combined villains trounce Gravitar.

 

Maybe Fiacho gets the PCs involved to help soften up Gravitar. Would they work with a political madman like Fiacho if it means capturing the most dangerous mutant in the world? Of course, Fiacho turns on the PCs the minute Gravitar is secured and increases his status by eliminating an opponent who has embarassed him in the past as well as some prominent heroes.

There's a lot of twists to that but I don't think I'd choose those particular characters for Gravitar. I don't think she'd want to deal with a beastial Pantera, for example [also it looks like Pantera will soon be joining Eurostar]. I'd also have Shamrock and Scorpia as enemies; possibly former lovers who went sour when Scorpia tried to kill him [he only survived thanks to his luck]. Bora is dead so we can't worry about her.

 

I would think Gravitar would pick people who are enemies of Eurostar for whatever reason [like my Shamrock example above]. She would want people that would want to hurt Eurostar [maybe Bora had a kid sister? maybe some dead VIPER agent's brother got a power-boost and is seeking revenge, etc.]. The purpose of her group is really just to taunt Eurostar, IMO. They're both filthy rich so money is not an object. Gravitar can pay whatever she needs to pay to get the job done.

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Gotcha! She does so have the disad of Megalomania, I know this because I LOOKED AT HER WRITE-UP NOT MORE THEN FIVE MINUTES AGO! So who was rewriting character's sheets to suit thier own needs again?

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

You mean to say Chuck, that my arguement will never hold up because you will keep altering the facts to suit you?

[Gary]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

... no, we also have basic probability math, which lets us know the *odds* of rolling.

 

And the odds are, it is 50-50 that Mentalla will get to go first, and assuming she clears that hurdle, about 50-50 (maybe 51-49 in her favor) that she will roll enough effect to clear the second hurdle.

 

Which means, overall, her odds are around one in four, as that is the result of (1/2) ^ 2.

 

So, on the *average*, Mentalla is going to lose.

 

 

Odds of rolling 55+ on 16d6 is 58.6%. Odds of beating or tying someone else on 3d6 is 54.6%. Total probability is .586*.546=32%. And that assumes that Mentalla actually gets a hit which isn't a guarantee.

[MitchellS]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Odds of rolling 55+ on 16d6 is 58.6%. Odds of beating or tying someone else on 3d6 is 54.6%. Total probability is .586*.546=32%. And that assumes that Mentalla actually gets a hit which isn't a guarantee.

With a 14- to hit the odds are pretty good.