Question about 350pt campaign limits...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

One of the reasons, I believe (no evidence, really) that the average Defense is lower in the 5th Edition Champions Universe (CU5) than before is that it's part of an attempt to speed up the fights, which it must be admitted, can become glacially slow in some circumstances. More damage per shot=faster fights. Not necessarily the best, or most elegant solution, but it is the simplest. The suggested rule about 'no recoveries when the PCs are about to sew it up' is another one I use.

 

In my experience, most slow combats happen when neither team is using tactics and the fight has become, basically, four or five separate one-on-one fights. Since I tend to be the leader in Champions games (at least, the combat leader ... I play good tacticians), if people listen to me, we don't have that problem. It's (almost) always better to flatten one opponent than damage, but not KO, many of them.

 

To answer the question about agent-level foes ... to be honest, I rarely use them, simply because it gets annoying to run the sheer numbers of them that it takes to challenge the PCs, assuming they even can. Usually, when I use agents, they have setup weaponry (Entangles, Flashes) that assists the main baddie in combat, along with weapons that work fine against normals but generally only tick off supers.

 

If my Mystic Champions game takes off, though, I'll probably use some low-level demons as grunt agents (analogous, in some ways, to the Power Rangers Enemy Foot Soldiers) with a lieutenant type (250 points or so).

[Agent X]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Hmmm.

 

I usually do a 12 DC cap, with some characters having the limited ability to exceed it while suffering drawbacks (for example, a 60 STR brick with +20 STR with a x10 END cost for emergencies). No real 'active point' cap beyond keeping it reasonable.

 

Defenses usually range from 18 to 30, depending on character type (martial artists are lower, bricks are higher, etc.). Broad-based Damage Reduction affects this, of course. Hardening doesn't count against the defense points.

 

SPD range is usually 4-7 (Usually 5 or 6), DEX range 20-33.

 

No significant limits on skills other than what the player is willing to spend on them.

 

No CV limits because, in most cases, you start to get diminishing returns past a certain point. For example, if the typical villain DCV is 9, and you have an OCV 9, that's a 65 percent (or so) chance to hit. OCV 10 makes it 75 percent, but the amount you gain becomes less with every additional level due to the 3d6 method of rolling and its bell curve.

A caveat on the diminishing returns. If the character has long-range attacks then it takes a while for the OCV to have diminishing returns as it effectively allows the character to pick the "sweet spot" to make it much more difficult for the target to hit him/her. Also, the higher the OCV the more effective any maneuvers that bleed off OCV become like move throughs and rapid fire attacks.

[Agent X]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

One of the reasons, I believe (no evidence, really) that the average Defense is lower in the 5th Edition Champions Universe (CU5) than before is that it's part of an attempt to speed up the fights, which it must be admitted, can become glacially slow in some circumstances. More damage per shot=faster fights. Not necessarily the best, or most elegant solution, but it is the simplest. The suggested rule about 'no recoveries when the PCs are about to sew it up' is another one I use.

 

In my experience, most slow combats happen when neither team is using tactics and the fight has become, basically, four or five separate one-on-one fights. Since I tend to be the leader in Champions games (at least, the combat leader ... I play good tacticians), if people listen to me, we don't have that problem. It's (almost) always better to flatten one opponent than damage, but not KO, many of them.

 

To answer the question about agent-level foes ... to be honest, I rarely use them, simply because it gets annoying to run the sheer numbers of them that it takes to challenge the PCs, assuming they even can. Usually, when I use agents, they have setup weaponry (Entangles, Flashes) that assists the main baddie in combat, along with weapons that work fine against normals but generally only tick off supers.

 

If my Mystic Champions game takes off, though, I'll probably use some low-level demons as grunt agents (analogous, in some ways, to the Power Rangers Enemy Foot Soldiers) with a lieutenant type (250 points or so).

I think it's a poor choice to speed up the game. I'd rather look at the combat rules than set the game up to have a "one-punch" ko become the norm. If you want to speed up the game use more standard effect attacks or get rid of the Post-12 Recovery or the like.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

A caveat on the diminishing returns. If the character has long-range attacks then it takes a while for the OCV to have diminishing returns as it effectively allows the character to pick the "sweet spot" to make it much more difficult for the target to hit him/her. Also' date=' the higher the OCV the more effective any maneuvers that bleed off OCV become like move throughs and rapid fire attacks.[/quote']As with Skills over 17-, one major use for high OCV is to counter penalties. A -4 penalty for Range is a lot less significant to a PC with a 14 OCV than it is for a PC with a 10 OCV.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Few general guidelines: Players unfamiliar with the Hero System' date=' don't get to have VPPs and players with high speed scores are expected to be concise with most of their actions.[/quote']

 

Gad yes. Both of those are agonizing to wait through. We have one player especially who loves making up high-speed, high-dex characters, but can never decide what he's going to do, always holds action, etc. Even ends up waiting until his next phase and losing actions because he can't figure out what to do.

 

On some occaisions as GM I've gotten annoyed enough by it that in order to speed things up, when his phase comes up, I just announce, "X (indecisive player), holding phase. Y (other player), your action" and proceed with the turn until he decides what he wants to do.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Gad yes. Both of those are agonizing to wait through. We have one player especially who loves making up high-speed, high-dex characters, but can never decide what he's going to do, always holds action, etc. Even ends up waiting until his next phase and losing actions because he can't figure out what to do.

 

On some occaisions as GM I've gotten annoyed enough by it that in order to speed things up, when his phase comes up, I just announce, "X (indecisive player), holding phase. Y (other player), your action" and proceed with the turn until he decides what he wants to do.

 

It soulds like you are penalizing the High SPD/DEX character when it comes to abortable maneuvers like Block, Dodge, including optional ones (Roll with the punch, Dive-For-Cover, etc..). High SPD and DEX does not automatically mean a character must be impatient like the Flash. Most high-end Martial Artist characters depend on those extra phases to study and react to their opponent. Just attacking first all the time doesn't fit at all.

 

HM

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

It soulds like you are penalizing the High SPD/DEX character when it comes to abortable maneuvers like Block, Dodge, including optional ones (Roll with the punch, Dive-For-Cover, etc..). High SPD and DEX does not automatically mean a character must be impatient like the Flash. Most high-end Martial Artist characters depend on those extra phases to study and react to their opponent. Just attacking first all the time doesn't fit at all.

 

HM

 

Not at all. With this player, he wants to do *something*, but can't figure out what he wants to do, and just defaults to "reserve" because he can't decide. Holding an action in order to counter the enemy's moves and give them a one-two is a good idea and smart fighting. Being a 30 Dex, SPD 8 character and holding your segment 2 action, when you're going again on seg 3 / Dex 30 and the next-fastest person doesn't go on seg 2, and goes on seg 3 at Dex 23, doesn't make much sense.

 

Part of this sort of thing (along with some players and VPPs or nigh-infinite slot multipowers) I blame on video-game mentality - try to find the secret combo of buttons that lets you beat the level boss, and mash that over and over until you win.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Not at all. With this player' date=' he wants to do *something*, but can't figure out what he wants to do, and just defaults to "reserve" because he can't decide. Holding an action in order to counter the enemy's moves and give them a one-two is a good idea and smart fighting. Being a 30 Dex, SPD 8 character and holding your segment 2 action, when you're going again on seg 3 / Dex 30 and the next-fastest person doesn't go on seg 2, and goes on seg 3 at Dex 23, doesn't make much sense.[/quote']When I started running my PC Zl'f many years ago (DEX 43, SPD 9) one of the most difficult things for me to learn as a player was how to use those Phases correctly. I'm a naturally cautious person and came from running two much slower PCs in previous campaigns, so it took some effort to successfully roleplay a "Damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead!" type of character. I had to learn that a Phase unused is a Phase wasted. So if she can't attack to harm, then she'll knock them down with Martial Throw or Legsweep to help other teammates hit the baddie more easily. If she can't knock him down,then she'll reposition herself to cover other villains or go "bowling for mooks." If she can't reposition herself, then she'll Block to protect a comrade or innocent bystanders. There's always something to do.

 

I get the impressiion this is a fairly new player? Many players, especially new ones, can become overwhelmed by the vast number of combat options a Champions character has available and this is often exacerbated by being the fastest character because when you always go first you can't follow your teammates' lead. Perhaps you could sit down with this player and come up with a "checklist" of actions in order of descending usefulness? (You might also suggest he try a somewhat slower PC until he has a better handle on the system.)

[CBikle]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Another thing is whether or not the high SPD player is a heavy smoker.

 

If the player has to leave the table every 20 minutes to get a smoking break, you're going to have to figure out how you want to handle that.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

My Champions of Vancouver Campaign Limits

http:// http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=740513&postcount=1

 

Cheers

 

QM

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Another thing is whether or not the high SPD player is a heavy smoker.

 

If the player has to leave the table every 20 minutes to get a smoking break, you're going to have to figure out how you want to handle that.

 

If he takes smoke breaks THAT often, you might not have to worry about it for very long.

[Force]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

My Champions of Vancouver Campaign Limits

http:// http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=740513&postcount=1

 

Cheers

 

QM

 

Love the luck rules!

 

Keep the info coming folks!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

I really don't have any hard-and-fast rules, for the most part; most of it goes by gut evaluation (based on a couple decades of experience GMing the HERO System) as to what is acceptable or not. A general guideline I tend to use for my 350 point campaigns is "nothing over 75 Active Points without a good reason."

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

I get the impressiion this is a fairly new player? Many players' date=' especially new ones, can become overwhelmed by the vast number of combat options a Champions character has available and this is often exacerbated by being the fastest character because when you always go first you can't follow your teammates' lead. Perhaps you could sit down with this player and come up with a "checklist" of actions in order of descending usefulness? (You might also suggest he try a somewhat slower PC until he has a better handle on the system.)[/quote']

 

While he is newer to the system than some of us in the group, I would hardly call someone with 15yrs of Champions experience with our group "new."

[OddHat]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Frankly' date=' what kind of limits/ratios do you play in?[/quote']

 

I really don't have hard limits as such.

 

DC 10, 12, 15 or higher?

 

I generally won't allow a PC who can't manage at least an 8 DC attack, and most average around 12 DC. I encourage PCs to be built with a special attack or super-push that carries very high END costs or only 1 charge, and which may be used only once per adventure at most; it fits my style of play. Players are asked not to use that attack until all seems lost or a similar very dramatically appropriate moment arives.

 

Defense ratios of 1.5, 2, 2.5 or higher when compared to dc's?

 

Right now, 2.5 times your own standard attack's DCs in Superhero games, 1.5 times your own standard attack in Pulp games. I've used 3.5 in games with a "cosmic" feel, and it worked well. Damage Reduction has become my prefered method to build characters who can keep going in a slugfest rather than pure PD and ED.

 

Active point limits of 60, 75, 90 or higher?

 

Mostly it caps at 80, but I have allowed much higher depending on the power and the effect it will have on the game.

 

Minimum number of points in skills?

 

The PC must pay for any KS, PS or SS called for by his origin and back story, and amnesiac clone are of no interest to me. So, no hard minimum, but it's rarely less than 10 (not counting combat or adventure oriented skills).

 

CV Limits? OCV/DCV limits?

 

6min-15max, counting levels. Some characters will almost never be hit, some will get smacked around constantly. That fits the comics.