Worst comic book superfight ever

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

How would Spiderman's senses know this' date=' on this level? I never got the sense they were supernatural - they merely appreciate the nuances of events around him extremely well. As such, all his spider sense should know would be "incoming hand under" and then the reflex of "pull back now!" would go off. [/quote']The spider-sense is supernatural though. It alerts him to threats he couldn't possible sense normally, and one at least one occasion, probably more, knew a crook was bluffing about attacking him because he spidey-sense didn't go off.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So if Superman sans invulnerability is akin to Thor' date=' what edge does the invulnerability give him?[/quote'] Apparently he was always invulnerable against physical attacks (which does not ring true with how he's reacted to powerful attacks) or just slightly vulnerable to massive physical attacks.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The spider-sense is supernatural though. It alerts him to threats he couldn't possible sense normally' date=' and one at least one occasion, probably more, knew a crook was bluffing about attacking him because he spidey-sense didn't go off.[/quote'] But Spidey's spider-sense has failed before AND folks in heightened emotional states tend to fixate a bit and ignore possibly important sensory input.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

After reading that' date=' I guess I really don't get Superman's powers (or Busiek's interpretation of them, anyway). He seems to be saying that Superman is a Thor/Hulk-level brick *and additionally* is invulnerable to almost everything except magic. Wouldn't that make him far more powerful than Thor and the Hulk? Or did I miss something?[/quote']

From what I'm aware, the magic vulnerability comes from Mxyzptlk (I know I got that wrong. I can pronounce it, but I still can't spell it without looking it up). In the beginning (or, well, just after the beginning, when he because the Super-Man we know and love) he was described as 'invulnerable'. In those days, they took that seriously. Today, 'invulnerability' is measurable. Back then, it was literal: an absolute. So if Super-Man is invulnerable, how can Mr Mxyzptlk affect him? Answer: he's vulnerable to magic.

 

(I believe I ran across that explanation on these very boards, but I can't remember who said it.)

 

Anyway... nowadays, the 'vulnerable to magic' remaisn, but the 'completely invulnerable EXCEPT to magic' doesn't so much. Superman is far more vulnerable nowadays than he ever was in the silver age. So... well, 'vulnerable to magic' is kind of a legacy description that, it appears, leads to confusion about what exactly it means. At least, as Kurt Busiek describes it.

 

Does that make any more sense, or am I just clouding the issue? Or did I get something wrong? >.> <.<

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He was downplaying the story of the special creation of Mjolnir, the magical properties of Uru, even the mechanical advantage of Thor hitting with an indestructible hammer. Basically, he was saying Thor's fist hits as hard as Thor's hammer as far as I read.

 

If he corrected himself later, cool. But I lost patience with his explanations as I've read old Thor comics too.

He never says Thor hits harder with his fists, he in fact states the very opposite.

 

And he wasn't downplaying Mjolnir, he was saying that while it packs a lot of magic, that doesn't really effect Superman, or Hulk or Gladiator for that matter. If you replaced Mjolnir with an adamantium hammer of the same size, Thor would do the same amount of damage to Superman, Hulk and Gladiator as he does with Mjolnir.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He was downplaying the story of the special creation of Mjolnir, the magical properties of Uru, even the mechanical advantage of Thor hitting with an indestructible hammer. Basically, he was saying Thor's fist hits as hard as Thor's hammer as far as I read.

 

If he corrected himself later, cool. But I lost patience with his explanations as I've read old Thor comics too.

He made his argument more explicit later. He wasn't arguing that Thor hit no harder with Mjolnir, just that Mjolnir had no magical 'hit harder' properties. Just the physical properties of being a huge honkin' super-hard hammer.

 

It's a sketchy argument, based on 'it hasn't been explicitly stated, and we've had other things explicitly stated, so it probably isn't there', but hey. It's an opinion.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

From what I'm aware, the magic vulnerability comes from Mxyzptlk (I know I got that wrong. I can pronounce it, but I still can't spell it without looking it up). In the beginning (or, well, just after the beginning, when he because the Super-Man we know and love) he was described as 'invulnerable'. In those days, they took that seriously. Today, 'invulnerability' is measurable. Back then, it was literal: an absolute. So if Super-Man is invulnerable, how can Mr Mxyzptlk affect him? Answer: he's vulnerable to magic.

 

(I believe I ran across that explanation on these very boards, but I can't remember who said it.)

 

Anyway... nowadays, the 'vulnerable to magic' remaisn, but the 'completely invulnerable EXCEPT to magic' doesn't so much. Superman is far more vulnerable nowadays than he ever was in the silver age. So... well, 'vulnerable to magic' is kind of a legacy description that, it appears, leads to confusion about what exactly it means. At least, as Kurt Busiek describes it.

 

Does that make any more sense, or am I just clouding the issue? Or did I get something wrong? >.> <.<

Thats pretty much it.

 

Superman in the 60's and 70's was invulnerable. Full stop. He was pretty much immune to damage. The only things that could effect him where kryptonite, red solar rays, and magic.

 

Current Superman isn't invulnerable, just really, really tough, but magic effects him the same way it would anyone else.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He never says Thor hits harder with his fists, he in fact states the very opposite.

 

And he wasn't downplaying Mjolnir, he was saying that while it packs a lot of magic, that doesn't really effect Superman, or Hulk or Gladiator for that matter. If you replaced Mjolnir with an adamantium hammer of the same size, Thor would do the same amount of damage to Superman, Hulk and Gladiator as he does with Mjolnir.

No, he said it didn't hit any harder. He may have clarified it later but I know what I read.

 

And he's still wrong on Adamantium = Uru Mjolnir for smashing.

 

I do agree though that Supes would not fold over because he got hit from Mjolnir.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He made his argument more explicit later. He wasn't arguing that Thor hit no harder with Mjolnir, just that Mjolnir had no magical 'hit harder' properties. Just the physical properties of being a huge honkin' super-hard hammer.

 

It's a sketchy argument, based on 'it hasn't been explicitly stated, and we've had other things explicitly stated, so it probably isn't there', but hey. It's an opinion.

Yep.

 

I know John Byrne is in the same camp as Kurt on the issue, where as Dan Jurgens disagrees.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yep.

 

I know John Byrne is in the same camp as Kurt on the issue, where as Dan Jurgens disagrees.

Gah. I love Kurt, I hate John, can't they be in opposite camps just to save my sanity? ;.;

 

*grins* Not that I'm vindictive, petty or small...

[gewing]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Out of curiousity' date=' to those supporting this battle/story as not being one of the worst superfights, would it be if Daredevil were essentially drawn in besides Spiderman? Woud it if drawn differently but Daredevil still wins by pummeling Firelord?[/quote']

 

 

That would be worse than Hulk being knocked out by falling in a hole.

 

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Thats pretty much it.

 

Superman in the 60's and 70's was invulnerable. Full stop. He was pretty much immune to damage. The only things that could effect him where kryptonite, red solar rays, and magic.

 

Current Superman isn't invulnerable, just really, really tough, but magic effects him the same way it would anyone else.

So basically, he's not "vulnerable to magic."

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So basically' date=' he's [i']not[/i] "vulnerable to magic."

Or rather, he's 'vulnerable' magic in the same way that you or I are 'vulnerable' to knives. In that, we can be hurt.

 

According to Kurt, he just doesn't have any particular 'Vulnerable: 2x effect' disadvantage.

 

Blame the English language for having words with too many nuances.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Or rather' date=' he's 'vulnerable' magic in the same way that you or I are 'vulnerable' to knives. In that, we can be hurt.[/quote']

So he's not as tough as Thor and the Hulk when it comes to magic attacks? He's like a normal guy?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The spider-sense is supernatural though. It alerts him to threats he couldn't possible sense normally' date=' and one at least one occasion, probably more, knew a crook was bluffing about attacking him because he spidey-sense didn't go off.[/quote']

 

Yup. My point is... ok, to use Champions gamespeak, it's not Discriminatory. It doesn't tell him "You are in danger because six elephants, two piles of bricks, and an evil clown are falling off the roof above you!' It simply yells in his ear "GET THE HELL AWAY FROM WHERE YOU'RE STANDING *RIGHT NOW!* YOU'RE ABOUT TO GET SMASHED!"

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So he's not as tough as Thor and the Hulk when it comes to magic attacks? He's like a normal guy?

As Kurt buts it, if you cast a 'turn into a bunny' spell on Superman, he would turn into a bunny like anyone else. If you stab him wityh a knife enchanted to cut anything, it'll cut Superman like anyone else.

 

Thor has some resistance to magic so it might not work on him, don't think the Hulk does though, so it should work on Hulk just like Superman or anyone else.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yup. My point is... ok' date=' to use Champions gamespeak, it's not Discriminatory. It doesn't tell him "You are in danger because six elephants, two piles of bricks, and an evil clown are falling off the roof above you!' It simply yells in his ear "GET THE HELL AWAY FROM WHERE YOU'RE STANDING *RIGHT NOW!* YOU'RE ABOUT TO GET SMASHED!"[/quote'] It does clue him in as to which way to dodge.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He was downplaying the story of the special creation of Mjolnir, the magical properties of Uru, even the mechanical advantage of Thor hitting with an indestructible hammer. Basically, he was saying Thor's fist hits as hard as Thor's hammer as far as I read.

 

If he corrected himself later, cool. But I lost patience with his explanations as I've read old Thor comics too.

He did say later that Mjolnir does allow Thor to hit harder.

[gewing]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I see that Squirrel Girl has been studying under the original true master, Miowara Tomokato, aka 'Samurai Cat'.

 

For it was he who first discovered -- as he was punking everybody from Cthulhu to the entire line-up at Ragnarok to Nazi Germany to [..........], culminating in his defeat of every damned soul in Hell (including everyone he'd already killed in all the prior books) plus Lucifer himself...

 

... that so long as you are doing it for the purpose of getting laughs, the Dark Side of Absurdity will make you TRULY omnipotent.

 

Doreen has also ascended to achieve this truth, I see.

 

 

I only have one SC collection. Mars, Empire state...

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I hadn't thought about the pizza thing but it occurs to me now that Chuckg may have the answer he was looking for.

 

Firelord was suffering from low blood sugar.

Then Log was right...Firelord needed Hostess Fruit Pies!

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

By the way' date=' I may have missed it, did you answer the question I posted a couple times to you about HERO combat and do you assume that the only blows delivered are those reflected by to-hit and damage rolls? This is a pure curiousity question about how you view HERO combat. I'm not saying it has any applicability to this. I am genuinely curious.[/quote']

Since this is not directly on topic, hope I will be forgiven for sidesteping my vow of silence. I really did mean to respond to this earlier, but when I went back I couldn't find it.

 

"HERO combat and do you assume that the only blows delivered are those reflected by to-hit and damage rolls?"

 

Yes.

 

The concept of END and charges means we do need to keep tract of the attacks.

 

Imagine the alternative. You have a six-gun, simply as the prototypical focus with charges. You fire in your first phase, angain in your second. In your third phase the hammer clicks on an empty chamber.

 

"What happened to my other four bullets?"

 

"They were implied to have been fired, off panel, between phases."

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So if Superman sans invulnerability is akin to Thor' date=' what edge does the invulnerability give him?[/quote']

I'm confused by your statement - I mean, he is invulnerable (welll, depending on incarnation, anyway), so physical blows don't harm him at all.

 

Whereas Spiderman can punch out Thor on a good day... I'M KIDDING!

 

Seriously, I mean whereas Thor can get hurt by physical blows, but they have to be pretty darn hard.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The spider-sense is supernatural though. It alerts him to threats he couldn't possible sense normally' date=' and one at least one occasion, probably more, knew a crook was bluffing about attacking him because he spidey-sense didn't go off.[/quote']

I dunno. I won't say there haven't been moments like that, but I think it's built on an animal's sixth sense, so while it's perceived as "supernatural", I think it's merely an extemely heightned awareness coupled with instinctual reflexes based on that. In the story you cite, couldn't it be the way the bad guy's hands (didn't) move or similar? Sort of like how a person might sense someone is lying but not consicously realize they are picking up on a minor change in the person's voice pitch or hearing heartbeat changes.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

But Spidey's spider-sense has failed before AND folks in heightened emotional states tend to fixate a bit and ignore possibly important sensory input.

I think it has a 17/less or 16/less activation roll, so to speak.

 

Of course, it doesn't go off more for plot-driven reasons, this being fiction and all.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It's Danger Sense. It requires a PER roll.

 

Some days, Spidey rolls a 17-18.

 

Simple.