Worst comic book superfight ever

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

We're missing the point by talking about lightning specifically. The point is, if the Hulk gets smacked by an attack that does damage, said damage must contend with his uber-physique. It doesn't matter whether the attack is magical or not. Whether it's Thor shooting a magic blast from his hammer or Iron Man shooting a repulsor ray, they both must overcome the Hulk's ridiculous toughness and stamina. There's no "special case" when the Hulk is facing magic.

 

The same goes for a normal person, as well - there's no "special case" for magic. However a normal person doesn't have the Hulk's physique, so he'll go down on the first shot, magic or not. See the difference? (I hope I don't sound snippy, but I would have thought this was self-evident.)

 

 

The Defenders were a weird team. I never got into them, but it probably had more to do with the book's art than anything else.

 

Valkyrie was transgendered?

See, that's where I differentiate between physical and magical MANIFESTATION as opposed to SOURCE.

 

McCoy and I were just offlining about this, I'm just going to snip what I just sent a moment ago. This is along the lines of how I generally do things, and I THINK more or less what Busiek is talking about (PS - Busiek cites DC vampires as being different in their orientation than I list below, I'm sure just having read it reminded me of vampires, but, anyway, it's not to be confused with his specific discussionon DC vampires and their pecularities):

 

Oh, sure, I'm not pretending any sort of "realism" or "orthodoxy". Just by way of further explanation, though, I see magical manifestations, in general, in 2 ways:

 

1 - a magical source but the manifestation is real, physical - it doesn't matter (generally) if you resist magic or not, it matters more how well you resist normal, physical phenomenon - even if behind the scenes it's all magically fueled; for example, when a vampire bites someone, that's real fangs, though the follow-up effects are magical (the transformative effects may be physical or magical or both, depending of course)

 

2 - a magical source and the manifestation is purely magical, by which I mean the striking/illusion/mental control, whatever, bypasses the normal physical laws; so a purely magic blast goes through armor or such and strikes it's target, solely (a person's body, a person's mind, an animal's physical form, whatever); these depend more on the rules of magic, as it were, and have no real relationship to physics as we know it; often, this doesn't leave logical physical traces - by this I think of things like the Adventure Comics incarnation of Spectre, the veangeful horror version (although in his case it's probably BOTH forms of manifestations at once)

 

So basically in the "There is no logical way that poor deluded Witch Doctor can call lightning down..." example, the lightning called down, if actual lightning, will hurt someone according to their energy defenses (in HERO terms). But if the lightning manifested does not obey physical laws, it goes further and strike at the person themselves, their "being". In that scenario, in the way I do it, the being struck might counter some or all of it if they can resist "that which is not real" (whether through their keen understanding of metaphysical/supernatural stuff or through their dense impenetrable belief system in "only real things").

 

As to the last thing about Valkyrie, yes, Valkyrie was, literally, a man in a woman's body. I don't recall why, it was some sort of transformation. It just happened to be the character's background. At least during the run I read, s/he didn't express any strong desires to return to "normal," but it came up every so often matter-of-factly (inasmuch as a traditional 4-color comic does ANYTHING matter-of-factly!).

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes' date=' I can blame them. You wanna come in late on a huge thread, then take the time to read it. Besides, if the thread is as bad as your last statement snootily implies, why are you or some newcomers commenting on and/or reading it in the first place?[/quote']

Because there are actual serious discussions taking place on here and creating a second thread on the same, interesting, subject matter would be pointless. I really don't see why there is a need to shove someone away from a thread that they might have valid points because they don't have the time or the interest to read over a thousand posts.

[odinraven]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

 

This thread annoys me. Why are you people even talking about how REALISTIC comic book fights are?? Heros, on a regular basis fight villians that they should have no chance whatsoever to beat. Thats the point. When one hero wins over another its a plot device or dramatic climax or other literary thing. A fight is good if it is entertaining. I find it heroic that spidey beat firelord, and i find it hilarious that logan beat lobo. Apriciate the writing for what it is and if you want to point out something that's "bad" focus on whether the actual writing was bad or art or plot. not whether it's "realistic". This is comic books, there is no such thing as realism or even suspension of disbelief. If you are offended because one dude was beat by someone who was way less powerful you should stop reading comic books, manga, or any other fantasy literature, because that is the basic premise of 90% of it. YOU ALL SUCK. GO WHINE SOMEWHERE ELSE!

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Quoth the raven, "YOU ALL SUCK. GO WHINE SOMEWHERE ELSE!"

 

I dunno, it kinda loses something when you put it together like that...

 

(Odinraven, you can't really blame me, eh?)

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Now a true discussion would be which of the trio + one in Knights of the Dinner table would win a Hackmaster free for all thrown into some sort of staged contest.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

\

 

I don't know if I read that one, GOOD POINT

 

Um, thanks. Sorry everyone for the late response, I had stopped coming by this thread because no one could get a word in edgewise about any other fights besides how strong Spidey is vs how much of a chump Firelord is. And wow, did you guys ever post quickly...

 

I don't think so. Brains don't go mush in super hard skulls in mainstream comics.

 

Sorry, my point was that the fight was ridiculous because they stretched the bounds of reality too far, just as they did in the Firelord/Spidey fight. A little bit of bad writing to allow both Spidey and Wolvey to come out lookin' kool.

 

Of course there's one other alternative - Wolverine's reflexes could be faster than Spiderman's spider sense.

 

I'm not of the school that thinks that way, and from what I remember in the book it seemed more like 'Spidey was distracted by his rage' and Wolverine somehow 'kept his cool' and snuck the fist up under Pete's chin. But regardless, it was good to see Spidey throw Wolvey out the window in the Avengers.

 

No' date=' I meant good point that Wolverine should have been incapable of much after a pounding by spidey, and certainly not the trick he pulled.[/quote']

 

Totally agreed there. My feeling was that it made Spidey look more like a chump than it made Wolverine look cool.

 

So having Spidey work the speed bag on Logan's forehead? No way Logan should have just shaken that off. Granted' date=' Spidey ain't the ever-lovin' blue-eyed Thing, but Logan should at least have been seeing *some* stars, not factory fresh and able not just to continue fighting, but execute subtle feints that somehow magically evade the #!%!@%@# Spider-Sense even.[/quote']

 

Yes, thank you.

 

Absolutely. Logan's able to take a heck of a lot. He's a wolverine - he's small' date=' but DAMN tough and vicious. While his powers have changed a lot since his first appearance, that concept hasn't. A super-strength hit to the head is something he'll notice. A series of super-fast, super-strong hits? Well, I can see him being conscious after that, but that's about all.[/quote']

 

I would have even been ok with Logan concedeing, "Ok, peter, enough, we're all on the same side here..." - you know, still maintain that Wolverine is ridiculously tough, but allowing for him to have been 'beaten' by Spidey.

 

And I'm a big-time Wolverine fan.

 

I used to be until they made him super buff and gave him claws made of bone... ew.

 

None of which he got to use with Spider-Man. Spidey got robbed.

 

Oh yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

It depends on Wolverine's state of mind. There have been times when he's gone down somewhat easy and then there are times when he's taken a shot from Apocolypse and continued on. It all has to do with how pissed off he is' date=' kind of like how The Hulk gets stronger Wolverine literally gets tougher. My GM had a way to implement the power too that was pretty cool, but its not a new thing. Wolvie has always been like that.[/quote']

 

I always try to remind people that Wolverine was created as an opponent for the Hulk.

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OMGWTFLOLOL!!! Wovlerin adn SpiderDork are teh superheros' date=' like Super thankx 4 asking LOLOLOL GAY!!!!1[/quote']

 

The fact that some of you know what this means is....

 

...disappointing.

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Because there are actual serious discussions taking place on here and creating a second thread on the same' date=' interesting, subject matter would be pointless. I really don't see why there is a need to shove someone away from a thread that they might have valid points because they don't have the time or the interest to read over a thousand posts.[/quote']

 

Thread derail is as common as any other silly thing on these boards. The simple fact is 'derailment' doesn't stop folks from talking about the original subject - lack of interest does. This thread, sans derailment, and like a million other threads, would have probably lasted 80 posts on its own. Are you seriously telling me that this thread now is more about worst fights or Spidey v Firelord? It just happens, man, roll with it or make a new thread (and see how many new posts it gets).

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

 

This thread annoys me. Why are you people even talking about how REALISTIC comic book fights are?? Heros, on a regular basis fight villians that they should have no chance whatsoever to beat. Thats the point. When one hero wins over another its a plot device or dramatic climax or other literary thing. A fight is good if it is entertaining. I find it heroic that spidey beat firelord, and i find it hilarious that logan beat lobo. Apriciate the writing for what it is and if you want to point out something that's "bad" focus on whether the actual writing was bad or art or plot. not whether it's "realistic". This is comic books, there is no such thing as realism or even suspension of disbelief. If you are offended because one dude was beat by someone who was way less powerful you should stop reading comic books, manga, or any other fantasy literature, because that is the basic premise of 90% of it. YOU ALL SUCK. GO WHINE SOMEWHERE ELSE!

 

Uhhh, yeah, well, this statement certainly proves that you're a paragon reason and understanding, yep.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I always try to remind people that Wolverine was created as an opponent for the Hulk.

 

Errr, well, actually, he was created as a one-issue-only disposable mook for the Hulk.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As to the last thing about Valkyrie' date=' yes, Valkyrie was, literally, a man in a woman's body. I don't recall why, it was some sort of transformation. It just happened to be the character's background. At least during the run I read, s/he didn't express any strong desires to return to "normal," but it came up every so often matter-of-factly (inasmuch as a traditional 4-color comic does ANYTHING matter-of-factly!).[/quote']

 

???In the '70's Defenders, Valkyrie was Barbara Norris (female madwoman) possessed by the spirit of a Valkyrie (Brunnhilde). There was an extended subplot involving Barbara's husband. Ultimately, her mortal body was killed, and the Valkyrie became more of a Thor character, an Asgardian who travelled on Midgard.

 

I don't ever recall this "man in a woman's body" issue. Can you give me some references on that?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Errr' date=' well, actually, he was created as a one-issue-only disposable mook for the Hulk. [/quote']

 

I seem to recall interviews with the creator that indicate the potential of an international X-Men team had been discussed for some time prior to Wolverine's creation. The concept was to have a ikely not great-selling book which featured characters from other countries so Marvel readers outside the US could have a recurring character. Wolverine was created with this reformed X-Men in mind, on the theory that Canada should definitely be represented on such a team.

 

Now that author also envisioned a short, scrappy guy who was resilient enough and fast-healing enough to come back from whatever the Hulk threw at him, and had gloves with metal claws in them to enhance his damage-dealing capacity. The admanatium bones and real claws came along later, bones in the Proteus arc X-Men 125-128; claws from the hands in the Helfire Club arc from #129-#134 - I think he popped the claws without his costume in about #130 or #131.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I seem to recall interviews with the creator that indicate the potential of an international X-Men team had been discussed for some time prior to Wolverine's creation. The concept was to have a ikely not great-selling book which featured characters from other countries so Marvel readers outside the US could have a recurring character. Wolverine was created with this reformed X-Men in mind, on the theory that Canada should definitely be represented on such a team.

 

Now that author also envisioned a short, scrappy guy who was resilient enough and fast-healing enough to come back from whatever the Hulk threw at him, and had gloves with metal claws in them to enhance his damage-dealing capacity. The admanatium bones and real claws came along later, bones in the Proteus arc X-Men 125-128; claws from the hands in the Helfire Club arc from #129-#134 - I think he popped the claws without his costume in about #130 or #131.

I recall it as being along about issue #99, when they were held captive on a space station by the Sentinels.

 

(Paraphrasing) Banshee: "Your claws! We thought they were part of your costume!

 

Wolverine: "They ain't -- wanna make something out of it?"

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

See, that's where I differentiate between physical and magical MANIFESTATION as opposed to SOURCE.

 

McCoy and I were just offlining about this, I'm just going to snip what I just sent a moment ago. This is along the lines of how I generally do things, and I THINK more or less what Busiek is talking about (PS - Busiek cites DC vampires as being different in their orientation than I list below, I'm sure just having read it reminded me of vampires, but, anyway, it's not to be confused with his specific discussionon DC vampires and their pecularities):

It sounds like you're defining a "magic attack" as something magical that specifically bypasses normal defenses and toughness. Which of course, by definition, would bypass the Hulk's and Superman's toughness. However I don't think that's the common assumption in this debate. Thor doesn't have anything that meets that criteria, yet Busiek intimated and Chuckg outright stated that Thor's magic lightning would lay a whupping on Supes. For instance, if Thor's hammer had an Enchantment of Butt Whupping on it to do more damage, I wouldn't expect it to "bypass normal defenses" - it would just hit harder.

 

And that's the case that I'm trying to resolve. If Mjolnir had an Enchantment of Butt Whupping, how would it affect Superman? Chuckg represents a great number of fans who believe that Superman would react more like a normal guy. Which is to say, he'd turn into strawberry jelly. Busiek's comments about Superman not being "vulnerable to magic" - he's just not "invulnerable" to it - suggests that Supes would take an enchanted hammer hit like the Hulk. Which is to say, he'd get bruised and bloody but the fight would continue.

 

It's got to be one or the other (assuming there's any knd of editorial agreement, of course).

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Well, it wouldn't bypass *all* normal defenses, merely *Superman's* normal defenses. Supes having that magic vulnerability and all.

 

The relevant part isn't on Thor's character sheet, it's on Big Blue's. I.e. -- Thor doesn't have an NND, Supes has a "Not vs. Etc" limitation on his PD and ED.

[gewing]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I forgot that one of wolvies first appearances was versus Hulk, and he fought Wendigo...

 

Hmmm

 

 

 

 

Um, thanks. Sorry everyone for the late response, I had stopped coming by this thread because no one could get a word in edgewise about any other fights besides how strong Spidey is vs how much of a chump Firelord is. And wow, did you guys ever post quickly...

 

 

 

Sorry, my point was that the fight was ridiculous because they stretched the bounds of reality too far, just as they did in the Firelord/Spidey fight. A little bit of bad writing to allow both Spidey and Wolvey to come out lookin' kool.

 

 

 

I'm not of the school that thinks that way, and from what I remember in the book it seemed more like 'Spidey was distracted by his rage' and Wolverine somehow 'kept his cool' and snuck the fist up under Pete's chin. But regardless, it was good to see Spidey throw Wolvey out the window in the Avengers.

 

 

 

Totally agreed there. My feeling was that it made Spidey look more like a chump than it made Wolverine look cool.

 

 

 

Yes, thank you.

 

 

 

I would have even been ok with Logan concedeing, "Ok, peter, enough, we're all on the same side here..." - you know, still maintain that Wolverine is ridiculously tough, but allowing for him to have been 'beaten' by Spidey.

 

 

 

I used to be until they made him super buff and gave him claws made of bone... ew.

 

 

 

Oh yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

 

 

I always try to remind people that Wolverine was created as an opponent for the Hulk.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The fact that some of you know what this means is....

 

...disappointing.

u r teh b00b liek a n00b OH SNAP!!!11

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Well, it wouldn't bypass *all* normal defenses, merely *Superman's* normal defenses. Supes having that magic vulnerability and all.

 

The relevant part isn't on Thor's character sheet, it's on Big Blue's. I.e. -- Thor doesn't have an NND, Supes has a "Not vs. Etc" limitation on his PD and ED.

Exactly (which is why I didn't move this to the Mjolnir thread). All I'm trying to figure out is, how much PD, ED, etc. does Superman have that isn't "Not v.s. Magic?" That seems to be where people disagree.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It's not portrayed consistently.

 

The best fudge I can come up with is 'the more purely magical something is, the more it hurts Superman'. But it's still not portrayed consistently.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Errr' date=' well, actually, he was created as a one-issue-only disposable mook for the Hulk. [/quote']

Yeah, and in that light you can't consider the original concept to have any bearing on what happened after.

 

But I'm not weighing in on Wolverine vs. Spiderman. I might ask a question here or there or propose a possibility, but just as speculative/curiousity.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

???In the '70's Defenders, Valkyrie was Barbara Norris (female madwoman) possessed by the spirit of a Valkyrie (Brunnhilde). There was an extended subplot involving Barbara's husband. Ultimately, her mortal body was killed, and the Valkyrie became more of a Thor character, an Asgardian who travelled on Midgard.

 

I don't ever recall this "man in a woman's body" issue. Can you give me some references on that?

I can't, since I don't have any issues, but all I can say is some other comic book people do "know" this. When I was talking to a friend who's a comic book artist (just got his first real pro job, too, btw!), he knew this.

 

But I think it's merged with what you said. I think her husband took the body or something.

 

Or, as another possibility, there are some of us who got the story wrong when we were kids and never learned the right way - could be. In fact, as I keep looking now on the net and not finding anything, I guess somehow a few of us just labor under a misunderstanding. Though I ran across a great idea that Kristen Johnston should play Valkyrie if she's ever in a movie.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It sounds like you're defining a "magic attack" as something magical that specifically bypasses normal defenses and toughness. Which of course' date=' by definition, would bypass the Hulk's and Superman's toughness. However I don't think that's the common assumption in this debate. Thor doesn't have [i']anything[/i] that meets that criteria, yet Busiek intimated and Chuckg outright stated that Thor's magic lightning would lay a whupping on Supes. For instance, if Thor's hammer had an Enchantment of Butt Whupping on it to do more damage, I wouldn't expect it to "bypass normal defenses" - it would just hit harder.

 

And that's the case that I'm trying to resolve. If Mjolnir had an Enchantment of Butt Whupping, how would it affect Superman? Chuckg represents a great number of fans who believe that Superman would react more like a normal guy. Which is to say, he'd turn into strawberry jelly. Busiek's comments about Superman not being "vulnerable to magic" - he's just not "invulnerable" to it - suggests that Supes would take an enchanted hammer hit like the Hulk. Which is to say, he'd get bruised and bloody but the fight would continue.

 

It's got to be one or the other (assuming there's any knd of editorial agreement, of course).

I see ChuckG's comments, I think we part company perhaps here in interpreting Busiek's comments. Thor's magical lightning bypasses normal defenses, I believe Busiek's saying and that is also what I say. Or, to put it another way, where ChuckG says Superman has PD "not versus magic", I think the point is that all but magical characters have all or most of their PD "not versus magic". Including Hulk.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Well, it wouldn't bypass *all* normal defenses, merely *Superman's* normal defenses. Supes having that magic vulnerability and all.

 

The relevant part isn't on Thor's character sheet, it's on Big Blue's. I.e. -- Thor doesn't have an NND, Supes has a "Not vs. Etc" limitation on his PD and ED.

But to be clear on one point - Busiek mentions that Superman is like a NORMAL person in this regard in having PD not versus magic. He (Busiek) states quite clearly, at the least, that Superman has no special vulnerability, just a normal person's vulnerability.

 

Now, whether that is true of the "typical" super and Hulk is of course entirely another matter in terms of trying to put any words into Busiek's mouth, and I will tread lightly here and simply say I believe he SUGGESTS that this "normal" attribute would be true of most supers. I don't recall and don't feel like going back to see how he feels Hulk stacks up and whether Hulk is more or less vulnerable to magic than Superman. But even if Hulk is less vulnerable, that simply means that Hulk is probably not like most supers, even, given Superman's "vulnerability" is just a "normal person's" and there's no indication on Busiek's part this is unusual among supers, either. He tries to paint the picture that there's nothing special about Superman versus magic.

 

Now, it does raise an issue why Thor doesn't use magic blast as a default except where he knows someone is magically tough.

 

But it also raises an issue as to why would Busiek dismiss Superman's inability to resist magic as not being an unusual weakness EXCEPT as compared to his other abilities. This suggests that there's probably a minimal level of magical resistance for all beings, and Superman is simply at that ho-hum minimal level.

 

In turn, this means that either all supers are usually tougher in magical resistance than the normal person because they're simply "tough in general" and Superman happens to lack this (could be) or it would be unusual for a super to have special magical resistance.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

But to be clear on one point - Busiek mentions that Superman is like a NORMAL person in this regard in having PD not versus magic. He (Busiek) states quite clearly' date=' at the least, that Superman has no special vulnerability, just a normal person's vulnerability.[/quote']

 

I think what he meant was 'since most of Supes' PD is bought 'not vs. magic and stuff', Supes' total PD vs. magic is down around the normal human level of PD'.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I recall it as being along about issue #99, when they were held captive on a space station by the Sentinels.

 

(Paraphrasing) Banshee: "Your claws! We thought they were part of your costume!

 

Wolverine: "They ain't -- wanna make something out of it?"

 

No, I think you've got it way too early. I'm dead certain he first pops the claws with no costume in the Hellfire Club arc.