What does a SuperTeam need?

[OddHat]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

All groups need a cute one, a tough one, a sexy one, a smart one, and one who can actually sing.

 

 

But seriously, I have never considered a mentalist or a mystic as essential. I suppose if it were a cosmic level campaign it might be necessary, but a street level would most likely be overkill. My favorite groups (like the FF) didn't have these, and the functioned very well, thank you. Even the speedster (a more beloved archetype in my eyes) isn't necessary, though there is usually someone who operates faster than the others. Frex, the Human Torch is the fast guy in the FF, but he's no speedster.

 

Reed can whip up gadgets to handle mentalist issues, and the team has on and off over the years found consultant mystics to handle what little he can't. All of which, like your Human Torch example, points to the idea that one character type can often play multiple story roles.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Reed can whip up gadgets to handle mentalist issues' date=' and the team has on and off over the years found consultant mystics to handle what little he can't. All of which, like your Human Torch example, points to the idea that one character type can often play multiple story roles.[/quote']

Indeed, as I was writing this I thought about the number of times that they have consulted Dr. Strange or their evil creepy babysitter from the pits of hell. So, they have the resources when necessary, but that's part of the fun. They find challenges that they need to think about.

 

Honestly, I dislike mentalists and mystics as PCs. I think that those power sets generally fall under the 'plot device' description (along with some gadgeteers) and I have yet to see a write-up that I've been fond of. I love reading Dr. Strange, but even the Dr. Strange fanatic I used to play with couldn't make a decent conversion that we were all happy with.

 

YMMV

[OddHat]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Indeed, as I was writing this I thought about the number of times that they have consulted Dr. Strange or their evil creepy babysitter from the pits of hell. So, they have the resources when necessary, but that's part of the fun. They find challenges that they need to think about.

 

Honestly, I dislike mentalists and mystics as PCs. I think that those power sets generally fall under the 'plot device' description (along with some gadgeteers) and I have yet to see a write-up that I've been fond of. I love reading Dr. Strange, but even the Dr. Strange fanatic I used to play with couldn't make a decent conversion that we were all happy with.

 

YMMV

 

Understood. For my part, I've run very good games with mentalist and mystic PCs, but then the campaigns were designed for those character types from the start. Dropping them in adventures designed for more direct heroes can screw up a story fast, even with good players.

[assault]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Reed can whip up gadgets to handle mentalist issues' date=' and the team has on and off over the years found consultant mystics [/quote']

 

"Consultant mystics" is a whole other thing than mentalist PCs. "Found" further shifts the meaning. These are useful contacts made while roleplaying, not stuff that is wargamed.

 

Reed, of course, has competing priorities for which gadgets he whips up.

 

Incidentally, who was the Avengers' mentalist? Thor???

[OddHat]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

"Consultant mystics" is a whole other thing than mentalist PCs. "Found" further shifts the meaning. These are useful contacts made while roleplaying' date=' not stuff that is wargamed.[/quote']

 

My own fact-to-face groups have rarely contained wargamers, and so that hasn't been an issue. The mentalists I have GMed for worked well in their respective campaigns, but again the adventures were designed with mentalists in mind.

 

Incidentally, who was the Avengers' mentalist? Thor???

 

Mostly they relied on their many gadgeteers or characters with unusual power sets to handle adventures that another group would have solved with a mentalist. No single archetype is essential.

[OddHat]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Checking Avengers pages (because I'm bored) it looks like Dr. Druid and Moondragon were both telepaths. I recall Eros / Starfox having some mental powers as well, but can't find his write up online.

 

Even so, the Avengers have never needed a mentalist any more than the Fantastic Four.

[Karma]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

This is a wargamer-ism.

For future reference I consider that a personal insult.

The fact is that a group can't cover all contingencies - and shouldn't try.

Never said they should (note the lack of 'must cover all contingencies including speedsters, duplicators, mystics, gageters and anyone with a VPP equivelent powers' in my post). However, even from a non-metagaming POV most superteams who are aware of mentalists/psionics/telepaths/whatever name is given to 'those who can read and contol minds' are going to try to find a way of avoiding falling victim to them (how sucessful they are is up to the GM/writer as you point out even those with 'psionic invulnerability' can fall victim to 'pheromone control'). Few powers are more feared and invasive than those that can 'read and control minds' and even in a world where 'powered humans' are accepted most people will be weary of those who can read and control minds.

 

All of this means that while it's fine to have a mentalist in the team, it is not required. Of course, the team will then be vulnerable to enemy mentalists, but that's just part of the business.

 

True, but after (or even before) being hosed by mentalist who invade your mind and get you to kill, or at least beat up your friends (if they're feeling nice) most teams/characters are going to look for ways to make sure it doesn't happen again. After his encounter with the Puppetmaster Ben Grim became insistent about Reed finding a way to stop him taking over Ben again.

 

Now it's true that you can make a team with no mentalist/mental defence and realise you'll get hosed by mentalists. But any charater who becomes a mentalist's victim and does not at least try to find a way of stopping it from happening again isn't well played/written (there's a very good reason why Menton's victims in the USPD needed extenisve psychological counselling)

[assault]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Checking Avengers pages (because I'm bored) it looks like Dr. Druid and Moondragon were both telepaths. I recall Eros / Starfox having some mental powers as well, but can't find his write up online.

 

Even so, the Avengers have never needed a mentalist any more than the Fantastic Four.

 

My point was that most of the time they haven't had a mentalist.

 

...

 

Starfox had an emotion control effect, rather than "full" mental powers, IIRC, but I could be quite wrong.

 

I suppose that the Scarlet Witch's powers could interact with mental powers, at least to the degree of causing mind controls and similar effects to snafu. She was probably the closest thing they had in the very early days.

 

Thor, presumably, would be pretty tough for mentalists to deal with.

[Basil]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

The government contact. Better yet, two: one is the team's official contact with whatever branch of the govt. is supposed to handle Supers, and the other is unofficial (probably a particular member's contact/associate) who works for one of the "spook" agencies.

[assault]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

True' date=' but after (or even before) being hosed by mentalist who invade your mind and get you to kill, or at least beat up your friends (if they're feeling nice) most teams/characters are going to look for ways to make sure it doesn't happen again. After his encounter with the Puppetmaster Ben Grim became insistent about Reed finding a way to stop him taking over Ben again.[/quote']

 

That should read: "and get you to try to kill, or at least beat up your friends...".

 

There's no real difference between the two, of course, from the characters' viewpoint.

 

Looking for a way to stop it happening again and finding one is another matter, of course. In any case, this is an exercise in roleplaying during the campaign, not a requirement to be met before the game.

 

So it's not something "a SuperTeam needs".

[OddHat]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

My point was that most of the time they haven't had a mentalist.

 

Yes, and I got that. As I posted, I was bored. Might as well look up Avengers Mentalists.

 

Weird to see what a raw deal Dr. Droom / Dr. Druid ended up with. He started out as the model for Stephen Strange; Droom came out in 1961, had almost exactly the origin that would end up being re-used for Strange (except that Droom was a nice guy from the start), and the same power set. Then Strange ends up as Sorcerer Supreme and Druid ends up as the psychic puppet of a string of loonies before getting killed. Magic is not fair.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

To be fair, when Dr. Druid learned that he was indeed the point man for the Sorcerer Supreme, he wasn't at all upset. He was pleased to be of service to The Ancient One in such a role.

[OddHat]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

To be fair' date=' when Dr. Druid learned that he was indeed the point man for the Sorcerer Supreme, he wasn't at all upset. He was pleased to be of service to The Ancient One in such a role.[/quote']

 

So Droom pretended he was happy to train some youngster who got promoted over him? I bet he was whinging about it to his drinking buddies for years.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

In the Avengers Spotlight reboot of Dr Druid, probably around 1990, The Ancient One revealed to him that this was exactly what had happened: he (the Ancient One) was practicing for Dr. Strange. For a moment, Dr. Druid was pretty upset, but when he realized his unique contribution to the process of bringing about a new Sorcerer Supreme, he was clearly pleased. While this may not have been the most luminous chapter of Marvel canon, I believe it's still in continuity. As far as his drinkin' buddies, your guess is as good as mine!

[Powerhouse]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

First off, someone needs to tell me how to rep; Hermit's post is pretty much the end-all, be-all for this thread.

 

Second, while I do understand that you want the team to be like the Avengers or JLA, as the GM you're more going to be stuck with what the players want to create as opposes to giving them roles to fill. That doesn't mean that you can't nudge them in certain directions of course as their lack of skills or powers cause them to get into trouble. A classic idea is to whip them with villains who use coordinated tactics to force them to adopt teamwork. Also, as they deal more and more with the public, it's natural that one or two of the players will (through RP), start to become spokemen(or spokeswomen) which can lead to leadership roles being fulfilled.

 

I'd like to show off my own initial team of the Silver Knights for various roles, while noting of course that things are missing, still in flux, and FAR from perfect:

 

 

1. Lady Silver: she fills a number of important roles, as follows:

A. Team Leader: although Sentinel is the tactical leader, she's the team's spokesperson, heart, and drive. She was the first to suggest that they stay as a team after this first meeting given how much good they could accomplish. She's also the one that everyone else goes to with problems.

B. Conscience: she's nicknamed "Mother Theresa" because she's always the one pushing the team to follow the moral path, no killing, etc. In fact, she fills the paragon role ala Superman in exemplifying virtue and what we can all seek. On a sidenote, it's also fun to poke at her when she gets hypocritical to show that even the "best" can have flaws.

C. Team Mystic: she provides the needed hooks for mystical adventures.

 

2. Sentinel: an Special Forces soldier assigned to the team, he is the following:

A. Team Leader: in combat, he's in charge and is the rationale to develop the team into a cohesive fighting machine.

B. Monitor: As the government liason, he filled a Henry Gyrich role in reigning in the team if they try to do something too stupid or illegal. Gods in power though the team members may be, they are still human and must follow the law unless they think their powers alone give some type of moral superiority. Through this role, he also provides interesting conflict between the independent nature of superheroes and the rigid laws of the government.

C. Link to humanity: similar to part B but worth mentioning. As the only non-powered Knight, he is important touchstone for the team to the rest of humanity who, in seeking to protect, they must not place themselves above. Also, he shows that heroism comes from courage, not power bolts or superstrength. He's also a reminder that without at least some nominal controls by man (through their representative government) that humanity might fear the superhuman

D. International connections: as someone who has fought his way across half the world, he has valuable contacts and storyhooks for stories outside of the country.

E. The cynic: just as Lady Silver if the naive one who thinks the world can be better, the more experienced Sentinel provides a more practical view which allows for discussion and exploration of various topics.

 

3. Nova: the last of her people, her arrival on Earth was on of the events that led to formation of the team. Various roles:

A. Team Conscience, sorta: as an alien, she can ask questions that we take for granted and never think of but perhaps should: why allow violent criminals to live? How can a world let most of its people live in abject poverty? Why can you not see past your petty differences to be truly united?

B. Keeps the team together: one of the reasons why the team was formed was as an alternative to keeping Nova out of government internment. As long as they keep her under control. Also, since she has no one else, the team becomes in many ways an impromptu family.

C. Wolverine Redux: although most of they team have at least a reluctance to kill, Nova is an angry young alien who wants to kill those who hurt innocents. It can lead to the debate of whether you *should* kill at times or is life so precious that it must be defended even when distasteful.

D. Reader identification: in some ways, Nova is more human than most of the characters: young, scared, and trying to find her way in a bewildering world, ie the sterotypical teenager.

 

4. Tyr: Norse god of law, justice, and truth. From him we get:

A. Power. Just as Thor or Superman give their teams instant respect, so does Tyr who is easily the team's strongest member

B. Topic Starter: what is justice and what is law? How does one know? And what happens when the two are not the same?

C. Mythic Hooks: basically, he can be used to link to any godly pantheon as needed for storyline purposes.

D. History: as the only Knight who was a member of the last generation's supers, he can provides a way to convey what has gone on before. Also, a good hook for old villains seeking revenge.

E. Godhood: the other side of the superhuman, he who would place himself above man because of his power. Of course, Tyr IS a god which can be a reminder between gods and mortals who would presume to be deities.

 

5. StarKnight: as a the resident GL homage, we get:

A. Going Cosmic! Whenever the team needs to go into space or gets visited by a spacegod, she takes the lead. Also, a link to the universe beyond the tiny sphere that is Earth.

B. Comic Relief: while a powerful superhero, she enjoys her powers and can be a foil to the more serious Knights. One of her favorite tactics is to taunt her enemies ala Spiderman

C. Reader Identification: like most of us, Ameiko lives a quiet life that we want to be more exciting. Also, she wishes that she could be confident and dynamic. Now she is! How she balances these two halves of her lives is part of her story.

D. Power: like Tyr, her presence gives the team credibility that they can handle the "big" threats.

E. Science: top notch physicist. She helps to give exposistion for scientific (or psuedo-scientific) plot points or tactics

 

6. Titan: an Iron Man clone in some ways but he is also the prince of an African nation as well. He provides:

A. Resources: as both a prince of a powerful African nation and one who has helped launch a tech company, he brings to the Knights his Filthy Rich Perk.

B. Tech: an incredible engineer and inventor, he can either provide the team with equipment needed for the story or be scientific exposistion.

C. International Perspective: as a well educated man from outside of America, he can bring his own views which can lead to interesting discussions or plotlines.

D. Nobility: like Lady Silver, he is the paladin who helps drive the team to not just to protect the world but make it better. Also, an example of a man blessed who sees this blessing not as a vindication of himself but instead a calling to serve others less fortunate.

 

7. Speed Demon: the first non-founder, he's a C level actor who gains powers around the time that the Knights forms and joins the team. I like him on the team because:

A. Cool speedster tricks.

B. Question of heroic motivation: he's not a hero, at least not at first. He's a loser who got lucky and now wants to get everything he wants through his powers: money, fame, and women. He's represents the selfish side that we all have but also a realistic one: how do these powers help ME? Why should I be a hero and take all these risks for a public that would turn on me if I screwed up? Can anyone find it within himself to be a hero?

 

Whew... long-winded! I hope that I didn't chase too many people away. Good gaming!

[OddHat]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

In the Avengers Spotlight reboot of Dr Druid' date=' probably around 1990, The Ancient One revealed to him that this was exactly what had happened: he (the Ancient One) was practicing for Dr. Strange. For a moment, Dr. Druid was pretty upset, but when he realized his unique contribution to the process of bringing about a new Sorcerer Supreme, he was clearly pleased. While this may not have been the most luminous chapter of Marvel canon, I believe it's still in continuity. As far as his drinkin' buddies, your guess is as good as mine![/quote']

 

Your comic fu is mighty; I missed that story.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Your comic fu is mighty;

Thank you! I'm a friggin expert on Marvel comics between about 1988 and 1992. Small claim to fame.

I missed that story.

Hehe, you and everybody else! The book was cancelled after that issue, I think.

Avengers Spotlight was 37 issues of really kind of boring Hawkeye solo stories, followed by a reboot of Tigra (trying to save her from the nonsense Byrne put her through in WCA), The Vision (giving him a fighting chance against The Byrne with a "secret Identity" hologram and the personality tapes of some old dude), and Dr. Druid (who I don't think Byrne butchered, but I wouldn't bet against it).

And that was it. It was the lowest-circulated Marvel title for ages. I think the Steeltown Rockers mini beat it out for 1989, and that was only four issues. Camp Candy outsold it. It was putrid. But because of its low readership, it turned out to be the perfect place to do a little John Byrne damage control.

(Speaking of which, I think the 1989 Damage Control limited series beat it out too.)

[Powerhouse]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Some more comments about what a team needs:

 

1. A purpose: WHY are we a team? Promote an ideal? Protect the city? Hunt down badguys? Make the world a better place? Teams can have multiple goals but it's best when you can state the team's purpose in a sentence ala:

A. The Avengers and JLA: to protect the world from threats that no single hero can stand against.

B. The X-men: to build a world where humans and mutants can live together without prejudice.

C. The Fantastic Four: to better mankind through science (and often bashing idiot badguys who try to invade)

D. The Outsiders: to bring justice when the law can not.

 

2. A base: it serves purposes both practical (training, labs, sleeping) and symbolic (a publicly known place to show unity with the common man or good relationships with the law? Or a secret site because the team is hunted, unknown, or outsiders who seek sancutary from the normals and instead solace with those who understand them?)

 

3. Transport: it's hard to be globe-trotting supers without either a really fast plane or teleporter.

 

4. Spice: this you have to rely on the heroes themselves. Interal conflict when handled maturely is a great addition:

A. Killing vs Non-killing

B. Protect Innocents vs Stopping the Criminals

C. Law vs Justice

D. Leader vs Rebel

 

5. Spice II: how the team gets along:

A. Love Triangles or Unrequitted feelings

B. The team being a family

C. The really great friends on the team (Booster and Beetle, Beast and Wonderman), etc...

D. The loner and the person who reaches out to him or her.

[Hermit]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Good stuff on this thread.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

In aid of another gedanken, I made up a list of those who are well-known Avengers or JLAers from the the recent past. I then ranked them as "tier 1" or "tier 2" (very rough gauge, I know) kind of off-the-cuff. I won't re-list the names I picked nor their rankings in my mind. Your mileage would vary, and I'm not posting here to start an argument on this sub-topic! I then went back, and looked at each character in terms of power level, versatility, uniquenes of powers, attitude, and experience.

 

Strangely, I found that while power level contributed to being "tier 1" in my mind, the main determinent was experience. That is, experience > raw power level. That may be why we're more likely to accept Green Arrow as a JLAer than we are the Ray, or more likely to accept Cap than Warbird, for instance. Also, power versatility- having a cool power not present in the rest of the team- was big.

 

I also noted that there are no big-gun JLAers or Avengers whose main power is mental; J'onn has telepathy and mind control abilities, but it's not his main focus. The Avengers are usually lacking in mentallists entirely (with the exception of Moondragon from time to time).

 

From this, I conclude that the mentallist class of character is not particularly critical to a superteam.

 

I further noted that the JLA and Avengers always, always have at least one and sometimes multiple members who are in essence highly-trained normal people or low-level supers without flashy powers. The JLA always has Batman, and sometimes adds others, such as Huntress, Black Canary and Green Arrow. The Avengers usually have Captain America, and recently have also had Triathlon and Hawkeye as regular members (all three at the same time). So raw power level does not seem to be a defining factor in who gets in and who is out.

 

Finally, each team does always have at least 2-3 energy blasters. Among the JLA, almost every one of them has a decent distance attack (with the exception of Flash, Plastic Man and Batman) or other ways of affecting opponents at a distance. Among the Avengers, each of them (except Quicksilver, if you could him) has a good distance attack, and Firestar is almost entirely offense.

[OddHat]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Well, Doctor Strange, Doctor Fate, and Zatanna can all pinch hit as mentalists.

 

But yes, the only major team that always has a primary Telepath hanging around is the X-Men. Purely mental powers with no physical back up aren't that popular for Comic Book Heroes (though they are an excellent choice for a villain).

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

But yes' date=' the only major team that always has a primary Telepath hanging around is the X-Men. Purely mental powers with no physical back up aren't that popular for Comic Book Heroes (though they are an excellent choice for a villain).[/quote']

And the LoSH, whose concept is basically to have every conceivable archetype in their employ, and then a few.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Yes, I specifically left ouff the X-Men and Titans as major teams, since I don't think that they are designed to work that way within their respective universes. I am also not maligning the archetype for heroes or villains, it's perfectly valid and can be at times more powerful that the biggest, baddest brick on the block. I was only noting that the big gun teams usually do without.

 

 

And I need to spread some rep around before giving it to OddHat again.

[OddHat]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

And the LoSH' date=' whose concept is basically to have every conceivable archetype in their employ, and then a few.[/quote']

 

Yup, can't believe I forgot the Legion.

[OddHat]

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

 

Yes' date=' I specifically left ouff the X-Men and Titans as major teams, since I don't think that they are designed to work that way within their respective universes. I am also not maligning the archetype for heroes or villains, it's perfectly valid and can be at times more powerful that the biggest, baddest brick on the block. I was only noting that the big gun teams usually do without.[/quote']

 

LoSH is the major team of their time, but your point is valid.

 

Oddly, Wonder Woman has also been a Telepath on and off. I was reading some Golden Age WW issues to put together a write up, and she pulled telepathic tricks even without the lasso. Later writers have used it a lot less.