Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

[TheQuestionMan]

Something I would like to ask the "Pro's from Dover"

 

Blocking a Tsunami with a Force Wall 24rDEF (Physical), Width (Mega Scaled?).

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40425

 

Is it possible to do this? (Assuming of course you have a Variable Power Pool that is large enough to create such a Force Wall.)

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Mushroom1972]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

Blocking a Tsunami with a Force Wall 24rDEF (Physical), Width (Mega Scaled?).

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40425

 

Is it possible to do this? (Assuming of course you have a Variable Power Pool that is large enough to create such a Force Wall.)

 

I would call it a Move Through, so, based on the Ultimate Brick (p. 88), the largest tsunami would do 12+40=52d6 damage. Probably slows it down impressively; very unlikely to stop it.

 

The smallest, on the other hand, would only do 6+27=33d6. Not a lot better odds, really...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

Not gonna argue the numbers you have there, but as far as I'm concerned, a 52d6 tidal wave is gonna crunch a 24 DEF FW without slowing down. The wave makes it's Move Through just like a normal human would through a closed door. If you roll twice the needed BODY to break it (or enough with half the dice, effectively using casual STR), it takes no time to break it and move through it.

 

Now, those tinier ones with only 33d6, might be effectively stopped by the FW. The wave will crash right through it, but will have lost enough force that you've just got some impressive surf afterwards.

[Phil]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

That's a bit of a shame really - stopping natural disasters is superhero staple. Do we really want the real world intruding with a 52d6 move through!!?!

 

To some extent I guess we do, but I'd certainly be inclined to scale down the strength of natural disasters and/or scale up the effects of PCs when working against them. Otherwise, rather than dig a channel to divert the lava, your PC is going to take 3 phases to punch a truck-sized hole that slows the flow down by exactly 0.1 seconds

[OddHat]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

That's a bit of a shame really - stopping natural disasters is superhero staple. Do we really want the real world intruding with a 52d6 move through!!?!

 

To some extent I guess we do, but I'd certainly be inclined to scale down the strength of natural disasters and/or scale up the effects of PCs when working against them. Otherwise, rather than dig a channel to divert the lava, your PC is going to take 3 phases to punch a truck-sized hole that slows the flow down by exactly 0.1 seconds

 

If you want a PC with the power to block a 52d6 Mega-Area attack, you can always allow PCs with 52 PD Mega-Area Force Walls.

 

This may make foiling bank robberies a little less exciting.

[Gary]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

33-52d6 is WAY too high. In real life, strong enough dikes and levies can stop them or slow them down significantly. Especially the smaller tsunamis. And real life dikes and levies don't have close to 33 Def.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

An alternative would be a Megascale AoE Body Drain against the water (water has 6 Body per hex according to TUB).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

I'm with Gary: a tsunami in never going to get to 33-52d6: it is a MUCH smaller constant attack: maybe 20 dice tops, but that might continue applying that damage every turn for several minutes as the wave passes - plenty damage to destroy the environment but just about within the abilty of moderately powerful heroes to cope with. The active points might be similar but the top damage is completely wrong. The fact that a tsunami might have the energy of many nuclear weapons doesn't mean it applies it in one hit.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

33-52d6 is WAY too high. In real life' date=' strong enough dikes and levies can stop them or slow them down significantly. Especially the smaller tsunamis. And real life dikes and levies don't have close to 33 Def.[/quote']

 

But real life dikes also have BODY, which a FW does not. The damage of the tsunami must get through the total of DEF+BODY, which is what gives the dikes the advantage. They'll have like an 8 DEF 20 BODY (per hex) and a +20 to 30 DEF Only Versus Waves.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

No the only thing that stops a Tsunami is high ground, I'd like to see these dykes and levies that can stop a Tsunami, I would guess what you guys are talking about simply divert high water away from sensitive areas, not actually stop a Tsunami. I mean lets think about this to stop a 60 foot wall of water you need like an 80 foot tall wall or it will just come over the top, plus that wall has to be many feet thick to stop the tons of water facing it (and a 60 foot Tsunami is just baby stuff).

 

This is an area where reality and genre don't meet, supers stop such things fairly frequently but reality natural forces are extrememly powerful, take a forest fire for example (something I am more familiar with than Tsunamis), we simply don't have the ability to stop one once it gets going, unless we remove the fuel for a mile or more in front of it (even then it is likely to just hop over and continue on its merry way). A Tsunami is not really any different, you might slow it or even divert it but you really can't stop it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

No the only thing that stops a Tsunami is high ground, I'd like to see these dykes and levies that can stop a Tsunami, I would guess what you guys are talking about simply divert high water away from sensitive areas, not actually stop a Tsunami. I mean lets think about this to stop a 60 foot wall of water you need like an 80 foot tall wall or it will just come over the top, plus that wall has to be many feet thick to stop the tons of water facing it (and a 60 foot Tsunami is just baby stuff).

 

This is an area where reality and genre don't meet, supers stop such things fairly frequently but reality natural forces are extrememly powerful, take a forest fire for example (something I am more familiar with than Tsunamis), we simply don't have the ability to stop one once it gets going, unless we remove the fuel for a mile or more in front of it (even then it is likely to just hop over and continue on its merry way). A Tsunami is not really any different, you might slow it or even divert it but you really can't stop it.

 

While I see your point, you might as well be spelling out the ramifications of flying men and the recoil of eye beams. There are a lot of ways reality doesn't match the genre, and the creation and destruction of energy is one of them.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

While I see your point' date=' you might as well be spelling out the ramifications of flying men and the recoil of eye beams. There are a lot of ways reality doesn't match the genre, and the creation and destruction of energy is one of them.[/quote']

 

Oh, I agree with that 100%, sorry that wasn't clear in my response.

 

I actually beleive strongly in having seperate stats and "rules" for different genres as "reality" actualy varies widely. In something like a Supers or Gamma World type game where radiation gives powers a detailed set of rules for radiation poisoning has little place in the game, on the other hand a gritty life in the nuclear wasteland game they might be perectly appropriate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

I have to second Toadmaster ... a levi or damn break isn't going stop a Tsunami. It may stop or divert squalls from hurricanes, but Tsunami no.

 

What causes a wave to break is the loss of it's trough as it approaches the shore, what makes tsunami so dangerous is the velocity and sheer mass just push it all over and deep inland.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

So could you use creatively shaped Force Walls to weaken the Tsunami to lessen the effects?

 

Thank you to eveyone. Please do not stop now.

 

QM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

So could you use creatively shaped Force Walls to weaken the Tsunami to lessen the effects?

 

Thank you to eveyone. Please do not stop now.

 

QM

 

I wouldn't get hung up too much on details and real world physics unless the game makes a big deal about those things in everything else.

 

Just figure out how much damage the tsunami would do, and a FW of X DEF will reduce its damage by it's DEF in DCs, and slow it down by a roughly equal percentage of damage lost. If the FW is less than half the DC of the tsunami, the tsunami just crashing through without slowing down.

[Gary]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

But real life dikes also have BODY' date=' which a FW does not. The damage of the tsunami must get through the total of DEF+BODY, which is what gives the dikes the advantage. They'll have like an 8 DEF 20 BODY (per hex) and a +20 to 30 DEF Only Versus Waves.[/quote']

 

 

The Body wouldn't hold out vs several minutes of waves. Also, if it were truly 33-52d6 per hex, it would instantly vaporize and crunch buildings. The fact that buildings and houses were standing at all (albeit highly damaged) in New Orleans, shows that it was lesser damage applied over a longer period of time.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

I wouldn't get hung up too much on details and real world physics unless the game makes a big deal about those things in everything else.

 

Just figure out how much damage the tsunami would do, and a FW of X DEF will reduce its damage by it's DEF in DCs, and slow it down by a roughly equal percentage of damage lost. If the FW is less than half the DC of the tsunami, the tsunami just crashing through without slowing down.

 

To nit-pick a bit, I'd say you should start off by deciding WHY you have a tsunami in the game. If you expect the PCs to stop or divert it then build the damage factor around their (top end) capabilities. How much damage a tsunami would actually do is virtually irrelevant If you want it to be impossible to stop, well, the actual stats become even more irrelevant.

 

I'd probably build it as a continuous double KB 10-18 dice normal attack (depending on character power levels) that does damage to any given hex over at least 5 turns. You could make it arour piercing -v- specific structures, like rigid towers and anything you want getting knocked down.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

I may be guilty of being a bad GM. My GM NPC "GUARDIAN II" used a "BLUE LUCK CHIT" to expand his FORCE WALL to MEGA SCALE and epended all his END, STUN, and BODY to stop the Tsunami hitting the Pacific Coast.

 

Fortunately Orion healed him, but the cost was high.

 

HOUSE RULES

"Blue Luck Chits" - It allows a power to be used in a way that fits the SFX, but they haven't paid points for. [Ex: Flame character... wants to reduce the fire in a room to save a child... but doesn't have this power. Spends a Blue for this one action, his EB (or whatever) becomes Suppress normal fires, and he can do it.]

 

 

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Lethosos]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

Hrmm... If a Tsunami is the result of a huge amount of energy traveling on top of a rising seabed... then I think a useable answer would be giving the water a different direction to go. Say... a suitable wide/deep channel in front of its path. Then find a way to "hold off" the water in that channel until the tsunami is nearby... then drop several hundred tons of water right into the deep channel. All that energy gets diverted south, and the only danger to the beach would be excessive sand loss.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

The Body wouldn't hold out vs several minutes of waves. Also' date=' if it were truly 33-52d6 per hex, it would instantly vaporize and crunch buildings. The fact that buildings and houses were standing at all (albeit highly damaged) in New Orleans, shows that it was lesser damage applied over a longer period of time.[/quote']

 

 

New Orleans was hit by a hurricane and associated storm surge, that is a far differant thing than a Tsunami. A hurricanes storm surge is generally measured in feet or even 10's of feet, Tsunami's are quite often 100 feet or more, in the 1960's Alaska was hit by a Tsunami after a 8+ earthquake, the wave was nearly 800 feet high, and came inland something like 20 miles, no dike will stop that.

 

As some of the other posters have suggested, if you want the heroes to stop the disaster build it within their ability to stop, if they are not supposed to stop it, then build it big. Real physics and comic books have little in common, if they did I would be busy irradiating spiders and then annoying them until they bit me

[braincraft]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

No the only thing that stops a Tsunami is high ground' date=' I'd like to see these dykes and levies that can stop a Tsunami[/quote']

 

Yeah, you'd have to be a pretty butch dyke to stop a whole tsunami.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, if you want to know how much damage a tsunami does, you have to consider: how much STR does the ocean have? Is the Pacific Ocean built on more points than the Indian Ocean?

[Gary]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

New Orleans was hit by a hurricane and associated storm surge, that is a far differant thing than a Tsunami. A hurricanes storm surge is generally measured in feet or even 10's of feet, Tsunami's are quite often 100 feet or more, in the 1960's Alaska was hit by a Tsunami after a 8+ earthquake, the wave was nearly 800 feet high, and came inland something like 20 miles, no dike will stop that.

 

As some of the other posters have suggested, if you want the heroes to stop the disaster build it within their ability to stop, if they are not supposed to stop it, then build it big. Real physics and comic books have little in common, if they did I would be busy irradiating spiders and then annoying them until they bit me

 

 

Hmm, from what I heard, Tsunamis usually defeat dikes and levies by washing over them, not blowing them down. And the dikes and levies are usually still standing, although possibly damaged when the waves wash over.

 

That sounds like a relatively low base damage attack with lots of area (height) to me.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

So could you use creatively shaped Force Walls to weaken the Tsunami to lessen the effects?

 

Thank you to eveyone. Please do not stop now.

 

QM

 

Sure, given enough warning, I produce several Force Walls to constantly disrupt the Tsunami by forcing it to break early and often. Hopefully, pulling energy out of it.

 

Or I would use Force Walls to move enough water around to stir up a counter-Tsunami to stop it. "Maybe I should I spun it counter-clockwise???"

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

Yeah, you'd have to be a pretty butch dyke to stop a whole tsunami.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm really tempted to ask if we ought to be sticking a finger in it, but I'm not sure if I'd get away with it.....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stopping Natural & Unnatural Disasters

 

At this point, I'm picturing the Tick standing out on a beach holding his hand out in a majestic pose, with the unflinching confidence that his talk-to-the-hand pose will stop the mighty wave in its tracks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And then get swept away to Atlantis for some undersea adventure before getting spit back out onto dry land.