Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

[mallet]

So, I just started playing Hero again after a vey long departure (about 15 years). And I thought I had a good grasp of the basics of the game (I own the rules and Star Hero) for what I needed in my Star Hero campaign, but recently other players in my area have expressed an intrest in playing in a Hero campaign (I won them over to the rules with a one-shot adventure).

 

So rather then adding them into my Star hero game I thought I'd start up a new darker campaign. So of course I went out and bought Dark Champions.

 

Great book, but I came across something that surprised me.

 

You can use guns with Matrial Arts moves.

 

This makes no sense to me. How can a Quick Shot with a gun do more then normal shot? Shouldn't only the location that is hit (and maybe how well you roll if you use some of the alternate rules) cause more damage with a bullet?

 

I don't have the UMA (and I assume that this is covered in that book), but could someone please let me know the justification as to why this type of build is allowed?

 

Because now I've got a few players itching to make "gun-fu" characters a'la Equilbrium but I am having a hard time seeing the logic of why a gunshot to the head would do more damage by using a "Quick Shot" then a gunshot to the head by a normal shot.

 

Can any one enlighten me?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

bear in mind that hit locations are an optional rule.

[mallet]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

bear in mind that hit locations are an optional rule.

 

 

Ok, even if you do not use hit locations, that does not change the basic question.

 

What is a reasoning behind allowing MA manuvers to work with firearms?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

If you look at the history of the game, you'll find that Find Weakness was an early attempt at a "hit location"-like ability without actually defining any hit locations. The current MA rules also have "hit location"-like abilities (flash, NND and trip maneuvers for example). A GM needs to put a lot of thought into any attempt at mixing these systems with the actual Hit Location rules as they can quickly lead to damage after defenses that exceeds the campaign limits/norms (if there are any that is). I personally would go with the MA manuevers instead of Hit Locations since that would then be one less roll to deal with. The sacrifice being made though is that non-martial art characters would then be denied the 'everyman-esq' option of attempting targeted shots. It's all about realism vs. playability.

 

HM

[Susano]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Ok, even if you do not use hit locations, that does not change the basic question.

 

What is a reasoning behind allowing MA manuvers to work with firearms?

 

It also works with bows, shuriken, and other thrown objects. I think its just a way of saying "I'm so good, I can do more damage with my attacks." The maneuvers simply represent taking extra care to shoot the mook of your choice in location X.

[kave99]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

ranged MA works much like HtH MA if i punch you in the face it will hurt. if my Evil duplicate 10th dan black belt punches you in the face it vary likely to hurt way more. the same go's if i shot you in the head i might kill you the sniper will kill you! as for how to justify the increase in damage well damage is not fixed you could build a colt 1911a1 .45 cal as a 1D6 a 2D6 or a 5D6 RKA with 7 charges or 14 charges or 2 clips of 7 charges or as 0 END all would be legal think of 007 and his PPK it's not that good a gun but in his hands it dos not mater that much . another example special op's often use a .22L silenced Rugger and are expected to kill with one shot to the head now that using a standard build 1D6-1RKA generating 1 to 5 points of damage multiplied by 2 gives 2 to 10 body and between 10 and 50 stun a average roll say 6 body and 30 stun with Quick shot and no DC that would be 1D6 RKA it gos on like that add 2DC 1d6+1 .it cost a lot of point but it has a grate feel !

one more thing you can do this with combat skill levels too! in the end its your choice but i would not recommend trying to use these rules with out the UMA have fun

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Im not a fan of Ranged Martial Arts either.

 

 

That aside, here is a character I made for my Champions Universe campaign that was inspired by Equilibrium:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/characterfiles/npcs/Gunman.HTML

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Because now I've got a few players itching to make "gun-fu" characters a'la Equilbrium but I am having a hard time seeing the logic of why a gunshot to the head would do more damage by using a "Quick Shot" then a gunshot to the head by a normal shot.

 

Can any one enlighten me?

 

 

I tried three times to write a response to this, but it always boiled down to "Jeez... haven't you ever seen a John Wu/Chow Yun Fat movie? Tell me that's not a martial art!"

 

Basically, the logic is "this guy is just so amazingly amazing with the guns that his bullets do more damage". Or, as my brother Tariq always puts it when we get into movie arguments, "You are thinking way too deeply about this when you should just nod and smile because its cool".

 

Sorry I wasn't more helpful.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Don't forget, you can never go higher than double the base damage of the weapon. It makes sense to have maneuvers with a + or - to OCV/DCV based on how it is being performed. I can also understand not wanting to allow more damage. That is a simple custom rule.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Well, perhaps think of it in some minor SFX that make a big difference.

 

Regular guy shooting rolls a 3: "You shot him in the head! Ouch! Roll for damage!"

 

MA guy shooting rolls a headshot (let's say a 5): "You shoot him in (rolls) his right eyesocket. It explodes. Don't bother rolling damage."

 

Maybe they have more finesse. Slightly better hit locations on the SAME location to justify more damage. You don't just shoot them in the chest, you shot them in the heart, or right on the sternum (which would hurt A LOT, even if it didn't kill them).

[OddHat]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Agreed with many other posters here. It's meant to represent someone with much better training at hitting a foe where it hurts.

 

Johnny Chicago is a good shot. He has a high DEX, and a couple of levels with pistols. In his hands, his pistol does 2d6-1 Killing damage, about 6 BODY per shot before hit locations.

 

James West is a trained killer and a trick shot artist, a man who obsessively practicing his shooting. He knows exactly how to make each shot count. In his hands, because of better shot placement, a pistol will do 2d6+1 Killing damage, about 8 Body per shot before hit locations.

[mallet]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Thanks for all the input guys. I guess I'll have to mull it over before we start playing to see if I'll allow it.

[Lemurion]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

It makes enough sense to me-- especially in a heroic level or better game. It all adds into the heroic mystique as well where the hero routinely does things with a gun that most people cannot. Remember, we're not simulating the real world, we're recreating a heroic environment.

 

Having said that-- Chow Yun Fat IS a superhero at least in John Wu movies so the bullets in his case may possibly be considered a SFX for his innate power:

 

2D6 RKA Armor Piercing Penetrating, only when using a gun.

[Icel]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Watch Equilibrium, understand Gun Kata.

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Isn't there a writeup of Grammaton Cleric John Preston on the Surbrook's Stuff

website?

 

 

Major Tom

[Susano]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Yes.

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsmovie/johnpreston.html

 

This was not written by me, however.

 

I did do Chow Yun Fat, though:

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionshkaction/chowyunfat.html

 

Enjoy!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Gun-Fu or MA with guns question

 

Some echoes and additional thoughts:

 

Oddhat pointed out the doubling rule - you can never deal more than double damage. We're also talking about cinematic reality here much more so than any sort of "real world" system. In cinematic reality, someone who's a hot shot with a pistol is going to be able to place more bullets in more places more accurately than a rookie on a shooting range. This is represented by adding DCs to the weapon damage itself.

 

Your 'head shot' question is answered in part by acknowledging that a head shot is darn hard to get. I would also point out that in another thread (Fantasy) Old Man noted that you may not want 2 pt. +1 OCV levels to be usable with targeted to hit rolls (or you could have a lot of dead bodies). If you're not comfortable using a Gun-Fu model that increases damage, than you could allow an MA version of it (I think UMA is still in the store - please buy one immediately, it's a great book) that simply doesn't deal additional damage. You could build a manuever "knee capper" that drains DEX/SPD and only hits below the belt (a modified to-hit roll on the chart).

 

There are many many things you can do with MA that alter the cinematic reality of a gun fight. Part of that is look and feel, part of that is design choice. I personally would allow it first and if you don't like it, disallow it. Say, simply, "Sure, you can do that, but if it doesn't feel right or changes the balance, I reserve the right to revoke it." Everyone is then on the same page, and your player is content that you're giving them a crack at it.