Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

[Warp9]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

that's fine' date=' I'm just pointing out that human biology, and the chemical and architectural properties of objects can go a ways toward explaining why attacks with different "energy" levels can do similar damage.[/quote']

Maybe it only seems like "similar damage" because we don't know what damage is.

 

OK, just kidding.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

I once had a teacher who proposed that Physics was superior to things like Biology and Chemistry' date=' because everything comes down to physics (even the functions of organisms and chemicals follow the "Laws of Physics"). Although breaking everything in a biological system down to physics can become very complex.

[\QUOTE]

 

I had a high school physics teacher who was fond of noting that "Chemistry and biology are very important branches of physics." I prefer the definition of:

 

- if it bites you, it's biology

- if it burns you, it's chemistry

- if it just fails to work, it's physics

[Lucius]

Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

I always go back and forth on that.

 

I agree that using Desolidification as Invulnerability is a bit of a fudge (my answer to Sun-diving). Still, it's an "official" fudge that shows up in the 5thER and the USPD I and II in one form or another..

 

I can't understand that. A power whose main game effect is invulnerability, and using it for that is a "kludge?"

 

Of course, the real problem is that Desolidification is really two powers - a defense power of Invulnerability (equivalent to taking Damge Reduction at 100%) and a movement power that should be defined as Tunneling, No Normal Defense.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reiterates that Hero System is not just Champions

[OddHat]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

I can't understand that. A power whose main game effect is invulnerability, and using it for that is a "kludge?"

 

Of course, the real problem is that Desolidification is really two powers - a defense power of Invulnerability (equivalent to taking Damge Reduction at 100%) and a movement power that should be defined as Tunneling, No Normal Defense.

 

I've made the same point many times. As I understand them, the counter arguments include:

1) Desolidification as a defense potentially gives you too much value for its cost.

2) There must never, ever be absolutes in HERO.

3) The SFX of "Invulnerability" is not acceptable for the mechanical effect of "Desolidification".

4) The Affects Solid World advantage applies to attack powers when it should apply to Desolidification itself.

5) ADSO powers interact in strange ways with Desolidification as Invulnerability from an SFX POV.

 

From my POV,

1) In some games it might; when a 40 point defense stops a 1000 point attack, that's a great deal. Still, Block and Missile Deflection give similar very cost effective defenses, and like Desolidification interfere with your attacks when in use and can be overcome in a number of ways. It doesn't bug me.

2) Hogwash.

3) That's up to individual GM's to decide. I have no problem with it.

4) Probably true, and it's much simpler. On the other hand, it makes attacking while Desolidified potentially much cheaper. I might allow it.

5) Maybe, but then that's how things sometimes go with SFX.

 

It's another of those arguments that never ends.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

Y'know, if 100% Damage Reduction existed and required a reasonably common SFX to which the character was still vulnerable (pre-Crisis Superman was still vulnerable to magic, K, and red-sun based stuff, so he had more than enough) there would probably be a lot less objecting to the idea.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

I can't understand that. A power whose main game effect is invulnerability, and using it for that is a "kludge?"

 

Of course, the real problem is that Desolidification is really two powers - a defense power of Invulnerability (equivalent to taking Damage Reduction at 100%) and a movement power that should be defined as Tunneling, No Normal Defense.

I disagree that Desolidification's "main game effect" is invulnerability. That is certainly one of it's most common uses, but I think the "pass through walls" aspect is just as significant (In our campaign, our only PC with Desolidification - our brick - uses it far more to sneak around than she does to avoid damage.). Besides, Affect Desolid attacks are fairly common and make Desolidification a poor method to simulate invulnerability. Additionally, Desolidification doesn't really equate to invulnerability because few characters can interact with the physical world while Desolid. That required +2 Advantage makes Desolidification a very expensive and inefficient way to build "invulnerability." Superman can certainly still punch the bad guys while flying through the sun.

 

I proposed a new Power called Invulnerability last fall precisely because of this dichotomy. It renders the possessor immune to damage (BODY) from an attack of any size, though not from Stun or other attacks that do BODY such as Drains.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

Let's see, 40 points for base desol, zero end persistent, fully invisible--120 active points. With the only to protect against attack form x= 60 points.

 

So, base "invulnerability" would be 60 points, and would protect you against one uncommon SFX/set of attacks, say. For a common SFX/set of attacks, maybe a +1 advantage, 120 points. For a very common SFX(all physical attacks, all energy attacks, etc), 180 points.

Awfully effective, but the base power is equivalent to 40 points of armor, and if you factor in the narrow effect, it's more like 80 points of armor with a limitation. The broadest version is equivalent to 120 points of armor(enough to take zero body from a 20d6 KA).

One would assume a GM would require various limitations and vulnerabilities to balance out such a formidable ability.

[Warp9]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

Lets say that it costs Y points to be immune to energy attacks. Why would I want to spend greater than Y points to buy Energy Defense?

 

And there is no reason to keep on increasing the points in an attack beyond a certain level because you can be pretty sure that beyond a given point your target will stop increasing its defenses and simply become "absolutely immune."

 

I'm not happy with absolutes because IMO you tend to put a cap on the system at what ever point they apply.

 

That is another reason why I favor an exponential progression. If we assume that damage progresses at an exponential rate, then it is possible to simply buy enough defenses to survive at the heart of the sun (or even the center of a Super-Nova) without worrrying about this "absolute immunity" stuff.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

Well, the alternative is to just buy a bunch of extra defense which only applies against attack x, or only against body damage, or whatever, and let the GM hand wave any attacks which happen to exceed the threshold on the ground that your concept allows you to do it.

[OddHat]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

Lets say that it costs Y points to be immune to energy attacks. Why would I want to spend greater than Y points to buy Energy Defense?

 

Maybe because the immunity has limitations that Energy Defense does not. That's the case with Desolidification unless the GM handwaves those limits.

 

And there is no reason to keep on increasing the points in an attack beyond a certain level because you can be pretty sure that beyond a given point your target will stop increasing its defenses and simply become "absolutely immune."

 

I don't see that as a problem, and even so, you can always apply an advantage to get around desolid invulnerability.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

well, yeah, even for the 180 point version of invulnerability, the GM could require that an exception be specified(since that's the way it works with desol, which it's based on). Also, one could purchase "bypasses invulnerability" on the attack. So there could be circumstances under which some normal defense would be needed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

Lets say that it costs Y points to be immune to energy attacks. Why would I want to spend greater than Y points to buy Energy Defense?

 

You wouldn't, of course. If you assume you would have made that ED Resistant, the point break is a lottle lower. Same for Hardened - and how many times would you have hardened it?

 

And there is no reason to keep on increasing the points in an attack beyond a certain level because you can be pretty sure that beyond a given point your target will stop increasing its defenses and simply become "absolutely immune."

 

True - one of those ripple effects that arises from any change to the rules.

 

I'm not happy with absolutes because IMO you tend to put a cap on the system at what ever point they apply.

 

There are two types of Absolute. One is "always effective", which Invulnerability would be. The second is "no way around it", which I expect Invulnerability would be, unless we allow an advantage on attacks to "Avoid Invulnerability", in which case we may need to allow multiple purchases of Invulnerability to stack, and so forth.

 

This is a good point about broad based absolutes. I'm OK with "need not breathe" or "immune to extreme cold" because they don't protect against things other characters paid points for (other than NND's, where they made that choice as part of the purchase). Whatever level we set an "Invulnerable" power at, it will be too expensive for some games, and too cheap for others.

 

If we set the cost at "X points to ignore Y DC's", we don't really have "invulnerability" and we're back to square one.

[OddHat]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

This is a good point about broad based absolutes. I'm OK with "need not breathe" or "immune to extreme cold" because they don't protect against things other characters paid points for (other than NND's, where they made that choice as part of the purchase). Whatever level we set an "Invulnerable" power at, it will be too expensive for some games, and too cheap for others.

 

If we set the cost at "X points to ignore Y DC's", we don't really have "invulnerability" and we're back to square one.

 

There are already multiple forms of limited absolute defenses in the system. Block, Missile Deflection, Dive for Cover, Flying Dodge and Desolidification. We can and do argue about all of them, but there they are. Extending one of them to a full "Invulnerability" power is mostly a matter of working out price. Yes, such a power won't be appropriate for all campaigns, but that's true of most effects.

[Warp9]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

Well' date=' the alternative is to just buy a bunch of extra defense which only applies against attack x, or only against body damage, or whatever, and let the GM hand wave any attacks which happen to exceed the threshold on the ground that your concept allows you to do it.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure I like the idea of this "Absolute Stuff" at all.

 

I mean I've seen a lot of it in AD&D, but it didn't really make that much sense there either.

 

It says in one place that Magni, the God of Strength, has unlimited strength, and can put his fist through any thing. It also says that the Invulernable Coat of Arnd is indestructable and will not be harmed by any amount of force.

 

So what happens if Magni tries to destroy the Coat of Arnd?

 

At least one of these "absolutes" must not actually be absolute.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

There are already multiple forms of limited absolute defenses in the system. Block' date=' Missile Deflection, Dive for Cover, Flying Dodge and Desolidification. We can and do argue about all of them, but there they are. Extending one of them to a full "Invulnerability" power is mostly a matter of working out price. Yes, such a power won't be appropriate for all campaigns, but that's true of most effects.[/quote']

 

May I be two faced? I agree, and I don't. The existing approaches all have limiting factors which render them at least somewhat less than absolute:

 

Block, Missile Deflection Each requires an action, and must succeed at an OCV vs OCV roll. As OCV's go up, the cost of a block or deflection one can be confident in rises. As well, each has fairly common attack types it will fail against.

 

Dive for Cover, Flying Dodge I'm not as familiar with Flying Dodge. DFC leaves you prone, requires an action and requires a roll. The roll is a minimal impediment as it's not opposed. Flying Dodge requires an action and, I believe, Steve has indicated an abort to FD gets you the DCV bonus, but not the "automiss" provided by DFC.

 

Desolidification In addition to a fairly common attack that gets around it, and some attacks it fails against (which I suppose each variant of Invulnerable has - Energy Invulnerability remains vulnerable to physical attacks), desolid impacts your ability to affect the solid world and can be circumvented as a defense with "affects desolid".

 

An Invulnerability power which requires a roll to succeed, takes up your phase or can be overcome with an advantage on an attack, seems not to be "invulnerability" at all, making it much tougher to balance out.

[Warp9]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

well' date=' yeah, even for the 180 point version of invulnerability, the GM could require that an exception be specified(since that's the way it works with desol, which it's based on). Also, one could purchase "bypasses invulnerability" on the attack. So there could be circumstances under which some normal defense would be needed.[/quote']

 

If we are going to have exceptions, lets make it so that the "exception to invulnerbity" is that the attacker has more points in his attack than the defender has in his "invulnerability" defense.

 

That kind of "invulnerability" works fine for me.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

If we are going to have exceptions' date=' lets make it so that the [i']"exception to invulnerbity"[/i] is that the attacker has more points in his attack than the defender has in his "invulnerability" defense.

 

That kind of "invulnerability" works fine for me.

well, usually the cost of defense = about half the cost of the attack. I could see that, though.

 

I kinda like "invulnerability to small arms fire", myself. If you rate "small arms fire" as anything under 20mm, then it makes the person invulnerable to damage from 3d+1, +1 STN mult KA, max 19 BODY and 114 STUN, but standard effect 10 BODY, 40 STUN.

[OddHat]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

May I be two faced? I agree' date=' and I don't. The existing approaches all have limiting factors which render them at least somewhat less than absolute:[/quote']

 

An "Invulnerability" power based on Desolidification, Missile Deflection, etc would have limiting factors. That's the point of building it that way.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

fully invisible DCV levels--perhaps limited to only vs. a specific type of attack--could work pretty well. After all, if the attack doesn't hit you, it doesn't do any damage to you. You'd need a couple other powers to fill in the gaps, though.

[Warp9]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

If we set the cost at "X points to ignore Y DC's"' date=' we don't really have "invulnerability" and we're back to square one.[/quote']

IMO as long as no attack/force in the campaign exceeds your "invulnerability" rating then we have achieved the result we were after.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

hmm, the simplest thing might be just to set "levels", and the number of active points in defense to achieve a given level of effect.

basically, a 1-10 or 1-5 scale of ascending damage of a given type, with the highest number representing the highest level of resistance allowed in the game.

[Warp9]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

One more comment in the "invulnerability" thing:

 

I am concerned that the use of an absolute invulnerability can result in a more "vanilla" campaign. I'm concerned that it could lead to a game where are the characters beyond a specific level tend to look more the same.

 

Q: How tough is Superman?

A: invulnerable

 

Q: How tough is Galactus?

A: invulnerable

 

Q: How tough is Hyperion?

A: invulnerable

 

Q: How tough is Mon-el?

A: invulnerable

 

Q: How tough is Supergirl?

A: invulnerable

 

Q: How tough is Capt Marvel?

A: invulnerable

 

 

 

 

I doubt that many of these characters would actually be on the level of Galactus in terms of resistance to physical force.

 

I'd rather see a system where you can actually put a number to each of these characters' defense level.

[OddHat]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

IMO as long as no attack/force in the campaign exceeds your "invulnerability" rating then we have achieved the result we were after.

 

True enough as it goes, but then there's no point to a "more points equals wins" exception.

 

I'd rather have Desolid based Invulnerability with the limits "May not defend against one fairly common SFX" and "Bypassed by Affects Invulnerable Objects Advantage". Make it 0 End Persistant for +1 and May Attack While Invulnerable for +2 and you have a 160 active point power. For that number of active points in defenses you can build a very tough character anyway; it's not all that unbalancing in any campaign where the GM adjusts for it.

[OddHat]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

One more comment in the "invulnerability" thing:

 

I am concerned that the use of an absolute invulnerability can result in a more "vanilla" campaign. I'm concerned that it could lead to a game where are the characters beyond a specific level tend to look more the same.

 

I'd rather see a system where you can actually put a number to each of these characters' defense level.

 

In practice, I prefer this as well. I just don't see the absolute approach as a problem if priced and applied correctly.

[Lucius]

Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"?

 

Y'know' date=' if 100% Damage Reduction existed and required a reasonably common SFX to which the character was still vulnerable (pre-Crisis Superman was still vulnerable to magic, K, and red-sun based stuff, so he had [i']more[/i] than enough) there would probably be a lot less objecting to the idea.

 

You do realize that you’ve just described Desolidification?

 

Let's see, 40 points for base desol, zero end persistent, fully invisible--120 active points. With the only to protect against attack form x= 60 points.

 

So, base "invulnerability" would be 60 points, and would protect you against one uncommon SFX/set of attacks, say. For a common SFX/set of attacks, maybe a +1 advantage, 120 points. For a very common SFX(all physical attacks, all energy attacks, etc), 180 points.

Awfully effective, but the base power is equivalent to 40 points of armor, and if you factor in the narrow effect, it's more like 80 points of armor with a limitation. The broadest version is equivalent to 120 points of armor(enough to take zero body from a 20d6 KA).

One would assume a GM would require various limitations and vulnerabilities to balance out such a formidable ability.

 

You’re going at it the wrong way – see below.

 

Lets say that it costs Y points to be immune to energy attacks. Why would I want to spend greater than Y points to buy Energy Defense?

 

And there is no reason to keep on increasing the points in an attack beyond a certain level because you can be pretty sure that beyond a given point your target will stop increasing its defenses and simply become "absolutely immune."

 

I'm not happy with absolutes because IMO you tend to put a cap on the system at what ever point they apply.

.

 

Ah, I take it that if you’re running the game, you don’t allow Desolidification?

 

 

I'm not sure I like the idea of this "Absolute Stuff" at all.

 

I mean I've seen a lot of it in AD&D, but it didn't really make that much sense there either.

 

It says in one place that Magni, the God of Strength, has unlimited strength, and can put his fist through any thing. It also says that the Invulernable Coat of Arnd is indestructable and will not be harmed by any amount of force.

 

So what happens if Magni tries to destroy the Coat of Arnd?

 

At least one of these "absolutes" must not actually be absolute.

 

Well, in Greek Myth, one God (I forget which) gave a king a fox that could not be caught, and another God gave another king a hound that could catch anything, and when the two kings got together to try out their gifts, the chase went on for a while and then Zeus resolved the problem by turning both hound and fox into stone.

 

 

The thing is, we already HAVE a couple of absolutes in Hero – No Normal Defense attacks, and Desolidification. Unless you’ve objected to either or both of those (“Why would I spend more points on dice of attack, if I can just take No Normal Defense and always do damage? Why should I spend points on defense, if someone can just take No Normal Defense and bypass them?”) I’m sorry, but I can’t take you too seriously if you say you object to absolutes. If you HAVE objected to either or both of those, then you’re obviously sincere but a little late to keep them out of Hero system – they’re already here. Oh.

 

 

I’ve said this before, but I can’t seem to find the thread….

 

First of all, Desolidification as it currently exists, shouldn’t. Exist that is. If you want to walk through walls, buy Tunneling with No Normal Defense, the “Fill in” adder, and whatever other modifiers it needs to tweak it. If you want Invulnerability, just take Damage Reduction, follow the pattern already set by the first 3 levels, and take it up to the 4th, 100% Damage Reduction. Then apply the limitations needed to a) make it anywhere near affordable, and bring it into some kind of balance. A couple of years ago I painstakingly did all the math and showed that if it works like desolidification (costs END, etc.) the price came out to the same as Desolidification – although with a higher END cost (much higher active points) I wish I could find that thread again!!

 

With no Desolidification, of course there’s no “Affects Desolid” advantage. What there would be, would be an “Irreducible Damage” advantage for attacks. Each level of Irreducible Damage would negate a level of Damage Reduction. So if you bought it twice for your attack, you would ignore 50% Damage Reduction, and do half damage to an “invulnerable” character with 100% Damage Reduction. It would work a lot like Armor Piercing and Hardened. Possibly there should also be a “Hardened” advantage on Damage Reduction to ignore Irreducible Damage.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Absolute Palindromedary