Trebuchet Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 I just finished watching a PBS NOVA episode on climbing Mt. McKinley (Mt. Denali) in Alaska, and the program stated temperatures on the mountain sometimes fell to -140° F (-95° C), and it got me to wondering: Is a 2 Pt Life Support: Safe in Intense Cold enough to protect a character from temperatures that low; or is that simply beyond where LS can go? We're talking temperatures so low it can kill an unprotected human in 30 seconds. How cold would you allow a character to survive with this type of LS? Alternatively, how high a temperature can Life Support: Safe in Intense Heat protect against? The text mentions a desert or heatwave, but doesn't indicate if the character could survive an oven or a blast furnace. Where do you draw the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trained Chicken Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? I think that, if the environment is itself inflicting Killing dice on a character, then LS is not enough. Otherwise, it should be good. Intense Cold LS should protect a character from the rigors of space IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? A 2 point life support works for exactly that situation. It works in the near absolute 0 of space, and it doesn't protect you against Mister Chill's 3d6 Ice Gun. It's one of those absolutes in Hero System that some players want to get rid of and others want to expand. Personally, I don't mind it. It's one of those "Boring Things Won't Kill Me" effects that every cinematic universe uses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? Alternatively' date=' how high a temperature can Life Support: Safe in Intense Heat protect against? The text mentions a desert or heatwave, but doesn't indicate if the character could survive an oven or a blast furnace. Where do you draw the line?[/quote'] If it's an "Attack", then LS does nothing. If it's an Environmental Effect, LS protects completely. If you have a non absolute sytem of Life Support in mind, I'd be interested. Still, it will be very hard to do cheaply, and a power this common in every genre should be cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? To me, "LS - Immune" means that, no matter how extreme the environmental effect, if that's its SFX, it cannot harm the character. -140 degrees, deeps of space and absolute zero are all "extreme cold". "Extreme heat" could be a desert, a bonfire or the heart of a sun. "Immune" means just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? I'm in agreance with Oddhat and Hugh here, LS protects you from Environmental Effects, as long as the Environment meets the conditions (extreme cold in this case) you're immune. Now, if you wanted to add a bit of danger to the situation, a sudden burst of wind may cause a bit of system shock and inflict a minor amount of damage. But the cold itself shouldn't effect them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? So would Life Support allow a character to ignore someone's Change Environment Power? Example: The Resister has Life Support versus Heat and Cold, and is attacked by the Evil Thermostat, with the power to raise and lower temperatures. The Evil Thermostat raises the temperature around the Reisister by 1000 degrees, and the Resister yawns. Undeterred, the Evil Thermostat lowers the temperature by 2000 degrees, but the Resister just stands there, still unaffected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? I would say. Yes. If all the CE does is alter the Temperature levels than LS would be the appropriate DEF to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? I would probably rule that LS makes you immune to whatever earthly hazards you bought protection for. Thus things like burning houses and the highest mountains would present little if any danger. Dramatic imperative is important, of course, so certainly you might be in some danger or at least discomfort, but you wouldn't be killed outright or even take damage automatically. Character concept is paramount, and should be talked out with the player before play begins. So for example, Starman and Aqua Guy might both have LS: High Preasure, but only Starman would be safe in deep in the atmosphere of Jupiter. However, considering how unlikely Jupiter is to appear in a campaign, I probably wouldn't even charge one more point for this, it's just a SFX of the character concept. The Sun (or any star) is a different matter. The Sun generates an energy killing attack that no one is safe from, with out a huge ED. Anything plunging below the photoshpere is disassociated into atoms. As others have said, LS protects you from CE but not attacks with the same SFX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? It depends a lot on the genre. For Supers it means anything except specific weapon damage. So space and magma are no issue. For Heroic it means quite a different thing. It's usually when the damage from the environment would exceed 30 AP. I've gone ahead and given an option for increased Environmental LS (10 pts)...mostly because its a monster hunter campaign and some creatures should be REALLY resistant to extreme temps. You can only take the extended version with GMs approval. The extended LS is the same as in my Supers game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? The Sun (or any star) is a different matter. The Sun generates an energy killing attack that no one is safe from, with out a huge ED. Anything plunging below the photoshpere is disassociated into atoms. This is a genre issue. In a high power Supers game, you should be able to explore the interior of a Star with nothing more than 40 points of Desolidification and 17 points of Life Support. Both powers are absolutes, and both are fairly cheap because it fits the genres where they're likely to come into play. That's not to say that they must be allowed; however, as they're meant to be used, they're not broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? It depends a lot on the genre. For Supers it means anything except specific weapon damage. So space and magma are no issue. For Heroic it means quite a different thing. It's usually when the damage from the environment would exceed 30 AP. I've gone ahead and given an option for increased Environmental LS (10 pts)...mostly because its a monster hunter campaign and some creatures should be REALLY resistant to extreme temps. You can only take the extended version with GMs approval. The extended LS is the same as in my Supers game. Is this a house rule? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted January 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? So would Life Support allow a character to ignore someone's Change Environment Power? Example: The Resister has Life Support versus Heat and Cold, and is attacked by the Evil Thermostat, with the power to raise and lower temperatures. The Evil Thermostat raises the temperature around the Reisister by 1000 degrees, and the Resister yawns. Undeterred, the Evil Thermostat lowers the temperature by 2000 degrees, but the Resister just stands there, still unaffected. As I read the rules, LS does provide total protection from most damaging effects of CE. It's somewhat dependent on sfx; a character might be immune to extreme cold from CE but still take damage from large hailstones generated by the CE. Perhaps the best way to determine this is if the CE user purchased additional damage as part of the effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? I would probably rule that LS makes you immune to whatever earthly hazards you bought protection for. Thus things like burning houses and the highest mountains would present little if any danger. Dramatic imperative is important' date=' of course, so certainly you might be in some danger or at least discomfort, but you wouldn't be killed outright or even take damage automatically.[/quote'] For the mountain, you can always fall off. As for the burning house, smoke inhalation and oxygen deprivation will also be a problem without appropriate breathing-related LS. Plus you won't want to actually step in a fire or anything -- that still constitutes attack damage in my book. But you could do the usual firefighter routine (tolerate the heat while trying to avoid being set afire) without suffering too much from the temperature of the environment you're operating in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? Steve Long has gone on record as saying LS does not protect against the heart of the sun. Keith "For what that's worth" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? Steve Long has gone on record as saying LS does not protect against the heart of the sun. Keith "For what that's worth" Curtis Steve has also gone on record saying that he is the queen of Sardinia, and that his armies of Pudding People would soon make short work of his enemies! Or was that someone else? EDIT TO ADD: I did specify Desolidification + Life Support, not just Life Support on it's own. The build is taken from Supernova in Galactic Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? This is a genre issue. In a high power Supers game, you should be able to explore the interior of a Star with nothing more than 40 points of Desolidification and 17 points of Life Support. Both powers are absolutes, and both are fairly cheap because it fits the genres where they're likely to come into play. That's not to say that they must be allowed; however, as they're meant to be used, they're not broken. I can see that, sure. This goes along with "character concept." If the concept of the character and the genre envisioned by the GM allow such a thing, why not? But, I feel that is also not a part of the vast majority of genres. Possibly only galactic champions, possibly even that requires "galactic champions Z" before it should be allowed. I don't feel the PCs should ever be all powerful, least the mysteries of life all become blasé. But I also realize that I'm expressing a preference for a range of genre, and that's a personal bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? Is this a house rule? Yeah. We needed a breakpoint someplace. The standard LS: Environment was just way too cheap to provide any kind of half-step. 2 pts - Can run around in Winter without a jacket 10 pts - Can run around in Antarctica in Winter without a jacket 10 pts + Desol - Can run around at Absolute Zero without a jacket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? Steve Long has gone on record as saying LS does not protect against the heart of the sun. Keith "For what that's worth" Curtis was Steve also responsible for throwing exponential damage progression out the window and saying the heart of the sun does 975d6 KA APx8, Penetrating x16 per segment? Apparently a questonite sphere with the mass of a neutron star would be instantly vaporized 3 or 4 times over in one second by the heat of the sun's core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? was Steve also responsible for throwing exponential damage progression out the window and saying the heart of the sun does 975d6 KA APx8, Penetrating x16 per segment? Apparently a questonite sphere with the mass of a neutron star would be instantly vaporized 3 or 4 times over in one second by the heat of the sun's core. Yup. And again, we have at least one official character who can sundive all day according to his write-up. Part of the problem is the genre issue; thermal underwear seems to have a -1/4 Real Clothing limit that prevents it from protecting from temperatures below X. For those who don't want any absolutes in Hero System, what price do you think Life Support is worth? 1 pnt per 5 points of def against Environmental Damage Type X? 1 point per 10? The most obvious change from that kind of approach is that many kind of NND would instead become AVLDs. Instead of Radiation being an NND Does Body, it would become an AVLD Does Body vs Radiation Defense, and players would have to worry about how many points to invest. I don't know if that's an improvement. Players would be spending tons of points on defences that might rarely or never come up in play, just because it's silly to talk about certain character types being affected by certain forms of environmental damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? A 2 point life support works for exactly that situation. It works in the near absolute 0 of space, and it doesn't protect you against Mister Chill's 3d6 Ice Gun. It's one of those absolutes in Hero System that some players want to get rid of and others want to expand. Personally, I don't mind it. It's one of those "Boring Things Won't Kill Me" effects that every cinematic universe uses. Bloody well right and repped. Who wants James Bond to die of exposure when Q supplied him with nuclear long johns. Save the danger for the bullets, explosions and esoteric bladed thingies rather than the weather, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethosos Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? In short... LS: Heat only protects you against the long-term effects of just heat. Immunity: Fire will give you both that and the ability to sit in the bonfire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? I did say "for what it's worth"... Keith "not much, apparently" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? I did say "for what it's worth"... Keith "not much, apparently" Curtis Well, it is worth something. Sorry, I seem to be posting in a confrontational manner tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Life Support: How much is "Intense"? It's OK. We're still bestest buds. Keith "Oddhat's Pal" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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