Millennium City walled or not

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

They already exist.

 

Not quite. Not yet. But when they are ubiquitous and centrally-controlled as those in Millennium City, they will be an egregious civil rights violation.

 

You do know that we live in the Iron Age, right?

[James Gillen]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

 

You do know that we live in the Iron Age, right?

 

That was my point. And Millenium City after the death of Detroit would technically be "post-Iron Age."

 

JG

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

And Millenium City after the death of Detroit would technically be "post-Iron Age."

 

Yes, indeed. Much like the City Of Domes.

[David Johnston]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

There is no civil right to go unobserved in public so far as I know. The expectation of privacy applies to private property. That's why they call it "private". However, having inconspicuous cameras widespread all over the place poses obvious, perhaps insuperable problems for any superhero with a secret identity. One answer of course is to not have secret identities in the first place. For example in the Silver Age Legion, the Science Police were watching everywhere with their little police drones and everyone took it for granted, but nobody was trying to be Batman under those circumstances, at least not in that city.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

There is no civil right to go unobserved in public so far as I know. The expectation of privacy applies to private property. That's why they call it "private". However' date=' having inconspicuous cameras widespread all over the place poses obvious, perhaps insuperable problems for any superhero with a secret identity. One answer of course is to not have secret identities in the first place. For example in the Silver Age Legion, the Science Police were watching everywhere with their little police drones and everyone took it for granted, but nobody was trying to be Batman under those circumstances, at least not in that city.[/quote']

 

There is a certain kind of privacy in going untracked and not having your movements followed. The ubiquitous cameras make it far too easy for someone to know where you go, who you meet, what you do, etc.

[David Johnston]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

But in fact you don't have the _expectation_ of privacy (as a legal concept). Anyone who wants to, private eyes, police in unmarked cars, can follow you around on your daily routine and you don't have a legal right you can invoke to stop them, so far as I know. The closest you can get is anti-stalking laws, or complaints of harassment and those aren't about privacy, but about implied threats. If you don't know they're doing it and file a complaint, they aren't doing anything illegal even if someone else knows. But I'm more interested in the secret identity issue. How would you go about maintaining a secret identity that was actually secret from the authorities in such a set up?

[James Gillen]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

There is no civil right to go unobserved in public so far as I know. The expectation of privacy applies to private property. That's why they call it "private". However' date=' having inconspicuous cameras widespread all over the place poses obvious, perhaps insuperable problems for any superhero with a secret identity. One answer of course is to not have secret identities in the first place. For example in the Silver Age Legion, the Science Police were watching everywhere with their little police drones and everyone took it for granted, but nobody was trying to be Batman under those circumstances, at least not in that city.[/quote']

 

I think that since the main heroes in MC are the Champions, and at least 2 of them are Public ID, the authorities don't care so much.

 

JG

[ghost-angel]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

There is no Civil Rights violation of tracking public routes with cameras (centralized or not). So anyone who thinks there is ... sorry you're wrong.

 

The government can, and has in some places, set up cameras on every street corner to capture everyone who passes through the area and no right of yours have been violated.

 

that line of arguement is null, void and moot for discussions on how to use Millenium City. If you want to make it a dark corrupt place misuse those cameras. If you want a more idealized Superhero environment - use them as MitchellS has suggested, they are some good suggestions IMO.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

There is no Civil Rights violation of tracking public routes with cameras (centralized or not). So anyone who thinks there is ... sorry you're wrong.

 

The government can, and has in some places, set up cameras on every street corner to capture everyone who passes through the area and no right of yours have been violated.

 

According to who? The government?

[David Johnston]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

According to who? The government?

 

Specifically according to the law which doesn't forbid it and hence allows it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

According to who? The government?

Which amendment says you can't be watched in public? None. So it's not illegal, therefore it's allowable.

 

Don't site search and seizure either ... that one covers your personal body, not where you're standing.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Which amendment says you can't be watched in public? None. So it's not illegal, therefore it's allowable.

 

Don't site search and seizure either ... that one covers your personal body, not where you're standing.

 

Actually, I was thinking of the SCOTUS-affirmed right to privacy, based partly on the Ninth Amendment.

 

Remember, rights don't come from the government, they're supposed to be upheld by the government, and power is granted by the people to the government.

 

Amendment IX:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

 

Amendment X:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Actually, I was thinking of the SCOTUS-affirmed right to privacy, based partly on the Ninth Amendment.

 

Remember, rights don't come from the government, they're supposed to be upheld by the government, and power is granted by the people to the government.

 

Amendment IX:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

 

Amendment X:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Fair enough they left it up to the states...

 

Still doesn't make it illegal. Otherwise the first Traffic Photo van to take your picture would have been stomped all over - but it's now common practice.

 

So common in fact that they have stations cameras at intersections in many places to video the driver and the car for the purposes of traffic violations.

 

Also cameras pointed at public places by both private and state/federal organizations exist all over the place. If a gov. can't "violate" such a "right" than neither can a private company, and sidewalks are WELL covered in my city, more so in places like New York City.

 

There is no such Civil Right as "can't be watching in public" just one for Private Property.. specifically YOUR private property (or all those CCTVs in stores would also be illegal, and they aren't).

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Fair enough they left it up to the states...

 

Still doesn't make it illegal. Otherwise the first Traffic Photo van to take your picture would have been stomped all over - but it's now common practice.

 

So common in fact that they have stations cameras at intersections in many places to video the driver and the car for the purposes of traffic violations.

 

Also cameras pointed at public places by both private and state/federal organizations exist all over the place. If a gov. can't "violate" such a "right" than neither can a private company, and sidewalks are WELL covered in my city, more so in places like New York City.

 

There is no such Civil Right as "can't be watching in public" just one for Private Property.. specifically YOUR private property (or all those CCTVs in stores would also be illegal, and they aren't).

 

Again, you're making the mistake of assuming that rights are granted. Rights are not granted by a government. Whether a particular government recognized a right isn't the same question as whether or not that right exists.

 

Also, at least here in Michigan, NONE of those traffic cameras are for traffic violations. You can't issue a ticket based on a remote camera image in MI, because the ticket isn't issued to the car, it's issued to the driver. All the cameras on the streets are for traffic control and dynamic stoplight control systems.

[David Johnston]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Again, you're making the mistake of assuming that rights are granted. Rights are not granted by a government. Whether a particular government recognized a right isn't the same question as whether or not that right exists.

 

So how do you determine whether a right exists?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Again, you're making the mistake of assuming that rights are granted. Rights are not granted by a government. Whether a particular government recognized a right isn't the same question as whether or not that right exists.

 

Also, at least here in Michigan, NONE of those traffic cameras are for traffic violations. You can't issue a ticket based on a remote camera image in MI, because the ticket isn't issued to the car, it's issued to the driver. All the cameras on the streets are for traffic control and dynamic stoplight control systems.

In CO I can tell you those cameras are taking pictures of the DRIVERS, not the car. And they're damn good photos too.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Again' date=' you're making the mistake of assuming that rights are granted.[/quote']

 

Lots of people are making lots of mistakes, but it's all really way off the subject, anyway.

 

The point is, Millennium City can be used as a silver age setting, or as a "false utopia" in just about any setting, but it requires some adjustment either way.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

In CO I can tell you those cameras are taking pictures of the DRIVERS' date=' not the car. And they're damn good photos too.[/quote']

 

I wonder if anyone has bothered to really fight that...you have a photo of a person in a car, and a claim that they were doing something illegal, and that's it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I wonder if anyone has bothered to really fight that...you have a photo of a person in a car' date=' and a claim that they were doing something illegal, and that's it.[/quote']

Well timed example, even if not from the US.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11744489/

[ghost-angel]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I wonder if anyone has bothered to really fight that...you have a photo of a person in a car' date=' and a claim that they were doing something illegal, and that's it.[/quote']

Yes. Some have failed, some have succeeded. My brother lost both of his tickets that he got this way.

 

The cameras are triggered by speed guns, so they only actually take a photo when you are caught speeding by the gun. Some states do not require the speedgun to be shown to the offender.

 

Intersection cameras are triggered to the lights, since it's illegal to enter the intersection when a light turns red the cameras will trip if anything passes their sensors after the light switches.

 

Some cameras in accident prone intersections are always on watching general traffic but no infractions can be taken from them unless an accident occurs, and then they are usually used for insurance purposes as the cause is usually pretty evident.

[rayoman]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

It's the fact that no matter where you go in MC, you're being watched. That you can't drive down to the corner store or the hospital or anywhere else without the government knowing exactly what you're doing. MC is one giant invasion of privacy.

 

 

Just like any MAJOR City in any technologically advanced society. Take a look around at any city in AMERICA. Take a close look. See any security cameras at the ATM that gets your movements when you are near? Traffic cameras around stop lights or along Interstates? In about every jack@ss' pocket I bet you can find a camera phone. The Modern WORLD is one giant invasion of privacy.

[rayoman]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

A city like Millenium City' date=' in the real world, would be a hypersurveillance nightmare, and all those cameras and those chips in the cars would be used to watch whoever the government felt needed watching.[/quote']

 

I think you are living in a fantasy version of RL. There are camera's all over the place in the real world. There are chips in cars now that can be accessed by inurance companies and I belive the Police that can tell exactly how fast you were going, whether or not you hit your brakes, etc. The chips don't drive your car but it does, "SPY" on you.

 

I think I may like playing in the Paranoia Champions game you keep referencing.

[rayoman]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I have a problem with having no choice in the matter.

 

 

Choice is an illusion generated by governments to keep the common person calm.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I think you are living in a fantasy version of RL. There are camera's all over the place in the real world. There are chips in cars now that can be accessed by inurance companies and I belive the Police that can tell exactly how fast you were going' date=' whether or not you hit your brakes, etc. The chips don't drive your car but it does, "SPY" on you. [/quote']

 

Depends on the car, and they don't constantly report in your exact location.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Just like any MAJOR City in any technologically advanced society. Take a look around at any city in AMERICA. Take a close look. See any security cameras at the ATM that gets your movements when you are near? Traffic cameras around stop lights or along Interstates? In about every jack@ss' pocket I bet you can find a camera phone. The Modern WORLD is one giant invasion of privacy.

 

Do all those RL cameras connect to one system? Are they literally everywhere? London is the exception, not the rule. And I would never live in London, for this and other reasons.

 

The "traffic cameras" that people keep refering to are often just for detecting motion and traffic density at the intersection so that the automatic dynamic traffic light controls can adjust -- they don't even connect to anything beyond that intersection.