Millennium City walled or not

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

No kidding. Sounds like whiney people just looking for a boogey-man.

 

I wonder which part is oppressive: The fact that since 1998 people have been able to travel at 70 mph without having one wreck, the walkways that allow you to not have to travel on street level (keeping people safer and traffic flowing smoother) or the high-tech displays on buildings that you can watch while travelling around, such as on the people mover? Oh no! There's...technology! Run away!

 

 

It's the fact that no matter where you go in MC, you're being watched. That you can't drive down to the corner store or the hospital or anywhere else without the government knowing exactly what you're doing. MC is one giant invasion of privacy.

 

But hey, keep slapping lots of smileys on your post and filling it with nonsequitors about fear of technology.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Well you guys keep playing in your iron age mentality and I'll keep playin in my bronze.

 

Millennium City works just fine in a silver age or bronze age game: as a major city in the Oppressive High Tech Foreign Country. It's the sort of place heroes get stranded in, have to fight their way out of, and eventually overthrow.

[MitchellS]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Millennium City works just fine in a silver age or bronze age game: as a major city in the Oppressive High Tech Foreign Country. It's the sort of place heroes get stranded in' date=' have to fight their way out of, and eventually overthrow.[/quote']

I disagree. When I say Iron or Bronze Age thinking I am referring to the ideologies of the period in question. Let's use a Marvel comics examle:

 

Silver Age SHIELD in Marvel was an organization that people trusted and believed in. It was there to help the citizens.

 

Bronze Age SHIELD is still an organization that people trust and believe it, but occassionally someone in SHIELD will do something less then honest. At those times it's up to the heroes to make a difference and fix the problem so that SHIELD can return to being an organization that people trust.

 

Iron Age SHIELD is corrupt from the top to the bottom. The people in it believe they are fighting the good fight and they should do whatever it takes, including destroying civil liberties, to achieve their goals.

 

Those are three Ages of the same organization. Now putting this into Millennium City you have:

 

Silver Age style Millennium City would have people accepting that the chips are there to help them. It's no big deal.

 

Bronze Age Millennium City would have people also accepting that the chips are there to make their lives better, but sometimes the chips will get taken over by a villain or even a corrupt government official. At those times the heroes step-in to fix the problem and at the end all returns to normal.

 

Iron Age Millennim City would have people fearing the chips and thinking "big brother" is using them to spy on them all the time. There'd be a huge blackmarket to buy things to block the chips. People would distrust the MC government but would be too fearful to do anything about it.

 

Ultimately the play style is based on the mentality of the gamers. If you go into it with an Iron Age mentality then that is what the city becomes. I choose to have a Bronze Age mentality, and so the chips are helpful to society but can at times be corrupted by someone or something. At those times the player's charactes make the difference.

[MitchellS]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

It's the fact that no matter where you go in MC, you're being watched. That you can't drive down to the corner store or the hospital or anywhere else without the government knowing exactly what you're doing. MC is one giant invasion of privacy.

 

But hey, keep slapping lots of smileys on your post and filling it with nonsequitors about fear of technology.

There's no one watching, and that is the whole point. Yes, someone could be watching if they wanted to, but no one is watching. The idea that you think someone is always watching is a paranoid Iron Age mentality, and that's not what Millennium City is all about.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

There's no one watching' date=' and that is the whole point. Yes, someone [i']could[/i] be watching if they wanted to, but no one is watching. The idea that you think someone is always watching is a paranoid Iron Age mentality, and that's not what Millennium City is all about.

 

Sorry, but this whole "Age" thing isn't the point here. I don't analyze these things by what Age they fall in to. Neither my games nor my settings nor my characters (PC or NPC) are meant to emulate a particular Age of comics. None of the Ages are entirely true to life -- they lack verisimilitude -- and so I end up with a more science-fiction premise than the modern fantasy feel of most superheroic comic books: take the real world, insert people with superpowers, what do you think would really happen?

 

A city like Millenium City, in the real world, would be a hypersurveillance nightmare, and all those cameras and those chips in the cars would be used to watch whoever the government felt needed watching.

[Hermit]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I disagree. When I say Iron or Bronze Age thinking I am referring to the ideologies of the period in question. Let's use a Marvel comics examle:

 

Silver Age SHIELD in Marvel was an organization that people trusted and believed in. It was there to help the citizens.

 

Bronze Age SHIELD is still an organization that people trust and believe it, but occassionally someone in SHIELD will do something less then honest. At those times it's up to the heroes to make a difference and fix the problem so that SHIELD can return to being an organization that people trust.

 

Iron Age SHIELD is corrupt from the top to the bottom. The people in it believe they are fighting the good fight and they should do whatever it takes, including destroying civil liberties, to achieve their goals.

 

Those are three Ages of the same organization. Now putting this into Millennium City you have:

 

Silver Age style Millennium City would have people accepting that the chips are there to help them. It's no big deal.

 

Bronze Age Millennium City would have people also accepting that the chips are there to make their lives better, but sometimes the chips will get taken over by a villain or even a corrupt government official. At those times the heroes step-in to fix the problem and at the end all returns to normal.

 

Iron Age Millennim City would have people fearing the chips and thinking "big brother" is using them to spy on them all the time. There'd be a huge blackmarket to buy things to block the chips. People would distrust the MC government but would be too fearful to do anything about it.

 

Ultimately the play style is based on the mentality of the gamers. If you go into it with an Iron Age mentality then that is what the city becomes. I choose to have a Bronze Age mentality, and so the chips are helpful to society but can at times be corrupted by someone or something. At those times the player's charactes make the difference.

 

Well, now I gotta disagree, in large part because I see a difference in silver ages where Marvel style and DC style are concerned, and partially because I think you're too quick to skip on to thinking seeing it as a bad idea must equal iron age mentality.

 

Silver Age (DC) style: AMAZING! The wonders of technology are there to help the common man, and it can only improve. Not only are folks terribly glad for this wonderful resource, they have not lost their child like wonder about such marvels. It will never occur to them how it could be abused and even when it is, they'll forget 10 minutes later.

 

Silver Age (Marvel): This is neat, much like flying cars (ala SHIELD)...except when the inevitable missunderstanding occurs and the military or law enforcement comes after our heroes (Spider-Man, Hulk, etc), this is just one more obstacle the PCs will have to contend with. Villains are sure to take over it or use it either way.

 

Bronze Age: This is good, and bad. It saves lives. That's nice, but can and will be used when bad men come to power. Authority isn't evil, but it is often wrong, and when the superhuman persecution begins, this WILL be a tool in it until folks (hopefully) come to their senses. Villains will take over it too often for it to prove worth while, and it will be removed as we all learn that sacraficing freedom, in order to gain a little safety means we ultimately end up with neither.

 

Iron Age: REAL big brother, the government isn't just often mistaken with corrupt folks within, it itself IS corrupt, and it is malice, not ignorance that guides it chiefly. Of course, the heroes are of such dubious character in many cases that they certainly need SOMEONE watching over them, unless, of course, THEY are big brother and either controlling the government, in cahoots with it, or bypass as their leisure.

 

I think Millennium City was meant to be DC Silver... I mean, we've got a great Ape character.

 

But that doesn't change the fact it gives me (and others) the heebie jeebies, and I don't think you have to have an iron age mentality to recognize that it can be abused and might infringe on privacy rights. Some folks are more in marvel silver or bronze mode, that's all.

 

 

Of course, I tend to see being declared Iron age as a bit of an insult. Better Death than to be drawn by Liefield.

 

EDITED for clarification

[Kaeto]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Chicago is already trying this. They have a camera and sound detector keyed to pick up the sound of a gunshot on every block, and The mayor wants to put a camera in every bar at first then eventually in every business all tied into the police.

Ostensibly for crime prevention, but they won't be used just for that.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

what else will they be used for other than limited voyeurism by there operators?

[MitchellS]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Bronze Age: This is good' date=' and bad. It saves lives. That's nice, but can and will be used when bad men come to power. Authority isn't evil, but it is often wrong, and when the superhuman persecution begins, this WILL be a tool in it until folks (hopefully) come to their senses. [b']Villains will take over it constantly[/b], and it will be removed as we all learn that sacraficing freedom, in order to gain a little safety means we ultimately end up with neither.

I'm really only responding to the highlighted section above here.

 

During the entire Bronze Age many things were taken over, but not constantly. How many comics have you read during that Age where the villains took over a nuclear power plant? Very few in fact. If it were that easy to corrupt them then nuclear power plants would be taken over by villains every week. People in the comics do not fear or stop using electricty because a villain might hijack a nuclear power plant. Trouble is what the heroes are there to deal with. The chips are no different. You can't just assume because they are there that they're being constantly corrupted. Assuming that is an Iron Age mentality of gaming.

 

As far as the differences between Marvel and DC, well that is really a different thread entirely. Marvel has always been the more negative place filled with Stan Lee's mental aberrations. Marvel heroes are about overcoming the constant tragedy of their lives [spider-man: death of uncle, Ironman: dying heart, Hulk: Beastial nature, Dr. Strange: Damaged nerves, X-men: Mutant hatred and fear, Avengers: seems like half of them have been ex-criminals, etc] whereas most DC heroes are about helping humanity because it's the right thing to do [only the Batman family is about overcoming tragedy].

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

A lot of it also depends on how you portray the government, as well.

 

In my games, the government and its agents are generally trustworthy and work in the public's best interests. Only people essentially designated (by me, during plot development) as villains use their position for personal gain or anything of the sort, rather like anti-super media personalities are always VIPER fronts or bottom-feeding lowlifes in general trying to make a name for themselves at someone else's expense.

 

(To prevent too much IC/OOC politicking, the current President in my version of the CU is a fictional person with no real life counterpart and not done as a parody of a real politician. No Jordan U. Shrub or Don Berry, f'rinstance.)

 

In my MC, they only check the cameras when there's been a report of a crime, and check the appropriate timeframe. They don't watch people who they think 'need watching'. They are used as anti-crime measures, not just because the government says so, but because that is actually the case. There's no 'watching just because we can', the organization in question actually takes their responsibilities seriously and doesn't abuse their power. After all, with great power ...

 

Like MitchellS said, it's all in how you play it and the tone of your game.

[Hermit]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I'm really only responding to the highlighted section above here.

If you're gonna fixate on one line and claim it invalidates the rest of the arguement, you lose points. Of course, forums are much like Whose Line is it anyway because the points don't matter.

 

That said, I yield in that I made a sweeping generalization (heck, I'll even alter the wording if that one word is all that's bothering you), but I WAS discussing comic books, which at any age are victim to hyperbole in thier stories. And no, it is not an iron age mentality of gaming to assume high technology will be taken over, or abused eventually to a greater determent than they are worth. It is very in genre and occured quite often (albeit not constantly). How many times was STAR labs broken into? How many times did government projects get taken and abused by villains or corrupt officials with agendas in the Bronze age? The answer is .. a lot. The wonders of science, the ideas that it was the guiding star we could all count on that the Silver Age (mostly DC) tended to promote was gone by the bronze age.

 

I supposed I best add qualifiers like "For the most part" "seemingly" etc. and the important IMO and YMMV

[MitchellS]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

If you're gonna fixate on one line and claim it invalidates the rest of the arguement' date=' you lose points. Of course, forums are much like [i']Whose Line is it anyway[/i] because the points don't matter.

 

That said, I yield in that I made a sweeping generalization (heck, I'll even alter the wording if that one word is all that's bothering you), but I WAS discussing comic books, which at any age are victim to hyperbole in thier stories. And no, it is not an iron age mentality of gaming to assume high technology will be taken over, or abused eventually to a greater determent than they are worth. It is very in genre and occured quite often (albeit not constantly). How many times was STAR labs broken into? How many times did government projects get taken and abused by villains or corrupt officials with agendas in the Bronze age? The answer is .. a lot. The wonders of science, the ideas that it was the guiding star we could all count on that the Silver Age (mostly DC) tended to promote was gone by the bronze age.

 

I supposed I best add qualifiers like "For the most part" "seemingly" etc. and the important IMO and YMMV

I wasn't fixating on one line. I just don't have any real interest in getting into prolonged debates about many subjects within a post any more.

 

My point is that Millennium City is just a place. The chips are not written to be a bad thing; in fact Darren wrote them to be a good thing [a way to help cut down on crime]. You have the option of making them a bad thing if you so choose but that isn't their intent in the book. That's all I'm really saying.

[Hermit]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I wasn't fixating on one line. I just don't have any real interest in getting into prolonged debates about many subjects within a post any more.

 

Bah! You'll never be champion of the steel cage foaming flame wrasslemania 4000 contest with that sort of wisdom!

My point is that Millennium City is just a place. The chips are not written to be a bad thing; in fact Darren wrote them to be a good thing [a way to help cut down on crime]. You have the option of making them a bad thing if you so choose but that isn't their intent in the book. That's all I'm really saying.

 

Oh, well, why didn't you say so?

Oh, you just did.

mmmph.

 

I just think that you were a bit quick labeling 'iron age' mentality as the requirement for seeing them as a really bad idea.

 

Seeing as I mentioned how I thought MC was written up to be a DC Silver vibe, I'd have to agree that Darren seems to have meant the chips in a positive light. Of course, only Darren "The Baron" Watts (I've been missing creator nicknames since Stan "The Man" Lee went mostly to movies so I'm making one up for DW) could say for sure, but sounds the most likely

 

 

So mmm...

*Taps fingers, looks around*

 

Snotrockets... what do we argue about now?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Let's use a Marvel comics examle:

 

Silver Age SHIELD in Marvel was an organization that people trusted and believed in. It was there to help the citizens.

 

Unfortunately, SHIELD is a poor example, because SHIELD doesn't have an omnipresent spy network tracking every citizen everywhere they go (along with the other implements of MC's big-brother machinery). The closest analogue I can think of from Marvel (*) is that country where the mutants were all conscripted into what can euphemistically be called "civil service", but that came along quite a bit after the silver age. I can't think of a good silver age analogue for Millennium City, off the top of my head.

 

(* Or was that Image? They may have both had something like that.)

 

Silver Age style Millennium City would have people accepting that the chips are there to help them. It's no big deal.

 

A very Logan's Run way of putting it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Chicago is already trying this.

 

Not only Chicago. You did know that we are living in the Iron Age, right?

[Publius]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

The reason you may have gotten the impression of the wall is the fact that in this area...8 mile IS considered a "barrier", but one based on social/economic factors...not physical ones. Basically...below 8 Mile Road is "The City" of Detroit, while above it is the suburbs. As someone who lives in the area, I can tell you the difference in crossing the 8 Mile line is like being in a different world entirely. About as different as South Central LA and say...Beverly Hills. Millennium City just plays on this by doing the same approach...just in reverse (now the city is the place to be).

 

Rob

I'm one of those 10% of White Detroiters (well, used to be up to about 2 years ago when I moved to the Garden Spot of the State: Flint) who lived below the 8 mile belt. When I feel like playing with the straights I'll regale them with tales of living below 8 mile: Other than a complete absence of all the traffic laws, it wasn't that bad. I lived there for nearly ten years (over ten years if you count the four additional years I spent straddling the line a stone's throw above 8 mile). However, the impression of the wall is there and my students are all terrified of ever going below 8 mile (as in they think it is the Deepest section of the Congo scared).

 

And about the chips in the cars, if you knew anything abut Detroit you'd make that mandatory. Not one doubt in my mind, I wish it were there now. Detroiters do not casually break the traffic laws, they enthusiastically break the traffic laws. Red lights are all optional, signals are not to be used ever (especially if you are a policeman), stopping in the middle of the $#$#&ing street to talk to your dumb-@$$ %^%%$%^&&^%-ing frends is mandatory. Oh, and treat all stoplights that are out as challenges to your manhood and force your way through (rather than treating them as stopsigns). Oh, and the speedlimit in Detroit proper is "c" (as in E=mc2)

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Silver Age (DC) style ... Silver Age (Marvel) ... Bronze Age .... Iron Age...

 

That a very good breakdown on various "age" perspectives on technology, by the way. Very clear, and right on the money.

 

The point being, though, that Millennium City's big brother machinery doesn't need to be "corrupted" or "misused" -- it is inherently evil, much like slavery or re-education camps. It doesn't matter whether the forces in power claim that such things are to "prevent crime", or to "fight terrorism", or even to "save the children" (yesssss.... the chiildreeeeennnnnn....): they will claim that it has some good use, because despots never stand up on the stage, pound their fist on the podium, and say "I am evil! Eeeeeeeviiiiil!" They always claim that the latest bit of oppression is for the populace's own good, and there's always a portion of the population that believes it (generally speaking, it's the portion not yet being herded into "gated communities").

[KawangaKid]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Unfortunately' date=' SHIELD is a poor example, because SHIELD doesn't have an omnipresent spy network tracking every citizen everywhere they go (along with the other implements of MC's big-brother machinery).[/quote']

 

that's what THEY want you to think.

[James Gillen]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

There's no one watching' date=' and that is the whole point. Yes, someone [i']could[/i] be watching if they wanted to, but no one is watching. The idea that you think someone is always watching is a paranoid Iron Age mentality, and that's not what Millennium City is all about.

 

It's actually more like a post-Watergate mentality, but hey.

 

JG

[CBikle]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Were I GMing a Millennium City campaign, I'd probably tone-down stuff like the automobile chips and all the cameras.

 

Both of those things would tend to ruin car chases and mysteries.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I believe London is pointed to as the city with the most cameras in it, New York a good second.

 

I don't believe people in either city are feeling the kind of uber-paranoia the is being seen here...

 

Relax peeps ... it's a fictional city in a Game Setting.

 

Think of the bloody MANPOWER needed to actually watch all those cameras. I bet about 10-20% are watched at any point in time.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Think of the bloody MANPOWER needed to actually watch all those cameras. I bet about 10-20% are watched at any point in time.

 

You don't need people. Millennium City has huge computers for that.

[James Gillen]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I believe London is pointed to as the city with the most cameras in it, New York a good second.

I don't believe people in either city are feeling the kind of uber-paranoia the is being seen here...

 

 

Yeah, but they OUGHTTA be. Whether MC is a Bronze Age setting, I'm living in an Iron Age world.

 

JG

[ghost-angel]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

You don't need people. Millennium City has huge computers for that.

Ditch the AIs. problem solved.

 

Tone it down. problem solved.

 

Make them faulty, breaking a lot requiring tons of maintenance and they're unreliable. problem solved.

 

Or just complain a lot. that always works too.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Ditch the AIs. problem solved....

 

It isn't a problem at all. What you dismiss as "complaining" is merely the evaluation of a sourcebook with an eye toward its utility. As I've said, Millennium City can provide a very worthwhile recurring antagonist-setting in which to place the heroes. As such, it's a good piece of work and a useful game supplement.

 

If there is a "problem", it's only that Millennium City lacks a compelling figurehead to be the "face" of the establishment. It's like a pinball machine without the ball. But add that ball -- the figurehead -- and it all falls into place. (I recommend John Hurt.)