Kristopher Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not We're talking about a city where people fly around wearing spandex. The entire concept of a superhero universe operates by authorial fiat. Costumes don't fall off, bunch up, or ride up despite being made of spandex? Check. Spandex costumes that shrug off anti-tank shells? Check. Character with eyebeams that do Knockback doesn't break his neck when he fires them due to action/reaction physics? Check. Super-strength character holds up skyscraper without it crumbling under its own weight at an angle? Check. Characters grow to enormous heights in complete violation of the square/cube law? Check. Most of which you'll also see me making remarks about from time to time, and none of them supportive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not To you. And to anyone else who's put any study and/or observasion to the way humans have behaved and the world has worked for the last 15,000 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not And to anyone else who's put any study and/or observasion to the way humans have behaved and the world has worked for the last 15' date='000 years.[/quote'] Who wants to apply strict real-life effects to a fictional world that has little in common with the real world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not Well, I had stopped contributing to this thread, ergo sum hermiti, it ceased to be important... ( ) BUT... I do think we are getting a bit heated here on both sides, and starting to drift into a more NGD worthy debate instead of Champions (IE discussing civil rights etc and not just in game) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not Who wants to apply strict real-life effects to a fictional world that has little in common with the real world. It only has little in common because it's been poorly written for so long. The typical comic book setting spends most of its time as a modern fantasy with superpowers, populated by characters who are as unrealistic and unconvincing as the typical romance or porn character, with plot and worldbuilding holes you could walk Galactus through. It's all too rare that people in comics act like real people who happen to be in a world with superpowers. Writing Fallacy #319: "If you accept even one fantastic element, even one improbable conceit, all things are now acceptable and nothing can be questioned." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not The typical comic book setting spends most of its time as a modern fantasy with superpowers' date=' [/i'] THAT'S THE POINT!!! It's NOT reality, it is fantasy, and as such, it is permitted to be better, in any and all ways, than the real world. Thank you for making my point for me. I accept your apology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not THAT'S THE POINT!!! It's NOT reality, it is fantasy, and as such, it is permitted to be better, in any and all ways, than the real world. Thank you for making my point for me. I accept your apology. You know, giant text, and putting words into other people's mouths, aren't really good-faith methods of discussion. I have nothing to appologize for, I didn't appologize, and the only point I made is my own. It's not just about the fantasy aspect...it's that it's bad fantasy when it gets like I described. And "wish fulfilment" is one of the classic types of bad fantasy. I can suspend my disbelief for superpowers, or elves, or magic, or faster than light travel, or lots of aliens that look fairly humanoid. But not for a world that is "better in any and all ways than the real world", or a world where people don't act like people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Gillen Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not Well, I had stopped contributing to this thread, ergo sum hermiti, it ceased to be important... ( ) BUT... I do think we are getting a bit heated here on both sides, and starting to drift into a more NGD worthy debate instead of Champions (IE discussing civil rights etc and not just in game) Further proof of the axiom "Politics abhors a vacuum." Remind me why the NGD posts don't count toward our total, again? JG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not The consequence-free' date=' we-all-love-it description of MC simply lacks versimilitude.[/quote'] First off, it's verisimilitude, the first "i" does get pronounced. (And it's not just you, I've seen several people misspell this word and it just bugs me.) Now, if you've read Millennium City you'll know that it's not a "consequence-free" city. That's you putting words into the MC text. (And we all know you don't like that. ) Writing Fallacy #319: "If you accept even one fantastic element' date=' even one improbable conceit, all things are now acceptable and nothing can be questioned." [/i'] Hmm, your sig has: "It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead." That's just funny. You can't (or is it won't?) accept that a large part of a fictional society isn't opposed to something as simple as an automated highway or cameras to catch criminals. Why? Simply because the GM or because Millennium City doesn't put it at the forefront of all issues? Grow up. Neither comics nor Champions based games are going to concentrate on all aspects of a city. If you're dealing with supers vs supers, you don't need to put in aspects of the Mayor or City Hall or teen angst in every issue. We're going to just have to agree to disagree. You'll be set in your belief that I'm a bad GM/author because I find no need to bring up the issue (non-issue?) in my MC game, and I'll be set that you're whining about loss of privacy, governmental 'control', and misperceiving privileges as if they're rights. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not Well, I had stopped contributing to this thread, ergo sum hermiti, it ceased to be important... ( ) BUT... I do think we are getting a bit heated here on both sides, and starting to drift into a more NGD worthy debate instead of Champions (IE discussing civil rights etc and not just in game) Too true. Time to go do something more important: Laundry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not Dude' date=' I ***ing owe you ****ing rep every ****ing day for a ***ing month.[/quote'] Woohoo! I'll take it! Even if it's only every other day. (Hey, where's the first one? j/k ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not We're going to just have to agree to disagree. You'll be set in your belief that I'm a bad GM/author because I find no need to bring up the issue (non-issue?) in my MC game' date=' and I'll be set that you're whining about loss of privacy, governmental 'control', and misperceiving privileges as if they're rights.[/quote'] Of course, you won't find an actual quote where I call you a bad GM. I said that the issue didn't come up because you didn't want it to come up rather than because it wasn't there in the background. I didn't say that you were a bad GM. So that leaves us with you being insulting, and me being concerned about the unspoken implications of surveillance technology. And in case you missed it, there are multiple rulings from SCOTUS which firmly place a right to privacy in the Bill of Rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBikle Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not I wonder how many Millennium City campaigns have had a situation where the PCs try to take advantage of the city's surveillance system and/or automated highway ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not Somebody else saw the V For Vendetta previews' date=' I see.[/quote'] Actually, I was thinking of 1984 and Equilibrium. John Hurt is in both, and is the face of the shiny, high-tech, for-your-own good surveillance machine in the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not As for specifically Millennium City' date=' all I hear is "whine, whine, whine, let's create paranoia with a boogeyman."[/quote'] Then you are not paying sufficient attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not It's also a very good hero-friendly city' date=' IF YOU CHOOSE TO UTILIZE IT IN THAT WAY...[/quote'] Only for a very loose definition of "hero" (one that would encompass the Sandmen in Logan's Run, for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not Wonder would happen if Hudson City had all the cameras... see that's the oppressive technology setting you're looking for. Millenium City is specifically a Modern Fantasy. The cameras aren't evil oppressive technocractic tools of the ubermensch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not Having stated that' date=' I wouldn't want to live in California, but for much different reasons than hands-free driving.[/quote'] "Hands free" is not a concern for me. I am all for automation and computer assistance. Your portrayal of my objections as Luddism are grossly inaccurate. (As for California, it has a long and sordid history quite apart from anything pertaining to the current discussion, but since that is, in fact, the case, I don't think it's worthwhile to get into all of that here. I'll simply note that I would not wish to live there again, and leave it at that.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not If he really had a secret evil plan' date=' he'd keep it to himself...[/quote'] Oh, you'll find out all about it at the proper time... mwah-ha-ha.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not I suggest the following reading: We Anthem Brave New World 1984 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not I suggest the following reading: We Anthem Brave New World 1984 If I were playing in a Dark Champions game, they would be more than appropriate. But MC is not set for that particular dystopian reality. Take it to the Dark Champions forum if you like that sort of thing. SOME OF US don't have issues simulating a bit of idealized world in our Superhero games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not If I were playing in a Dark Champions game, they would be more than appropriate. But MC is not set for that particular dystopian reality. Take it to the Dark Champions forum if you like that sort of thing. SOME OF US don't have issues simulating a bit of idealized world in our Superhero games. I prefer people in fiction to actually act like people, good and bad -- and not be either idealized as in 50s TV sitcoms or silver age comics, or to be depicted as they are in iron age comics. Neither one is believable. The suggested reading is not about genre... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not I prefer people in fiction to actually act like people, good and bad -- and not be either idealized as in 50s TV sitcoms or silver age comics, or to be depicted as they are in iron age comics. Neither one is believable. The suggested reading is not about genre... Millenium City is about genre. I've read all those books. you left off Ainimal Far BTW. You can make people feel like people (good and bad) in a lighter setting, MC can have evil people. The idea is the setting at large is a bit more idealized than the muck we call reality and many people like that. Many people don't - for that there is Hudson City and Dark Champions genre (for this system). Heck *I* prefer that setting, but I make no illusions that MC is not designed for that concept. So in my happy Superhero world Millenium City has a mostly uncorrupt police force, cameras for catching criminals that 99% don't get used to violate civil rights. In my "gritty realistic Superhero World" it's a lot closer to what you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not So in my happy Superhero world Millenium City has a mostly uncorrupt police force' date=' cameras for catching criminals that 99% don't get used to violate civil rights.[/quote'] You are missing the point: their existence is an egregious civil rights violation. How nice the police are is irrelevant. On the other hand, if I wanted to use Millennium City in a silver age or Zot! style game (I am a huge Zot! fan), it would be easy: drop the cameras, and replace "the wall" and all of the centrally-controlled cars with smart cars that can be optionally set to drive themselves safely (including microsecond responses to any nearby cars which are not being driven safely) on any road. Alternately, make robots cheap and smart enough to do the driving. I prefer the repurcussions of misused robots to the repurcussions of a surveillance state, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Re: Millennium City walled or not You are missing the point: their existence is an egregious civil rights violation. How nice the police are is irrelevant. They already exist. How many cameras do you think you clock in on in the average city on an average day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.