Millennium City walled or not

[James Gillen]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

 

If there is a "problem", it's only that Millennium City lacks a compelling figurehead to be the "face" of the establishment. It's like a pinball machine without the ball. But add that ball -- the figurehead -- and it all falls into place. (I recommend John Hurt.)

 

Somebody else saw the V For Vendetta previews, I see.

 

JG

[Kirby]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

It's the fact that no matter where you go in MC' date=' you're being watched. That you can't drive down to the corner store or the hospital or anywhere else without the government knowing exactly what you're doing. MC is one giant invasion of privacy.[/quote']

Isn't it funny how people whine about invasions of privacy when they're in public?

 

A city like Millenium City' date=' in the real world, would be a hypersurveillance nightmare, and all those cameras and those chips in the cars would be used to watch whoever the government felt needed watching.[/quote']

 

Of course, Millennium City is so outrageous in it's oppressiveness with all those cameras. Unlike modern day. Nope, there're no cameras at the banks you go to, the gas stations, grocery stores, corporate world, malls or any other commercial area. Fortunately, corporations don't track your calls, moves, or purchases. I mean, fortunately Kroger cards don't record what you've purchased, cellular phone companies don't trace your calls and OnStar isn't following your every vehicular move. Oh wait! They are! How silly of me.

 

But wait,there's more! The idea that it's okay for corporations to track your every move and sell your information (after all, how many credit card applications do we get in the mail?) but for the government to do this in hopes of preventing crime is just horrible. Horrible I say! And then, I guess, there's the thought that somehow corporations don't spend money on watching you, but the gov't makes sure every camera is being observed by people watching and waiting for you to revolt. Just the other day I witnessed a SWAT team take down a citizen for jay-walking. Though, they told me not to speak about it or I'd be next. The guy doesn't exist any more, you know.

 

But hey' date=' keep slapping lots of smileys on your post and filling it with nonsequitors about fear of technology.[/quote']

It's called sarcasm. Man some people.... (Sorry, I'm limited to 10 images; this oppressive government regime has cracked down on my image usage. Tsk.)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

It isn't a problem at all. What you dismiss as "complaining" is merely the evaluation of a sourcebook with an eye toward its utility. As I've said, Millennium City can provide a very worthwhile recurring antagonist-setting in which to place the heroes. As such, it's a good piece of work and a useful game supplement.

 

If there is a "problem", it's only that Millennium City lacks a compelling figurehead to be the "face" of the establishment. It's like a pinball machine without the ball. But add that ball -- the figurehead -- and it all falls into place. (I recommend John Hurt.)

 

It's also a very good hero-friendly city, IF YOU CHOOSE TO UTILIZE IT IN THAT WAY instead of assuming that everything in the city is there to screw the common man over. If you want to make it a 'recurring antagonist setting', well, that's your game and I pretty seriously doubt that was the intent, but it's your game, and you're free to interpret things as you wish.

 

It's your choice, not inherently one way or the other.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I wasn't fixating on one line. I just don't have any real interest in getting into prolonged debates about many subjects within a post any more.

 

My point is that Millennium City is just a place. The chips are not written to be a bad thing; in fact Darren wrote them to be a good thing [a way to help cut down on crime]. You have the option of making them a bad thing if you so choose but that isn't their intent in the book. That's all I'm really saying.

 

What does intent have to do with it? I'm trying to think of which old saying fits best here...

 

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"No strategy survives contact with the enemy."

 

 

If I had a dollar for every good intent that yielded a bad result...

[Kirby]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

If ever use Millennium City (and I may some day)' date=' it will be the capital of the Evil Oppressive High Tech Third World Country. Gods forbid any American ever have to live in such a place. [/quote']

I love the irony! This is coming from someone with his sig line as "Everybody should have a secret evil plan. I know I do." I guess you don't like competition, huh?

[James Gillen]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I love the irony! This is coming from someone with his sig line as "Everybody should have a secret evil plan. I know I do." I guess you don't like competition' date=' huh? [/quote']

 

If he really had a secret evil plan, he'd keep it to himself.....

 

jg

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

What does intent have to do with it? I'm trying to think of which old saying fits best here...

 

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"No strategy survives contact with the enemy."

 

 

If I had a dollar for every good intent that yielded a bad result...

 

In the real world, quite a few dollars.

 

In game worlds? Not necessarily. And we are talking about a comic book game world, where things simply don't have to have the same cause-and-effect system that they do in the real world. You can have a trustworthy government in a comic world that doesn't abuse its power for personal gain of money and/or power.

 

Frankly, in my superhero games, you'd have maybe two bucks on the first sentence, but you'd be rich off the second from the PCs so-called strategies.

[Kirby]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Gods forbid any American have to live there' date=' either...[/quote']

Why? What don't you like about people getting around on the roads at faster paces without congestion or worry about wrecks? Do you just hate the concept of people not having to drive? Or is it the lack of human control? Do you hate elevators now that there's no one to stand around and push the buttons for you? What about the automated rail cars at airports that take you to different terminals? Are those so oppressive that you think God should intervene and prevent people from living there?

 

 

Having stated that, I wouldn't want to live in California, but for much different reasons than hands-free driving.

[Kirby]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

If he really had a secret evil plan' date=' he'd keep it to himself....[/quote']

Not according to Hollywood and comics!

 

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Isn't it funny how people whine about invasions of privacy when they're in public?

 

Of course, Millennium City is so outrageous in it's oppressiveness with all those cameras. Unlike modern day. Nope, there're no cameras at the banks you go to, the gas stations, grocery stores, corporate world, malls or any other commercial area. Fortunately, corporations don't track your calls, moves, or purchases. I mean, fortunately Kroger cards don't record what you've purchased, cellular phone companies don't trace your calls and OnStar isn't following your every vehicular move. Oh wait! They are! How silly of me.

 

But wait,there's more! The idea that it's okay for corporations to track your every move and sell your information (after all, how many credit card applications do we get in the mail?) but for the government to do this in hopes of preventing crime is just horrible. Horrible I say! And then, I guess, there's the thought that somehow corporations don't spend money on watching you, but the gov't makes sure every camera is being observed by people watching and waiting for you to revolt. Just the other day I witnessed a SWAT team take down a citizen for jay-walking. Though, they told me not to speak about it or I'd be next. The guy doesn't exist any more, you know.

 

What has you in such a state over this? What is it that leads you to launch such an onslaught of sarcasm?

 

What inspires you to put words in my mouth and make statements about my opinions that not only don't have any basis in what I said here, but also run entirely counter to statements I've made elsewhere on these forums on the same subject?

 

Seriously, why are you on the attack over this? Who pissed in your cherios?

 

As I've said elsewhere, I loath the daily invasion of privacy that we're subjected to by both corporations and the government, and I am aware that it's corporations who are worse in that regard so far. I've stated on multiple occasions that it should be illegal, to buy, sell, trade, gather, or share information about a person without their written consent, with a few carefully defined and stated exceptions. This would include credit reports. Prerequisite drug testing and off-the-clock behavior restrictions by employers should be illegal. Need I go on?

 

We were specifically discussing the implications of a government-controlled pervasive tracking and surveillance system, such as is in place in Millenium City.

[Kirby]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

It's also a very good hero-friendly city, IF YOU CHOOSE TO UTILIZE IT IN THAT WAY instead of assuming that everything in the city is there to screw the common man over. If you want to make it a 'recurring antagonist setting', well, that's your game and I pretty seriously doubt that was the intent, but it's your game, and you're free to interpret things as you wish.

 

It's your choice, not inherently one way or the other.

You know, in my Millennium City game, there's never been a problem from the NPCs nor the PCs about the tech level. Heck, one of the PC's only form of movement is his feet (well, boots really), so he uses the People Mover all the time to go from point A to point B, in costume! Somehow, the government hasn't taken time out to log his every move and invade his public privacy.

 

As for the V-Chips, this hasn't been a problem, except for this one time at the beginning of the campaign when a vehicle with a V-Chip (and occupied by VIPER agents) was able to turn it off and do a hit and run. Fortunately, it was so early in the game that no PC/Player ever noticed it.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

In the real world, quite a few dollars.

 

In game worlds? Not necessarily. And we are talking about a comic book game world, where things simply don't have to have the same cause-and-effect system that they do in the real world. You can have a trustworthy government in a comic world that doesn't abuse its power for personal gain of money and/or power.

 

Frankly, I have trouble getting very interested fiction or game worlds where there's no cause-and-effect, as you put it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Why? What don't you like about people getting around on the roads at faster paces without congestion or worry about wrecks? Do you just hate the concept of people not having to drive? Or is it the lack of human control? Do you hate elevators now that there's no one to stand around and push the buttons for you? What about the automated rail cars at airports that take you to different terminals? Are those so oppressive that you think God should intervene and prevent people from living there?

 

 

Having stated that, I wouldn't want to live in California, but for much different reasons than hands-free driving.

 

I'm coming around to taking the 'governments can't be trusted' feeling that's ubiquitous in RL and requiring it to be in place in the game. Of course, part of the reason I game is so that, for a while, I can imagine a game that's distinctly better than the real world.

 

Trustworthy governments with the public's best interests in mind (except for a handful of rotten eggs).

People with great power who use it responsibly, to help people without expectation of reward, who respect all life, even the lives of the wicked.

The evil are punished, good wins over evil most of the time, and if it doesn't, it's only a temporary setback; good comes back stronger, and wins. Some villains even realize their mistake and honestly rehabilitate.

 

This is why I don't play Dark Champions, or any other 'dark' game ... if I want to lose even more belief in the basic goodness of mankind, I'll read a newspaper.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Why? What don't you like about people getting around on the roads at faster paces without congestion or worry about wrecks? Do you just hate the concept of people not having to drive? Or is it the lack of human control? Do you hate elevators now that there's no one to stand around and push the buttons for you? What about the automated rail cars at airports that take you to different terminals? Are those so oppressive that you think God should intervene and prevent people from living there?

 

 

Having stated that, I wouldn't want to live in California, but for much different reasons than hands-free driving.

 

I don't have anything against other people driving hands-free, if they want to, and the system actually works.

 

I have a problem with having no choice in the matter.

 

Install an "autodriver" lane on the highway, let the rest of us who like driving go ahead and drive.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

You know' date=' in my [i']Millennium City[/i] game, there's never been a problem from the NPCs nor the PCs about the tech level. Heck, one of the PC's only form of movement is his feet (well, boots really), so he uses the People Mover all the time to go from point A to point B, in costume! Somehow, the government hasn't taken time out to log his every move and invade his public privacy.

 

As for the V-Chips, this hasn't been a problem, except for this one time at the beginning of the campaign when a vehicle with a V-Chip (and occupied by VIPER agents) was able to turn it off and do a hit and run. Fortunately, it was so early in the game that no PC/Player ever noticed it.

 

Maybe it's all working out without any problems because you like the idea, and your the one running that fictional world.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Frankly' date=' I have trouble getting very interested fiction or game worlds where there's no cause-and-effect, as you put it.[/quote']

 

Of course, since I said 'not the same cause-and-effect', not 'no cause-and-effect', that sentence is irrelevant.

 

As I stated, it depends on how the GM chooses to utilize the setting and set the tone. If it's NEVER used for dishonest purposes, then:

BECAUSE we have cameras, we're helping our heroes fight crime.

Effect: Positive.

 

 

If the GM uses them to spy on innocent people, then:

BECAUSE we have cameras, we can keep tabs on our political enemies.

Effect: Negative.

 

See? Swings both ways.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Maybe it's all working out without any problems because you like the idea' date=' and your the one running that fictional world.[/quote']

 

WE HAVE COMPREHENSION!!!!!

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

Of course' date=' since I said 'not the same cause-and-effect', not 'no cause-and-effect', that sentence is irrelevant.[/quote']

 

Slight misunderstanding on my part. I thought you were using "not the same" in the sense of "none", which I've seen people do before.

 

 

As I stated, it depends on how the GM chooses to utilize the setting and set the tone. If it's NEVER used for dishonest purposes, then:

BECAUSE we have cameras, we're helping our heroes fight crime.

Effect: Positive.

 

 

If the GM uses them to spy on innocent people, then:

BECAUSE we have cameras, we can keep tabs on our political enemies.

Effect: Negative.

 

See? Swings both ways.

 

Sounds like authorial fiat, in either direction.

 

In real life, it's both, inevitably. The positive is that the cameras make fighting some types of crime easier. The negative is that the cameras make it easier to invade someone's privacy. They don't even have to be used to invade privacy, spy on the opposition, whatever. It's that the potential, the risk, is too high to justify their installation. The risks exceed the rewards.

 

And yes, even on a train or walking down the sidewalk, you have privacy...there is privacy in not having someone know where you go all day. There is privacy in annonymity.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

WE HAVE COMPREHENSION!!!!!

 

To me, "It's working out that way because I want it to work out that way." isn't much of an excuse on the part of an author or GM when their story or game hits a point that strains plausibility.

[Kirby]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

What has you in such a state over this? What is it that leads you to launch such an onslaught of sarcasm?

 

What inspires you to put words in my mouth and make statements about my opinions that not only don't have any basis in what I said here, but also run entirely counter to statements I've made elsewhere on these forums on the same subject?

 

Seriously, why are you on the attack over this? Who pissed in your cherios?

 

As I've said elsewhere, I loath the daily invasion of privacy that we're subjected to by both corporations and the government, and I am aware that it's corporations who are worse in that regard so far. I've stated on multiple occasions that it should be illegal, to buy, sell, trade, gather, or share information about a person without their written consent, with a few carefully defined and stated exceptions. This would include credit reports. Prerequisite drug testing and off-the-clock behavior restrictions by employers should be illegal. Need I go on?

 

We were specifically discussing the implications of a government-controlled pervasive tracking and surveillance system, such as is in place in Millenium City.

An "onslaught" of sarcasm? Wow. Was it really an "onslaught"? A vigorous attack?

 

As for your opinions, you'll have to understand that you really don't rate high enough in my life for me to track down what you've said elsewhere. (Maybe I should hire a government watcher to see what all you've said?) My responses weren't just about your comments. You really aren't the center of my attention. And it's Cheerios, with a capital "C" and two "e"'s. You see (well, hopefully) I'm not upset, I'm laughing at anyone who complains about the montrosity of this fictional city.

 

As for specifically Millennium City, all I hear is "whine, whine, whine, let's create paranoia with a boogeyman." Since Millennium City doesn't state or even hint at the woes and oppression you've suggested, it only exists in your mind.

 

Now, if you'll excuse me, there are these people that keep insisting that the government is covering up aliens at Area 51 that I have to dispose of.

[James Gillen]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

I'm coming around to taking the 'governments can't be trusted' feeling that's ubiquitous in RL and requiring it to be in place in the game. Of course' date=' part of the reason I game is so that, for a while, I can imagine a game that's distinctly better than the real world.[/quote']

 

What, the ability to shoot laser beams outta your eyes isn't enough for ya?

 

JG

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

To me' date=' "It's working out that way because I want it to work out that way." isn't much of an excuse on the part of an author or GM when their story or game hits a point that strains plausibility.[/quote']

 

We're talking about a city where people fly around wearing spandex. The entire concept of a superhero universe operates by authorial fiat.

 

Costumes don't fall off, bunch up, or ride up despite being made of spandex? Check.

Spandex costumes that shrug off anti-tank shells? Check.

Character with eyebeams that do Knockback doesn't break his neck when he fires them due to action/reaction physics? Check.

Super-strength character holds up skyscraper without it crumbling under its own weight at an angle? Check.

Characters grow to enormous heights in complete violation of the square/cube law? Check.

 

If the basic nature of people is to be good, then it doesn't violate plausability for people to not misuse their power and technology.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

An "onslaught" of sarcasm? Wow. Was it really an "onslaught"? A vigorous attack?

 

As for your opinions, you'll have to understand that you really don't rate high enough in my life for me to track down what you've said elsewhere. (Maybe I should hire a government watcher to see what all you've said?) My responses weren't just about your comments. You really aren't the center of my attention. And it's Cheerios, with a capital "C" and two "e"'s. You see (well, hopefully) I'm not upset, I'm laughing at anyone who complains about the montrosity of this fictional city.

 

As for specifically Millennium City, all I hear is "whine, whine, whine, let's create paranoia with a boogeyman." Since Millennium City doesn't state or even hint at the woes and oppression you've suggested, it only exists in your mind.

 

Now, if you'll excuse me, there are these people that keep insisting that the government is covering up aliens at Area 51 that I have to dispose of.

 

Dude, I ***ing owe you ****ing rep every ****ing day for a ***ing month.

[Kristopher]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

An "onslaught" of sarcasm? Wow. Was it really an "onslaught"? A vigorous attack?

 

As for your opinions, you'll have to understand that you really don't rate high enough in my life for me to track down what you've said elsewhere. (Maybe I should hire a government watcher to see what all you've said?) My responses weren't just about your comments.

 

Even though you were quoting them...

 

You really aren't the center of my attention.

 

Personally, I try to keep people's statements in the context of all of their posts I've read. Which isn't the same as tracking down all of their posts before I reply.

 

And it's Cheerios, with a capital "C" and two "e"'s.

 

Banal pedantry...

 

You see (well, hopefully) I'm not upset, I'm laughing at anyone who complains about the montrosity of this fictional city.

 

Because laughter is, of course, the best defense against people who disagree with you...

 

As for specifically Millennium City, all I hear is "whine, whine, whine, let's create paranoia with a boogeyman." Since Millennium City doesn't state or even hint at the woes and oppression you've suggested, it only exists in your mind.

 

That the description of Millenium City is one of a happy, shiney place isn't enough, when the very presence of the surveillance system implies both a violation of privacy, and the risk of things far worse. I'm not objecting to it because I think there's a vast oppresive government conspiracy in Mllenium City, but rather because the very presense of the system in question is an abuse of the citizens, and because I wouldn't want to live in a place like that, and I don't understand why people think it's a great idea.

 

The consequence-free, we-all-love-it description of MC simply lacks versimilitude.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Millennium City walled or not

 

The consequence-free' date=' we-all-love-it description of MC simply lacks versimilitude.[/quote']

 

To you.