Speedster limitation

[Vestnik]

At present, the comic book trope of the guy running so fast that he can zip across water/up walls is usually done by buying Flight, only along a surface (-1/4).

 

But this means that the character can, whithin the rules, use his "super speed" to whiz across a lake when only moving at 1" a phase. Shouldn't there be some sort of a "must be moving at least x inches" attached to the power construction?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

At present, the comic book trope of the guy running so fast that he can zip across water/up walls is usually done by buying Flight, only along a surface (-1/4).

 

But this means that the character can, whithin the rules, use his "super speed" to whiz across a lake when only moving at 1" a phase. Shouldn't there be some sort of a "must be moving at least x inches" attached to the power construction?

Technically it means he can stand on water or sideways on the side of a building. SFX would argue otherwise.

 

I'd just attach a -0 Limitation: Must be moving at 1/2 Move or better.

[Vestnik]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Would you accept "cannot hover" as a limitation on Flight at more than -0? (Something I have seen in character builds.) This would be a variant.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Trebuchet is an acknowledged authority on high speed characters, so that's good advice.

 

One other approach to the whole problem would be to agree with the GM that in your world, at a certain speed you CAN run across water without sinking and run up the side of buildings. It is comic reality, afterall, and doesn't need to model real world physics. That way you don't need to use the limited flight idea (which is not much of a limtiation anyway unless the GM really enforces turn modes).

 

Hero: one question, an infinite number of answers.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Would you accept "cannot hover" as a limitation on Flight at more than -0? (Something I have seen in character builds.) This would be a variant.

Not in addition to "Only on Surfaces," since by definition a hover is not in contact with a surface. "Cannot Hover" for a character who is airborne (like with wings) is worth -¼ IMO. (We have a character in my Dark Champions campaign with just that Limitation.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Cannot hover is potentially a huge problem, certainly if you play the the character in a game where movement is important, but Hero is not that game: the movement mechanics are pretty rough and ready (but they work). On a video game 'cannot hover' would be a pain: in Hero it is an occasional inconvenience. I'd agree with -1/4.

 

As a GM I'd play that -1/4 with penalties to stealth rolls while fly-sneaking (if that is at all possible) as a moving target is easier to spot than a stationary one (or one that can stop when the guard is looking that way), and the occasional combat penalty when appropriate (maybe trying to catch something whilst airborne is harder if you can't regulate your speed with that jind of precision). Also I'd play it that if you were FORCED to stop, you'd fall....

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Trebuchet is an acknowledged authority on high speed characters, so that's good advice.

 

One other approach to the whole problem would be to agree with the GM that in your world, at a certain speed you CAN run across water without sinking and run up the side of buildings. It is comic reality, afterall, and doesn't need to model real world physics. That way you don't need to use the limited flight idea (which is not much of a limtiation anyway unless the GM really enforces turn modes).

 

Hero: one question, an infinite number of answers.

Well, since there are real-world lizards that can run across the surface of the water (and yes, they sink if not moving fast enough) I don't think it's that much of a stretch from real physics to comic book physics. (Granted, the lizards also have webbed feet, but they aren't moving nearly as fast as comic book speedsters, either. )

 

I think Treb has the right idea, and it also has the charm of being easy, simple, and compact (easy to write on a character sheet).

 

In the end, whatever your gut as a GM tells you is what you should listen to; if you're the player, discuss your get feeling with your GM and see if their gut agrees.

 

Also, it's not necessary to list each limitation seperately, as a number of things that should, for the sake of flavor & SFX, be on there as limitations may not be enough by themselves to be worth even a -1/4. So you might end up doing something like this:

 

Flight xxx", Only in contact with a surface, must be moving at least at half max. combat movement to run across a liquid or up a vertical surface, cannot run on inverted surfaces or surfaces inclined at more than 90 degrees, affected by traction issues just like someone using Running would be (-3/4)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

The only real advantages running has over flight are:

 

1. Not so much KB

2. No turn mode

 

I'm not sure how much of a problem the KB is: quite difficult to quantify as it will depend on average damage for the campaign, and I'm not sure how much turn modes are enforced (if you want your speedster to be able to zip around a building making lots of right angled turns, limited flight is NOT for you)

 

I probably would not limit flight as much as -3/4: compare:

 

1. 30" running with turn mode (-1/4) costs 48 points

2. 30" flight (at -3/4) is 34 points: more that enough for 6 points of KBR to completely negate the KB penalty and it would still only cost 46 points and be far more useful, I would suggest.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

I probably would not limit flight as much as -3/4: compare:

 

1. 30" running with turn mode (-1/4) costs 48 points

2. 30" flight (at -3/4) is 34 points: more that enough for 6 points of KBR to completely negate the KB penalty and it would still only cost 46 points and be far more useful, I would suggest.

That comparison works great... except that I would say it is worth -3/4 when you compare that Flight to Standard Flight, which is really what you should do.

 

If you're tryign to get Power A to accomplish something you Limit based on not just how limited it will be but how limited it will be versus an unlimited version of Power A.

 

Comapring Flight Build X to Running Build X will only lead to confusion, missapplied Advantages and Limitations and frustration on the part of everyone methinks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Frustration can be fun:)

 

I almost agree. You are quite right the first question you should ask is 'how limtied is this in relation to the base power', but I would postulate a second stage, a checksum, if you like, where you compare it to another power, in this case running.

 

The comparison is valid, I would submit, becasue you are in fact trying to create a sort of advantaged running: running that can take you over liquids and up walls.

 

My problem is (OK, one of my many problems is...) that you wind up giving the flier a power that is considerably better than spending the same points on running. If you've another character who has used running rather than limited flight there could be a perception of unfairness.

 

I think there is a real argument for making movement a single power that you can advantage (and/or limit) to make it what you want it to be. One day, maybe...

 

In practice I would not limit the flight by any more than -1/2.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Well' date=' since there are real-world lizards that can run across the surface of the water (and yes, they sink if not moving fast enough) I don't think it's [i']that[/i] much of a stretch from real physics to comic book physics. (Granted, the lizards also have webbed feet, but they aren't moving nearly as fast as comic book speedsters, either. )

 

Point of order/useless trivia.

 

Basilisks do not have webbed feet. They do have exceptionally long toes however. I know because I used to own one

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

You can buy clinging, only while moving (-1/2) if you like which will cover running up walls, and you can use Dr A (and Bloodstone's) real world example of the lizard to make a game world rule that any normal sized human can run on water if they have an unbroken speed of (say) 25" a phase or more.

 

I know that the book suggests limited flight, but it is not necessarily the only way to do it.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Point of order/useless trivia.

 

Basilisks do not have webbed feet. They do have exceptionally long toes however. I know because I used to own one

Okay, thanks; I must have been misremembering. In any case, it spreads their weight over a larger surface area.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

You can buy clinging, only while moving (-1/2) if you like which will cover running up walls, and you can use Dr A (and Bloodstone's) real world example of the lizard to make a game world rule that any normal sized human can run on water if they have an unbroken speed of (say) 25" a phase or more.

 

I know that the book suggests limited flight, but it is not necessarily the only way to do it.

 

At some point in the past when discussing this, I suggested allowing an Adder for clinging that allowed the character to "cling" to the surface of water or other semi-solid materials. It seems bulky to me to purchase flight (with all its inherent features such as a turn mode) when all you want to do is stand on a surface you can't normally stand on. That sounds like clinging to me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

At some point in the past when discussing this' date=' I suggested allowing an Adder for clinging that allowed the character to "cling" to the surface of water or other semi-solid materials. It seems bulky to me to purchase flight (with all its inherent features such as a turn mode) when all you want to do is stand on a surface you can't normally stand on. That sounds like clinging to me.[/quote']

 

 

I really like this: treat clinging more like a form of 'environmental movement' - a more generic power. Great idea. Repped.

[Guest Lollygagger]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Not meaning to throw more oil on the fire, but doesn't the Flight version also allow you to jog across ceilings in addition to up walls and across liquids?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Yes. the Flight version allows for movement across any "surface" regardless of the orientation of that surface.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Not meaning to throw more oil on the fire' date=' but doesn't the Flight version also allow you to jog across ceilings in addition to up walls and across liquids?[/quote']

 

 

But then so would the clinging version....

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

You can buy clinging, only while moving (-1/2) if you like which will cover running up walls, and you can use Dr A (and Bloodstone's) real world example of the lizard to make a game world rule that any normal sized human can run on water if they have an unbroken speed of (say) 25" a phase or more.

 

I know that the book suggests limited flight, but it is not necessarily the only way to do it.

The Clinging route is the one I prefer, only I use the term "Stall Velocity."

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

The Clinging route is the one I prefer' date=' only I use the term "Stall Velocity."[/quote']

Hmmm...like the stall velocity for aircraft (p. 464, 5ER)? Buy the Clinging with a -1/4 or -1/2 Limitation as they suggest for vehicles, but the stall velocity in this case doesn't come from what the Limitation is on (the Clinging power) but on what provides the movement (the Running power).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Well if you can't Cling at low Running Velocities that seems a Limitation on Clinging to me, after all you can still run at low velocities.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Right; I was talking about a build like this:

 

Surface Tension and Inertia Are My Friends: Clinging (normal STR), Any non-gaseous surface (+1); Linked (Running) (-1/2), Cannot resist Knockback (-1/4), Stall velocity is 1/2 Running combat movement (-1/4), Maximum inverted distance is 1/2 Running combat movement (-1/4)

20 Active, 9 Real

 

Also note that, unlike most similar builds, this one does let you run even across inverted surfaces, like a ceiling...at least for a little ways...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Oh... yeah.... Nice build. I like the ceiling movement.

[Zed-F]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Right; I was talking about a build like this:

 

Surface Tension and Inertia Are My Friends: Clinging (normal STR), Any non-gaseous surface (+1); Linked (Running) (-1/2), Cannot resist Knockback (-1/4), Stall velocity is 1/2 Running combat movement (-1/4), Maximum inverted distance is 1/2 Running combat movement (-1/4)

20 Active, 9 Real

 

Also note that, unlike most similar builds, this one does let you run even across inverted surfaces, like a ceiling...at least for a little ways...

Good idea. I think there's too many -1/4 lims on there that overlap, though. I prefer:

 

Surface Tension and Inertia Are My Friends: Clinging (normal STR), Any non-gaseous surface (+1); Cannot resist Knockback (-1/4), Only while running at least a half-move (-1/4), Maximum inverted distance is 1/2 Running combat movement (-0)

20 Active, 13 Real

 

You might toss on Restrainable though, or Costs END, or a RSR.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Speedster limitation

 

Hmm. Remember that velocity and distance are actually (mostly) independent of each other in the Hero System. My character can currently have a running velocity of 50" per Phase but only actually move 3 hexes (or none) on the map this Phase. A little silly in general, but in any case I would probably base the Limitation on velocity rather than distance moved. Remember that velocity does have other effects, such as DCV (using the optional rule or even just the CV/NCV distinction), Move Through/By damage (including incidental damage if the character is Stunned, etc.), and other such dealies.