Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

It's as if' date=' instead of having Swinging and Entangle, they just had "Webbing" that gave you both, forcing you to, for example, buy Webbing and limit it if you want Swinging.[/quote']

 

Actually, Entangle is one of those "mixed powers" as well. It immobilizes and creates barriers, but becomes very kludgy if you want to immobiize without wrapping the target up in some sold or semi-solid matter.

 

Desolid is a power which alters one's physical form, removing its interaction with the solid world. Everything else it does is a byproduct of that removal from the solid world. I suppose it could easily be eliminated and replaced with a sample EDM power. The character moves to the Desolid Plane, where he can still perceive, and be perceived by, the Solid World, but they cannot affect one another. Affects Desolid and Affects Solid World both disappear, replaced with Transdimensional.

[OddHat]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

Actually, Entangle is one of those "mixed powers" as well. It immobilizes and creates barriers, but becomes very kludgy if you want to immobiize without wrapping the target up in some sold or semi-solid matter.

 

Desolid is a power which alters one's physical form, removing its interaction with the solid world. Everything else it does is a byproduct of that removal from the solid world. I suppose it could easily be eliminated and replaced with a sample EDM power. The character moves to the Desolid Plane, where he can still perceive, and be perceived by, the Solid World, but they cannot affect one another. Affects Desolid and Affects Solid World both disappear, replaced with Transdimensional.

 

And his Invulnerability could be brought back in by giving him Transdimensional senses and powers, including some sort of ability to project a convincing image of himself into the physical world.

 

Wasn't there a 3rdEd villain built something like that?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

And his Invulnerability could be brought back in by giving him Transdimensional senses and powers, including some sort of ability to project a convincing image of himself into the physical world.

 

Wasn't there a 3rdEd villain built something like that?

 

I think there was a character who looked like a Brick with a sidekick, but was actually the "sidekick" with powerful images and TK, so everyone attacked the Brick Image.

[OddHat]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

I think there was a character who looked like a Brick with a sidekick' date=' but was actually the "sidekick" with powerful images and TK, so everyone attacked the Brick Image.[/quote']

 

Now I feel like digging through my old Enemies books.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

Here's one that bothers me whenever I see it: using Images to represent psychic/psionic/mental illusions. The SFX is clearly defined as Mental, but by a strict reading of the rules, no amount of EGO, Mental Defense, or Mental Damage Reduction is going to do a thing to protect a character from that power.

 

If a PC wanted to use Images to build a mentalist's illusion power, I'd insist that it was constructed with BOECV, etc, but I usually see it constructed without those Advantages and Limitations.

 

Personally, I'm inclined to see such a build as a deliberate end-run around the mechanics of Mental powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

My take (and I've largely beeen staying out of this) is that you can't add

 

POWER + SFX

 

where POWER = any power and SFX = any sfx.

 

You can only add powers and sfx that make sense together. If the power you've built does not make sense in terms of the sfx you have assigned, and the explanation of how the power works, you need to either change the sfx or the build.

 

There seems to be a bit of a groundswell of SFX for PRESIDENT, in places, and, well, I don't really agree. I am all for allowing to let sfx make changes to the way the power works in game in a small way or, occasionally, and with a Power Skill roll, in a major but temporary way BUT only if the sfx made sense in the first place.

 

They are not a free upgrade. Hero is, at heart, a game that is based around a points construction system, and for that to work there has to be an ideal of balance (I know: that's why I said 'ideal'). SFX are a part of the system: they still have to balance.

[OddHat]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

I haven't seen any great push to allow SFX to trump Mechanics regardless of game balance, but then I may not have been reading the right threads. I do agree that the SFX of a given mechanic needs to make sense in context.

 

I also think that we often don't look at SFX in context, and we have different ideas on what makes sense. Thus the endless "Is Desolid a valid Invulnerability Trick" debate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

Here's one that bothers me whenever I see it: using Images to represent psychic/psionic/mental illusions. The SFX is clearly defined as Mental, but by a strict reading of the rules, no amount of EGO, Mental Defense, or Mental Damage Reduction is going to do a thing to protect a character from that power.

 

If a PC wanted to use Images to build a mentalist's illusion power, I'd insist that it was constructed with BOECV, etc, but I usually see it constructed without those Advantages and Limitations.

 

Personally, I'm inclined to see such a build as a deliberate end-run around the mechanics of Mental powers.

Why?

 

I just see Mental Illusions as "Generated by your Mental Power" and has nothing to do with the targets level of mental power beyong powers of perception. You're not affecting their brain directly, your affecting their perception of the world.

 

Thre's no inherent SFX built into the Power.. it's mechanical effect is to alter the perceived world.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

Why?

 

I just see Mental Illusions as "Generated by your Mental Power" and has nothing to do with the targets level of mental power beyong powers of perception. You're not affecting their brain directly, your affecting their perception of the world.

 

Thre's no inherent SFX built into the Power.. it's mechanical effect is to alter the perceived world.

 

The target's perception of the world takes place in their brain and sensory organs. Claiming a mental SFX for a power and then building it to entirely circumvent the target's EGO, Mental Defense, etc, is no different from building a brick's punch as a BOECV Drain BODY so that it entirely circumvents the target's DCV, Armor, etc.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

The target's perception of the world takes place in their brain and sensory organs. Claiming a mental SFX for a power and then building it to entirely circumvent the target's EGO' date=' Mental Defense, etc, is no different from building a brick's punch as a BOECV Drain BODY so that it entirely circumvents the target's DCV, Armor, etc.[/quote']

Because it's entirely possible the SFX are describing the point of origin as much as anything else:

 

Psychic Fist: Energy Blast.

 

See, a "mental" attack that has nothing to do with mental effects.

 

You could say "pain" is all in the mind too considering pain threshholds for people vary.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

Because it's entirely possible the SFX are describing the point of origin as much as anything else:

 

Psychic Fist: Energy Blast.

 

See, a "mental" attack that has nothing to do with mental effects.

 

That would still be a physical attack though, regardless of how you want to juice it up in the name, working against DCV, ED or PD, etc. Of course, I wouldn't allow someone to take a "mental" attack that worked against "physical" defenses, or a "physical" attack that works against "mental" defenses. I don't care if someone wants to make it a physical SFX or mental SFX attack so long as they use the appropriate mechanics to go along with the SFX. What I'm concerned about is someone calling an attack a mental illusion, but using different mechanics to get around the way the Power Mental Illusions works.

 

You could say "pain" is all in the mind too considering pain threshholds for people vary.

 

Not because "pain threshholds vary".

 

Pain caused by actual damage to tissues is a different SFX from pain caused by psychic powers or artificial neural stimulation or whatever that isn't actually doing any damage.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

That would still be a physical attack though' date=' regardless of how you want to juice it up in the name, working against DCV, ED or PD, etc. Of course, I wouldn't allow someone to take a "mental" attack that worked against "physical" defenses, or a "physical" attack that works against "mental" defenses. I don't care if someone wants to make it a physical SFX or mental SFX attack so long as they use the appropriate mechanics to go along with the SFX. What I'm concerned about is someone calling an attack a mental illusion, but using different mechanics to get around the way the Power Mental Illusions works.[/quote']

So a Psychokinetic who can mentally manifest a physical force wouldn't be allowed in your games?

 

how narrow minded.

 

plonk.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

So a Psychokinetic who can mentally manifest a physical force wouldn't be allowed in your games?

 

how narrow minded.

I think you're reading him wrong, G-A. I think what he's saying is that a mentalist who buys TK or EB as "mental" attacks is still going to target DCV, not ECV, and damage will properly go against PD or ED rather than Mental Defense.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

I'm not sure I am ... but I could be.

 

How you define SFX can, and should be, independant of Mechanics. If I define the SFX of my Energy Blast as "Mental Burt of Energy from my Third Eye." I would consider that a Mental SFX with a Physical Mechanic.

 

If I defined the Mental Burst Of Energy from my Third Eye" as an Ego Blast I would consider that a Mental SFX with a Mental Mechanic.

 

Same SFX - Difference Mechanic. SFX are divorced from Mechanics.

 

If I define my "Mental Illusions" as a Visually Manifested Image (Images Power) then it's a Mental SFX with a Physical Mechanic.

If I define my Mental Illusions" as Fooling A Targets Mind (Mental Illusions Power) then it's a Mental SFX with a Mental Mechanic.

 

If I'm reading Kristopher correctly (and I may not be) the first of each of my examples would not be allowed by him. Which is bunk at best and crap poor gaming at worst.

[tesuji]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

let me toos 2 cents in...

 

i don't think anyone would have a problem with a psionic who manifests fire.. a pyrokinetic. no amount of will or ego on the target will prevent being burned.

 

By the same token, your "mental images guy" COULD BE DEFINED AS "a videokinetic" who generates light and does thinks with it. Thus the images are really just images, not something conjured in the mind of the viewer. A camera would see them, as it would any images power effect.

 

this is a very different power and sfx than MENTAL ILLUSIONS where the effect is in the mind and where a camera would not see anything.

[tesuji]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

Regarding the boundary between SFX and limitation, going back to the missile deflection and the comment about SFX being minor plusses and minuses...

 

What if there are only effectively minor plusses and no real minuses?

 

Consider missile deflection...

 

Several SFX include : bounces off my shield, defelcted by force field bubble i throw in the way, super-speed sidestep, teleport sidestep.

 

These all appear perfectly valid and i think i have seen most used.

 

Consider these SFX: Absorbs attack harmlessly (energy attack on energy creature), takes attack and ignores it (invulnerability trick), catches attack in super-dense hand hand (another version of the inv-trick)

 

Again, probably have been seen.

 

Finally consider the following SFX: one-way Teleportal opens in fromt of attack whyisking it off to some distant desert, sea, deep space.

 

Now the big difference in these attacks is "is the shot" still in play?"

 

The first set is clearly, sure, it might hit something else or cause damage.

the second set is "probably not" barring some wierd bounce off me rule.

The third one is "definitely not"

 

now in lighter styles of comics, richchets and misses are probably ignored, but in grittier ones, they probably count. Setting such as "surrounded by helpless people, surrounded by fragile machines, on thin hulled spaceship, or even in the niddle of gasoline or such containers make for good play in games and really makes the "shot still in play" significant.

 

But where is the downside for "shot not in play" like teleportal guy? there really isn't one. no one is gonna let the players with MD bounce the attack and get meaningful benefit from it, as that requires missile REFLECTION and a butt load more points.

 

So, it really looks like there are "minor" benefits from time to time to being teleportal guy but no real downsides to that "shot is gone now" SFX.

 

Heck, consider this, now have the enemy armed with shuriken or some other RECOVERABLE CHARGE weapon. Teleportal guy "removes" the weapon, the shot and thus it cannot be recovered easily, while all the other SFX at least leave it in the neighborhood... even if stuck to the chest of the guy throwing cars.

 

In one of our more memorable moments, pulsar was attacking a museum filled with kids. One of the heroes jumped in between them. pulsar smiled and let loose at the guy with full auto-fire pulses.

 

the player went white as he realized the misses would slam into the kiddies and told me "i try to take all the shots". A DCV 0 moment later, he hit the ground hard with body below 0 and a little stun left. he could have "super-dodged but that would have meant fried kiddies. had he had teleportal "mini-gates" MD instead... much less singed furr.

 

So, would you say that these different SFX which all vary mostly only in how often the shot will still be in play all count as just SFX or since there seems to be little downside would "shot not in play after deflection" be considered an advantage pure and simple?

[Kristopher]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

I'm not sure I am ... but I could be.

 

How you define SFX can, and should be, independant of Mechanics. If I define the SFX of my Energy Blast as "Mental Burt of Energy from my Third Eye." I would consider that a Mental SFX with a Physical Mechanic.

 

If I defined the Mental Burst Of Energy from my Third Eye" as an Ego Blast I would consider that a Mental SFX with a Mental Mechanic.

 

Same SFX - Difference Mechanic. SFX are divorced from Mechanics.

 

If I define my "Mental Illusions" as a Visually Manifested Image (Images Power) then it's a Mental SFX with a Physical Mechanic.

If I define my Mental Illusions" as Fooling A Targets Mind (Mental Illusions Power) then it's a Mental SFX with a Mental Mechanic.

 

If I'm reading Kristopher correctly (and I may not be) the first of each of my examples would not be allowed by him. Which is bunk at best and crap poor gaming at worst.

 

I would allow the power. But I wouldn't call it a "Mental Power". It's some kind of light control, photokinesis you might call it.

 

A power that manifests physically-existant illusions of light is a different SFX from a power that causes the targets to experience things that aren't there through direct mental tampering. This is true even if they are both possed by the same character and are allowed into the same Multipower or Elemental Control.

 

Two different powers, two different SFX.

 

"Comes from a mentalist" IS NOT an SFX.

[OddHat]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

So, would you say that these different SFX which all vary mostly only in how often the shot will still be in play all count as just SFX or since there seems to be little downside would "shot not in play after deflection" be considered an advantage pure and simple?

 

If a given SFX grants a clear advantage, the GM has every right to charge for it as he sees fit.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

I would allow the power. But I wouldn't call it a "Mental Power". It's some kind of light control, photokinesis you might call it.

 

A power that manifests physically-existant illusions of light is a different SFX from a power that causes the targets to experience things that aren't there through direct mental tampering. This is true even if they are both possed by the same character and are allowed into the same Multipower or Elemental Control.

 

Two different powers, two different SFX.

 

"Comes from a mentalist" IS NOT an SFX.

So Psychokensis (Mental manipulation of physical forces) is not a legit. SFX then.

 

We'll agree to disagree and I'll be glad I'm nowhere near your table.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

So Psychokensis (Mental manipulation of physical forces) is not a legit. SFX then.

 

Where would you get that idea?

 

I just said I'd allow "photokinesis".

 

 

I would hesitate, however, to allow it as an excuse to build using Images and thereby sidestep the limitations of the Mental Illusion Power on a character that had no other sign of being able to mentally manipulate light or anything else.

 

And, as I said to begin with, that seems to be what's going on in most of the cases where I see this particular build: using Images to get around the cost of Mental Illusions, and to give it AoE, and to make it harder to resist. NOT because the possessing character is in any way "photokinetic".

 

If a player wants a power for which the SFX involves his mind affecting the mind of another, then the power will use the mechanics of EGO, ECV, Mental Defense, etc. End of story, no cute and funky builds that are the Mental Powers equivalent of using an AVLD or NND Does Body RKA for a simple energy attack just so that the character can ignore PD or ED when he attacks. I don't see why that's so unreasonable on my part.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

What if those Images involve more than Light (Photokenisis).

 

Psychokenetic Projection: Images: Sight, Sound, Touch groups.

 

I'm using my mind (Mental) to project a physical almost real object (Physical). You'd disallow that simply because I've stated my point of origin is my Mental Power Suite?

 

How about if I'm using my mind to force a physical blast at the target instead (Energy Blast: PD).

 

I can come up with all sorts of Mental Powers whose Mental SFX are the Point Of Origin being the Characters Mental Capability (Psionics if you want) and do nothing but affect the Physical World. Which you've stated you'd explicitely deny.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

What if those Images involve more than Light (Photokenisis).

 

Psychokenetic Projection: Images: Sight, Sound, Touch groups.

 

I'm using my mind (Mental) to project a physical almost real object (Physical). You'd disallow that simply because I've stated my point of origin is my Mental Power Suite?

 

How about if I'm using my mind to force a physical blast at the target instead (Energy Blast: PD).

 

I can come up with all sorts of Mental Powers whose Mental SFX are the Point Of Origin being the Characters Mental Capability (Psionics if you want) and do nothing but affect the Physical World. Which you've stated you'd explicitely deny.

 

Did I?

 

It would depend on the overall SFX of the character.

 

Again, what started all this was a power build that I consider the illusions equivalent of an NND or AVLD Does Body RKA. A build that might work as a sort of "Telekinetic Optical Illusion", but that usually appears on characters with no other hint of that kind of power.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

I think the idea and concept of reapplying the rules and powers beyond the explicit "intent" is part of the fun of the system.

 

There are those that do it for some "edge" in the game, perhaps driven by a need to "win" or simply be "better"

 

There are those that do it simply because what they have in mind can't be easily replicated with everything "as is" because the creators of the Game never will think of everything everyone will want

 

There are those that do it just to do it

 

There are those that do it because they are looking to achieve a given Mechanical outcome within a set of SFX that don't always work well together, but can in some occasions

 

nothing is applicable to all games, settings, groups, genres, ideas, concepts, systems, positions, et cetera...

 

That's WHY some of us keep coming back - it's a system of ever expanding ideas and applications of those ideas. I want to stop being able to reapply the rules I'll go back to DnD where every new concept requires a new rule.

 

I have no trouble at all coming up with character concepts that are either outlawed outright or so awkward or expensive to construct that the character must violate some rule or exceed the points available or be totally useless in game play. If the rules get more specific on SFX, I am likely to find greater difficulty in creating a legal character. I like the current amount of fuzziness in SFX vs mechanics interactions.

 

Now that I think about it, the places where I like 5th ed (FRED) over 4th are where it adds flexibility, such as the expansion of Change Environment or Life Support, but I dislike several places where it becomes more rigid or far more expensive. (40 ap used to get you all the shapeshift there was, but it buys a lot less now.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

The target's perception of the world takes place in their brain and sensory organs. Claiming a mental SFX for a power and then building it to entirely circumvent the target's EGO' date=' Mental Defense, etc, is no different from building a brick's punch as a BOECV Drain BODY so that it entirely circumvents the target's DCV, Armor, etc.[/quote']

 

I'd want to look at what the power actually is mean to do.

 

1. Using mental telekinetic energy it reflects and diffracts light to create apparently solid images you can see - psionic sfx but no reason to have psionic defences

 

2. Using mental telepathic energy it influences the brain by implanting memories in the short term visual memory making it appear that there is an object being seen - seems clearly to be psionic sfx but it works telepathically so it needs some limitations/advantages - won't work against machines, BOECV etc

 

3. Using electrical energy the power induces a reponse in the optic nerve or video feed (for machines) to make it seem like it is transmitting an image of something - clearly non-psionic origin, but mind affecting - you COULD allow mental defecnes of some sort or just say it doesn't work if you have insulation to electricity...

 

However you build a power the important thing to me is that the sfx, the power, and the in-game effect do not cause conflict. It is FINE to have a psionic power that is based on straight images with no advantages or limitations, so long as the sfx explain how it works and it is not a shot at getting added utility from the power.

 

 

Thing is we are making all this up, and what is reasonable for one may not be for another. So long as the player and GM are both happy that they know how the power is meant to work and everyone is happy that an appropriate amount of points was paid for it, it is all good.

[Lucius]

Re: Mechanics vs. SFX... Where is the line?

 

Example: DCV is the existing mechanic for 'hard to hit'. To become harder to hit, one normally buys up their DCV through higher DEX or Levels. That is the default, clear mechanic. However, one could also use the HERO rules to buy Desolidification defined as 'super dodge/hard to hit' with some Limitations not allowing the character to pass through solid objects or spaces the character could not normally fit through.

.

 

For what it’s worth, I hate this (pardon the expression) “dodge.”

 

Being Desolid doesn’t mean an attack doesn’t hit; it means the attack hits, passes right through your body like so much smoke, and does no damage. It's basically a special effect for invulnerability.

 

But if someone DOES use Desolid as a superdodge, I’m afraid not all of your concerns are valid:

 

With this power active, the character is impossible to be hit, regardless of the attacker's OCV, bypassing the default mechanic. Possible unintended consequences and odd interactions include - character is also immune to Area Effect attacks, .

 

No, they’re not. Desolid must specify some forms of attack that still hit, and if you’re defining it as a superdodge, Area Effect and Explosion BETTER be on the list of powers that still effect you. You’re special effect is basically “any attack that can miss, does.” These are powers that CAN’T miss.

 

On the other hand, it DOES make you immune to “1 hex Accurate.” And selective and nonselective effects.

 

which normally could not be dodged, character can be affected normally by attacks with the "Affects Desolid" Advantage, even if the character could normally easily 'super dodge' all other attacks made by the same attacker. .

 

Now, this one is true, as far as I see, and creates a weird situation. Perhaps a good enough reason to disallow this “superdodge” as not making sense.

 

Knowing this, another character buys an attack with the "Affects Desolid" Advantage, defined as 'super accurate' specifically so he can affect characters with a 'super dodge' Desolidification power. Somehow though, this 'super accurate' attack interacts normally with the target's DCV, not having any inherent bonus to OCV. It also allows him to affect characters whose Desolidification was bought with another effect, such as 'lowered density' or 'ghost form', neither of which would probably be affected based on a 'super accurate' attack.

.

 

If you’re defining an attack as “super accurate” to get by the “super dodge” then you’re not buying the +1/2 Affects Desolid, you’re getting the +1/4 version that’s limited by special effect – in this case, special effect, superdodge. So, no hitting ghosts with it. And if it bothers you that it “interacts normally with target’s DCV” just require him to also buy “1 hex accurate” and maybe some skill levels. If a player wants a power with a certain special effect, you have every right to expect him to buy the power so it accurately (pardon the expression again) reflects that special effect.

 

This is not to say that you definitely should not construct a power a certain way. However, each change or bypassing of the default mechanics inherent in HERO will have a ripple effect that you should think about before creating a character with an unusual construct or approving that character for your game.

 

Absolutely true. And well worth repeating.

 

EDIT:

This bears repeating too.

 

Thing is we are making all this up, and what is reasonable for one may not be for another. So long as the player and GM are both happy that they know how the power is meant to work and everyone is happy that an appropriate amount of points was paid for it, it is all good.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary quotes the Supreme Serpent:

This is not to say that you definitely should not construct a power a certain way. However, each change or bypassing of the default mechanics inherent in HERO will have a ripple effect that you should think about before creating a character with an unusual construct or approving that character for your game.