Resizing Weapons & Armor

[Kirowan]

The weapons and armor listed in FRed are obviously sized for medium characters. What book contains info about resizing weapons and armor for characters of different size?

 

Thanks,

 

Nick

[John Desmarais]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

The weapons and armor listed in FRed are obviously sized for medium characters. What book contains info about resizing weapons and armor for characters of different size?

 

Thanks,

 

Nick

I'm not remembering anything specific, but my guess is that if it's anywhere it's in Fantasy Hero (and maybe the Hero System Equipment Guide).

[Rapier]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

The weapons and armor listed in FRed are obviously sized for medium characters. What book contains info about resizing weapons and armor for characters of different size?

 

What specifically do you need to know?

 

Weight?

 

Weight is about the only thing that would change with size. Brigandine is always going to give the same DEF, regardless if a giant is wearing it or a hobbit.

[Kirowan]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

What specifically do you need to know?

 

Weight?

 

Weight is about the only thing that would change with size. Brigandine is always going to give the same DEF, regardless if a giant is wearing it or a hobbit.

 

Weight, damage changes, reach changes, handedness changes.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

Weight: adjust as appropriate - the System has no say in this regards and leaves it up to the Game

DCs: I would come up with a scale for the Game and increase it appropriately, possibly 1-2DCs a size category.

Reach: Part of this will be in the reach of the larger creature, part in the size model of the weapon, there are Reach Advantages, look into those.

Handedness: Entirely up to the GM, I see no reason impose any mechanic on this beyond Dramatic Sense. STR Min can help along these lines.

[Solomon]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

For weight, I'd keep it proportional to body weight, so a suit of plate for a 4-meter Giant would weight eight times as much as an an equivalent man-sized suit. Same for weapons.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

What specifically do you need to know?

 

Weight?

 

Weight is about the only thing that would change with size. Brigandine is always going to give the same DEF, regardless if a giant is wearing it or a hobbit.

 

Why?

I understand why folk say that for each doubling of height you get x8 mass. That's because you are doubling all three dimensions, which in the case of a suit of armor means its not only bigger, but also proportionately thicker. Why wouldn't Brigandine made with 6 gauge plates not be tougher than one made with 12 gauge ones?

Always wondered about the logic of that one.

 

And to the O/P's question... John was right, its in FH (at least for weapons).

P 153. Don't expect to be happy with the answers offered tho. the Larger sized weapon rules, as presented, VERY effectively gimp larger characters in Heroic level games.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

Why?

I understand why folk say that for each doubling of height you get x8 mass. That's because you are doubling all three dimensions, which in the case of a suit of armor means its not only bigger, but also proportionately thicker. Why wouldn't Brigandine made with 6 gauge plates not be tougher than one made with 12 gauge ones?

Always wondered about the logic of that one.

 

And to the O/P's question... John was right, its in FH (at least for weapons).

P 153. Don't expect to be happy with the answers offered tho. the Larger sized weapon rules, as presented, VERY effectively gimp larger characters in Heroic level games.

For one thing it is easier to break things that are longer. Imagine trying to break in half a toothpick. Now imagine trying to break in half a toothpick that is ten feet long but has the same thickness (actually such a toothpick might very well break under its own weight!). Pure force of impact isn't the only factor that determines the, "strength," of an object; the effective torque generated due to the dimensions of an object is if anything more important.

 

Now metal is malleable so the mental image isn't quite as easy, but the phenomonon is still there. A larger plate needs to be thicker just to maintain, "the same strength."

 

Often what engineers speak of is an object or material's, "strength-to-weight," ratio. Strength is generally proportional to cross-sectional area, and weight is proportional to volume. Take an object and scale it up equally in all dimensions and its strength-to-weight ratio goes down (it is effectively, "less strong"). That is why in biology you can't simply take a mouse and scale it up to the size of an elephant; its bones would snap under its own weight. It is also why very small creatures can fall a great distance and not get hurt (ever seen a squirrel fall out of a tree, then get up and run off as if it were nothing? I have). The same thing applies to the strength of inanimate objects.

[Steve Long]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

Fantasy Hero itself does, at least with regard to weapons -- see FH 153. The same information is in the Equipment Guide.

[Zed-F]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

You don't necessarily want the brigandine to weigh 8 times as much. Note that you can only carry twice as much weight around for each doubling in size. That would mean that the brigandine would actually have to be thinner (i.e. weaker) if you are bigger, in order for you to be able to wear it around all the time in the first place.

[Solomon]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

For one thing it is easier to break things that are longer. Imagine trying to break in half a toothpick. Now imagine trying to break in half a toothpick that is ten feet long but has the same thickness (actually such a toothpick might very well break under its own weight!). Pure force of impact isn't the only factor that determines the, "strength," of an object; the effective torque generated due to the dimensions of an object is if anything more important.

 

Now metal is malleable so the mental image isn't quite as easy, but the phenomonon is still there. A larger plate needs to be thicker just to maintain, "the same strength."

 

Often what engineers speak of is an object or material's, "strength-to-weight," ratio. Strength is generally proportional to cross-sectional area, and weight is proportional to volume. Take an object and scale it up equally in all dimensions and its strength-to-weight ratio goes down (it is effectively, "less strong"). That is why in biology you can't simply take a mouse and scale it up to the size of an elephant; its bones would snap under its own weight. It is also why very small creatures can fall a great distance and not get hurt (ever seen a squirrel fall out of a tree, then get up and run off as if it were nothing? I have). The same thing applies to the strength of inanimate objects.

 

Of course real-world physics might or might not be of concern in any given campaign, let alone a Fantasy one. I'm not arguing pro or against scaling Armor DEF - just saying that I would base such a choice mostly on game balance. HERO is a game, not an engineering treatise.

If the need to scale Armor DEF is felt, I'd use +/-2 DEF per Size step as a general rule of thumb. This is consistent with wall thickness (+2 DEF per doubling) and Real Armor weight rules (x2 weight for every +2 DEF).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

For one thing it is easier to break things that are longer. Imagine trying to break in half a toothpick. Now imagine trying to break in half a toothpick that is ten feet long but has the same thickness (actually such a toothpick might very well break under its own weight!). Pure force of impact isn't the only factor that determines the, "strength," of an object; the effective torque generated due to the dimensions of an object is if anything more important.

 

Now metal is malleable so the mental image isn't quite as easy, but the phenomonon is still there. A larger plate needs to be thicker just to maintain, "the same strength."

 

Often what engineers speak of is an object or material's, "strength-to-weight," ratio. Strength is generally proportional to cross-sectional area, and weight is proportional to volume. Take an object and scale it up equally in all dimensions and its strength-to-weight ratio goes down (it is effectively, "less strong"). That is why in biology you can't simply take a mouse and scale it up to the size of an elephant; its bones would snap under its own weight. It is also why very small creatures can fall a great distance and not get hurt (ever seen a squirrel fall out of a tree, then get up and run off as if it were nothing? I have). The same thing applies to the strength of inanimate objects.

 

Everything you just said is true, and in proper context is a wonderful arguement... But I can't believe you just busted out strength to weight ratio's and (by implication) the square/cube law in a discussion of 4 frickin meter tall fantasy giants. Which are admittedly on the do-able side of the size scale, looking at the megafauna we've seen from the past... but anything that size (or bigger) is gonna be ever less human like in proportions. and more rubber science.

That wasn't intended as a snap, BTW... I just found it amusing.

 

As I see it, unless the giant types lack the technology to produce their own weapons and armor, their equipment is going to fufill the same roles and function as human scale equipment, in reference to themselves.

 

That is to say, a 2m tall human in full plate with a greatsword should be approximately the same to another 2m human as a 4m giant with the same gear will be to another 4 m giant. Which means that when the human meets his giant counterpart, the human will have the disadvantage in reach, damage, and damage resistance, because the giant sized gear, in order for it to exist at all, will have already factored in the considerations you have raised and thus will be corespondingly thicker/stronger/bigger. If it wasn't possible for skill and technological advances to compensate for the size-to-strength issues we never would have developed plate armor in the first place. Bear in mind that giants on the same technological footing as similar humans would have the advantage of greater striking force (short of a human scale hammer mill)and (potentially) higher heat levels due to industial sized bellows.

 

Anyway... rather than ignoring it the way the rules currently favor, I'd reccomend adding +1 def per level on the growth chart for larger sized armors... this fits in well with the x2 mass = +1 Body = +1DC = x2 damage model that, like it or not, is currently one of the cornerstones of the system.

This would make armor for a 4 meter tall giant at a +3 Def for its X8 Mass. This helps without rendering Giant sized foes unbeatable. They are already missing the majority of the advantages to being huge, according the the common write ups... no need to punk them any more than they already are.

For the same reason I'd go with the +1DC = +5 STR Min for oversized weapons, to avoid punking them.

 

my $.02

[Solomon]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

You don't necessarily want the brigandine to weigh 8 times as much. Note that you can only carry twice as much weight around for each doubling in size. That would mean that the brigandine would actually have to be thinner (i.e. weaker) if you are bigger' date=' in order for you to be able to wear it around all the time in the first place.[/quote']

 

I assume that by "doubling of size" most posters mean doubling of linear (ie height) size, that is x8 body mass, +15 STR and x8 carrying capacity.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

Of course real-world physics might or might not be of concern in any given campaign, let alone a Fantasy one. I'm not arguing pro or against scaling Armor DEF - just saying that I would base such a choice mostly on game balance. HERO is a game, not an engineering treatise.

If the need to scale Armor DEF is felt, I'd use +/-2 DEF per Size step as a general rule of thumb. This is consistent with wall thickness (+2 DEF per doubling) and Real Armor weight rules (x2 weight for every +2 DEF).

Even better.

I didn't bother checking the books, so I went with the default Body Comparison. I forgot that the thickness & weight doublings for defence already in the system were already +2=x2

[Grail Quest]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

The weapons and armor listed in FRed are obviously sized for medium characters. What book contains info about resizing weapons and armor for characters of different size?

 

Thanks,

 

Nick

 

For melee weapons used in hand-to-hand attacks, a scaled up weapon has the same stats, except the focus (i.e., the item) is bigger.

 

For example, if a Club does 3d6N for a human, it means the weapon gives a +3 DC advantage.

A giant's Club would still give a +3 DC advantage for a giant, because DC is not a linear measurement (and we haven't even gotten into even crude physics of weapon swings yet).

You really only need to stat things out when, for example, a human tries to use a giant-sized Short Sword. Consider: A Club for a halfling is virtually worthless to a giant, for example, because it is so small that, for example, it cannot be used in a typical club-like fashion to swing, and its contribution by mass is too small relative to the giant's STR. OTOH, a human's Club used by a halfling would give slightly more than a +3 DC advantage for the halfling, BUT whether the halfling can properly wield it or not is another matter (and not meant to be a game-balancing issue, just a reality issue).

 

I have a fuller discussion in my House Rules: http://www.freewebs.com/d20elements/herosystem.htm

[knightguard]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

I have a character that is 4 meters tall. The race is called golemian.

 

 

 

The character i can post onto this site.

 

 

Have fun all

[prestidigitator]

Re: Resizing Weapons & Armor

 

Everything you just said is true, and in proper context is a wonderful arguement... But I can't believe you just busted out strength to weight ratio's and (by implication) the square/cube law in a discussion of 4 frickin meter tall fantasy giants. Which are admittedly on the do-able side of the size scale, looking at the megafauna we've seen from the past... but anything that size (or bigger) is gonna be ever less human like in proportions. and more rubber science.

That wasn't intended as a snap, BTW... I just found it amusing.

...

Hah! Caught me. Rep.

 

I found it amusing to post it, too. It is very convenient to stick to realistic physical principles whenever it suits me, and ignore them if they get in the way of creating something I want in my gaming universe, like giants. Every now and then I might feel a pang of guilt that lasts a millisecond or two, but if I were really worried about realism I could give giants, "higher bone density," or some such thing (I could even reflect it with Density Increase, but that might be going overboard). The hypocracy is never wasted. It is just part of the fun.