Top Down Bottom Up

[SSJ Archon]

I have recently watched the Extended DUNE, as well as Akira and several other very cool movies, and I wanted to create a Fantasy setting with magic in a somewhat similar manner.

In this world, magic is dangerous and hard to control, but incredible powerful. It is not divided up into healing magics and so on, in this world, all magic operates by changing the fundamental laws of the universe, i.e. Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong and Weak Nuclear Forces. With magic you can change them, add some, or remove all of them. What makes magic so dangerous is that by tweaking one little thing, you could for example disassemble all the atoms in the universe.

Everyone ALREADY has ultimate power in this setting. What seperates a powerful wizard and an apprentice is not there power, but the degree of control they possess.

 

So, Should I us Side Effects off of failed Power Rolls?

How do I model such power without everyone having 5000 point VPP's? Perhaps I should give them such VPP's, but it won't matter because to do something so powerful, the target number of the roll will be off the charts, and this gives me the points to discribe how they end the universe.

 

How would go about it?

HERO is the only System I would dare attempt this in.

[SSJ Archon]

Re: Top Down Bottom Up

 

Just had a thought. Perhaps a Megascaled AOE (Size of Universe) Dimensional Movement to Empty Universe with such and such Fundamental Laws?

 

Kinda Cheesy... But It may work.

Still looking for help on this one.

[austenandrews]

Re: Top Down Bottom Up

 

Just call it Side Effects: Plot Device. I'm not sure you could tweak the forces even a tiny bit without drastic calamity ensuing. Maybe the EM component of electroweak.

[prestidigitator]

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Just one question. What's to keep a particularly depressed villain from playing with magic in his or her basement until the universe implodes? Even your average joe could do that, right, and the less control the, "better?"

[BNakagawa]

Re: Top Down Bottom Up

 

The concept is interesting enough, but the logistics are a nightmare.

 

It's like you're all given root access to a mainframe. Even the n00bs who are prone to doing things like deleting the system directories to make more room for pr0n. It'd be like one re-boot after another, 24/7. And that's without anyone maliciously WANTING the thing to self-destruct.

[Trained Chicken]

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How interesting, that's exactly how I like my womens.

[csyphrett]

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It sounds like everyone has Transform to work the magic system. If all powers are transforms and transform special effects, maybe activation and skill rolls would be the way to go.

 

Personally I would think you would be more likely to blow yourself up before you blew up a whole universe.

CES

[SSJ Archon]

Re: Top Down Bottom Up

 

There is one limit that keeps someone from just annilating the universe.

Out, deep in the reaches of the nether voids, across time and space, beyond truth and logic, lie beings who have such great power with magic that they are often called, Gods.

Whether they used to be mages, or they have always existed, few can be sure, but while they care little for localized tamperings of the laws of physics, they do have a survival instinct and will not allow truely destructive magics of more than a few hundred miles. Now, if you can defeat them and overcome them, your welcome to try.

 

Also, while everyone has the potential to perform magic, it takes great patience and learning to understand how to inact your will upon the fundaments of the universe. Not just any one can do it. Now, any apprentice with just enough training to get his hand in the fire, but not enough to pull it out again...

[Bloodstone]

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There's a 2 Live Crew joke somewhere in this thread title, but I don't know that the language filter would let me make it...

[Basil]

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Side Effects is definitely recommended.

Side Effect, 90 Active Points or the Active Points in the Power, whichever is greater, Side Effect affects character and environment, -1 3/4

 

Standard Side Effect (use unless something else is much more appropriate):

Xd6 EB, Explosion (+1/2), No Range (-1/2)

 

Remember, the size of the Side Effect depends on the Active Points, so figure it with the +1/2 from Explosion figured in.

[Doc Tough]

Re: Top Down Bottom Up

 

Doc sez...

 

Again this seems to be aproblem with modeling the results. Everyone might have a VPP. This represents the amount of safe control an User has over things. The Masters have big VPPs while apprentices have smaller ones.

Side Effect is mandatory equal to the pints in the VPP, perhaps even more if the GM perhaps a tweaking of the LIM to allow for x2, x3, or even x10 the AP of the VPP to be used in whatever effect the GM wants on a flubbed Control Roll or whatever. When Apprentices screw-up it can be bad, but not campaign ending...if a powerful Master botches...kiss your *** goodbye.

 

Doc Tough

[mallet]

Re: Top Down Bottom Up

 

I wouldn't make it a "power" at all. I would make the ability to tap into the "magic" a talent (a really expensive talent if you do not want all of the players to have it).

 

Then just make a "control power" that the character puts points and experience points into. This could be used like a skill for controling the magic. The more they make their "control roll" by the better their control. The more they fail it by, the more wild and uncontroled the effect is.

 

All you need to do it work out how much effect/damage each level of success or failure does (maybe use the indirect/missed target/area of effect rules as guide lines).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Top Down Bottom Up

 

If you really want to put it into system terms, I would probably define it as an infinitely (or very large if you prefer) Cosmic Everyman VPP, with a Power Skill RSR and Side Effects common to all Powers in the pool and possibly other common Limitations defined by your concept of the magic system. There might be some, "required," Advantages on all Powers too, like perhaps Reduced End Cost, but that stuff is totaly at your whim.

 

For the Required Skill Roll, you could work it two ways: either the character chooses the Active Points in the Power and then rolls, and failure results in the (probably GM-determined) Side Effects, or the character chooses the structure of the power (the Powers and optional Modifiers being used) and the result of the RSR roll determines the Active Points (this could result in some reduction in the value of the RSR Limitation, but who cares, since the Real Points don't have to be paid for anyway?). With the second choice, the Side Effects could occur simply at GM discretion, if the natural die roll is low enough (3-5 maybe), if another common Limitation such as a second RSR or an Activation Roll fails, if the RSR roll is too low to meet the first increment of a variable cost Power or the value of a fixed value Power (e.g. 40 Active Points for a vanilla Desolidification), and/or some other criteria.

 

To encourage the use of Limitations you might modify the RSR roll based upon the value of Limitations used or the Real Points in the power (of course usually it is based on the Active Points alone). For example, you might give a +1 to the RSR roll for every full -1/2 in Limitations on the Power, or you might base the RSR penalty/allocation on the sum of the Active Points and Real Points. For slots ("spells," if you like) with multiple (Linked) Powers, I probably wouldn't require multiple RSR rolls; instead simply add together all the penalties (and/or distribute the Active Points in a proportional or non-proportional manner as appropriate for the power and chosen by the character), or take the largest and add some fraction (e.g. half) the penalties for the other Powers.

 

This approach will also give you the choice of requiring some kind of skill roll to allocate the Power in the VPP to begin with if you like. This could easily be a magic KS or something (and could even require an appropriate amount of research, a ritual, training, etc.). Since the VPP is, "infinitely," large, once allocated the character could then simply, "know," the spell, or you could rule that all/some VPP points become unallocated over a period of time (or at specific times, like, "between scenes").

[DangerousDan]

Re: Top Down Bottom Up

 

I have recently watched the Extended DUNE, as well as Akira and several other very cool movies, and I wanted to create a Fantasy setting with magic in a somewhat similar manner..

.

.

.

Everyone ALREADY has ultimate power in this setting. What seperates a powerful wizard and an apprentice is not there power, but the degree of control they possess.

 

So, Should I us Side Effects off of failed Power Rolls?

How do I model such power without everyone having 5000 point VPP's? Perhaps I should give them such VPP's, but it won't matter because to do something so powerful, the target number of the roll will be off the charts, and this gives me the points to discribe how they end the universe.

 

How would go about it?

HERO is the only System I would dare attempt this in.

 

How do you model Air, Food, Water? They are simply part of the environment. What you describe is also part of the environment. If it helps, you can think of it as an infinite point VPP that is Independant, and useable by everyone at the same time. Forget the point value because you, the GM, have paid for this power, and you have whatever number of points needed to create the environment. Forget even that there is no game mechanic to have a VPP useable by an unlimited number of users. Create an arbitrary game mechanic that does what you want in this setting.

 

I would definitely (if I were using such a plot device) use Side Effects for failed uses of the Power. Don't feel limited to the three levels of Side Effects listed. You could have 0 points or 100% of attempted power, whichever is greater; or 60 points or 50% of attempted power, whichever is greater; or even 137 active points or 200% of attempted power, whichever is greater. You could even have a side effect curve, where the side effect of up to A points is 50%, with + 150% of everything over A active points.

 

If you set no minimum amount of side effect, there will be many attempts at small effects. If the minimum is large, 60 points or more, a larger proportion of the attempts will be for large effects.

 

If the size of the intended effect alters the skill roll, is it -1/10, -1/20, or some other adjustment. If the skill roll becomes more difficult with bigger effects, players will tend to spend more character points on that one skill. If I were planning such a setting, I'd consider dividing powers into various categories and setting separate skills for different categories. I wouldn't necessarily do it, but I'd at least consider it. However, the more categories there are, the fewer character points are going to be spent on things other than "Control of the Universal VPP". Consider what happens with a character that sells back some characteristics to have more than 100% of his base+disads applied to "Control of the Universal VPP" skills, whether you want that, how likely it is to occur with the players you have, and how to prevent it. Think of how hideously powerful a character with a 50- skill in "Control of the Universal VPP" will be, and whether even the most powerful NPC has that much control.

 

Just a few things to think about.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Top Down Bottom Up

 

Interesting idea, and I have to concur with the others posts by and large. One other thing you might consider is that the degree of control someone has in manipulating the everyman VPP also dictates how much of it they can control. Otherwise you will have some clown with a Cosmic Skill roll of 11- trying to effect a 1000 point power, blow his roll and destroy a city. The number of active points they can actually use should be limited some way, maybe they can utilize 10 active points for every point they make an EGO roll by. Masters would have either really high EGOs or skill levels for their EGO roll (which seems appropriate to me anyway). This would allow two people trying to use the VPP simultaneously to "block" eachother's effects with an EGO vs EGO roll. Or maybe this should just be combined with the talent that allows them to manipulate the VPP in the first place. Anyway neophytes should not be able to accomplish feats as amazing as masters, so some mechanic to limit them should be in place.

 

_________________________________________________

The greatest trick the devil ever did was to convince the world he didn't exist

[prestidigitator]

Re: Top Down Bottom Up

 

Interesting idea' date=' and I have to concur with the others posts by and large. One other thing you might consider is that the degree of control someone has in manipulating the everyman VPP also dictates how much of it they can control. Otherwise you will have some clown with a Cosmic Skill roll of 11- trying to effect a 1000 point power, blow his roll and destroy a city. The number of active points they can actually use should be limited some way, maybe they can utilize 10 active points for every point they make an EGO roll by. Masters would have either really high EGOs or skill levels for their EGO roll (which seems appropriate to me anyway). This would allow two people trying to use the VPP simultaneously to "block" eachother's effects with an EGO vs EGO roll. Or maybe this should just be combined with the talent that allows them to manipulate the VPP in the first place. Anyway neophytes should not be able to accomplish feats as amazing as masters, so some mechanic to limit them should be in place.[/quote']

That's exactly what the common Requires a Skill Roll Limitation I suggested would do. Also I mentioned that a skill roll might be required to allocate the VPP slot to begin with, and such a skill roll also usually has a penalty proportional to the number of Active Points being allocated IIRC.

 

I do stand by the suggestion of modifying the roll based on Real Points or Limitation value, though, as otherwise there would be no reason to take Limitations (beyond the ones required by the magic system, both those defined as common Limitations on the pool and those that might be required by the setting for the particular [type of] spell being attempted).

 

As for the power level of the Side Effects, I would probably base it on the minimum Active Points that would have been required to bring about the desired effect (e.g. the sum of the minimum costs of all Powers in the slot or the actual Active Point value for which the character was shooting if this was known ahead of time). Each level of Side Effects also has a minimum number of Active Points; the common (minimum) Side Effects defined for the VPP or any increased level for the spell being attempted would thus give you a starting pont.