Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

[schir1964]

Regeneration: 12 Body, Extra Time (1 Hour)

Heals 12 Body Per Hour (72 Body Cumulative Per 6 Hours)

240 Active Points

64 Real Points

 

Regeneration: 1 Body, Extra Time (5 Minutes)

Heals 1 Body Per 5 Minutes (12 Body Cumulative Per 1 Hour, 72 Body Cumulative Per 6 Hours)

20 Active Points

6 Real Points

 

Shouldn't these cost the same, or even shouldn't the second power actually cost more than the first, since you get the benefit of healing sooner?

 

Just An Oddity

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Bloodstone]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

 

I am thinking you have a typo in that very first line...

 

and yes, it is odd.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

It is odd but it has always beent hat way, even before regeneration changed.

 

You could just buy the second version and further limit with (only heals on the hour (-1/2)) which would make it cheaper, rather than starting with a higher active points total (which is where the problem lies).

 

Maybe.

[Boulder]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

I don't think that Hero was too worried about healing body to much, since it is really hard to do body, especially if you have a little resistant defences.

 

Like for instants to bricks going at it, both have 60 str and both have PD's of 30, One guy gets knocked out and the victor keeps Haymakering the guy in the head 12d6 + 4d6 = 16d6, now thats about 16 body x it bye 2 and it equals 32, now unless the guy getting pounded has low body it will take forever to kill him, unless you have a house rule that says a chacter takes body after he goes negative so much, but I am rambling.

 

Regeneration starts to loose it purpose if you buy that much on that time frame, if you lost that much body and need to regenerate it than I think you are in the wrong system.....lol

[schir1964]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

 

I am thinking you have a typo in that very first line...

 

and yes, it is odd.

Checked and rechecked. Caught it finally. Corrected. Thanks.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Black Rose]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

Regeneration: 12 Body' date=' Extra Time (1 Hour)[/u']

Heals 12 Body Per Hour (72 Body Cumulative Per 6 Hours)

240 Active Points

64 Real Points

 

Regeneration: 1 Body, Extra Time (5 Minutes)

Heals 1 Body Per 5 Minutes (12 Body Cumulative Per 1 Hour, 72 Body Cumulative Per 6 Hours)

20 Active Points

6 Real Points

 

Shouldn't these cost the same, or even shouldn't the second power actually cost more than the first, since you get the benefit of healing sooner?

 

Just An Oddity

 

- Christopher Mullins

Two things.

 

One, Regen Version II (1 BODY/5 minutes) is a lot easier to Dispel/Drain/Supress than Regen Version I (12 BODY/hour).

 

Two, I'd personally rule that you could make Regen Version I Work at the 1 BODY/5 minutes rate if you so desired. In fact, I'd look at you oddly if you bought it this way in the first place.

[schir1964]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

Two things.

 

One, Regen Version II (1 BODY/5 minutes) is a lot easier to Dispel/Drain/Supress than Regen Version I (12 BODY/hour).

 

Two, I'd personally rule that you could make Regen Version I Work at the 1 BODY/5 minutes rate if you so desired. In fact, I'd look at you oddly if you bought it this way in the first place.

Yes, the GM has the option to apportion the body in increments, but that wasn't the question.

Why are two powers bought two different legitimate ways so far off in cost to one another?

Technically, per the rules, the more expensive one is required to be taken. Although I think most GMs scoff at that ruling.

 

The only rational purpose of being able to purchase more body would only be for the Per Turn version of the power.

 

1 Body Per Turn

5 Body Per Minute

100 Body Per 20 Minutes

300 Body Per 1 Hour

1800 Body Per 6 Hours

7200 Body Per Day

50400 Body Per Week

201600 Body Per Month

604800 Body Per Season

2419200 Body Per Year

 

Something mathmatically is not right here.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Vondy]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

Although I think most GMs scoff at that ruling.

 

 

I scoff at its general direction.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

Technically' date=' per the rules, the more expensive one is required to be taken. Although I think most GMs scoff at that ruling.[/quote']

 

Actually, the rule is that if the two constructs are "equally valid ways to create a particular ability", you must use the more expensive (Metarule #6). This should, IMO, be read in conjunction with Metarule #4 , "The point cost of a power should support game balance".

 

In this instance, I question whether the two approaches are equally valid. Even if they are Metarule 6 and 4 are placed in conflict. In my view, game balance should trump "equally valid ways to create the same power". If it doesn't, no more Ego Attacks or BOECV, since it's much more costly to build these with advantaged Energy Blasts.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

Hugh beat me to it - but these aren't equally valid powers. They're two different powers that have the same net effect.

 

Unless you're using proportional Healing (which is an Optional rule for Healing) the second one acts faster than the first.

 

and ... all of what Hugh said.

(You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hugh Neilson again. darn.)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

I would agree that these two are not equally valid. Take for instance the point that Black Rose made, that the first example is more difficult to Dispel/Drain/ect. The valid method of making something more difficult to Dispel/Drain is to put Difficult To Dispell on it, not buy more of the Power with a Limitation. Since that's the only functional difference between the two, the first must be invalid.

[schir1964]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

I would agree that these two are not equally valid. Take for instance the point that Black Rose made' date=' that the first example is more difficult to Dispel/Drain/ect. The valid method of making something more difficult to Dispel/Drain is to put Difficult To Dispell on it, not buy more of the Power with a Limitation. Since that's the only functional difference between the two, the first must be invalid.[/quote']

Since Steve Long has never specified any odd conditions on what is considered a "Valid Build", one can only presume a "Valid Build" would be one that is built using the rules as written.

 

So in that sense, both Powers I wrote in the initial post are "Valid Builds".

Obviously the aren't equal in utility since I actually stated the minor difference between them. But the point is that at the Hour Mark, they both end up with the same result in game play, so I was pointing out that the drastic cost difference between them definately points to something being wrong somewhere.

 

Out of curiosity, I just have to ask...

Do you apply this requirement, Two Builds that do the same thing but have different Active Points automatically means that one is an "Invalid Build"?

 

Does anyone else use this criteria to determine if one of two powers is an "Invalid Build"?

 

But I fully understand that everyone has their own way to determine what a "Valid Build" is, and since both these powers use the same mechanic with differing legal Advantages/Limitations that it would seem to suggest that this is as close as you can get to comparing to powers on the same scale.

 

Now as far as the Active Points goes, any power can achieve high Active Points from various methods, so I don't see that as being a criteria for whether they are "Valid Builds" or not, but it does highlight the difference between them as side effect of the differing Advantages/Limitations used.

 

Hugh has brought up the "Metarules" which I am familiar with through discussions, but are they actually written down as "Metarules" somewhere? Could be something I've overlooked or forgotten about.

 

Ghost Angel has mentioned Healing, but my builds are using the Regeneration Rules of Healing not Healing itself, so I'm not sure what his point is.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Shike019]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

Regeneration: 12 Body' date=' Extra Time (1 Hour)[/u']

Heals 12 Body Per Hour (72 Body Cumulative Per 6 Hours)

240 Active Points

64 Real Points

 

Regeneration: 1 Body, Extra Time (5 Minutes)

Heals 1 Body Per 5 Minutes (12 Body Cumulative Per 1 Hour, 72 Body Cumulative Per 6 Hours)

20 Active Points

6 Real Points

 

Shouldn't these cost the same, or even shouldn't the second power actually cost more than the first, since you get the benefit of healing sooner?

 

Just An Oddity

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

What would happen if you added "Gradual Effect" to the first one. THat would make it act as the second. (wouldn't it??)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

My view is that neither build is invalid, but the first build is just not how you'd do it. i would not stop a player from having the first build although I would warn them that it is an inefficient build, but a the end of the day its their points.

 

The meta-rules are in FRED and 5ER. P348 in FRED, have to look up the 5ER reference when i get home.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

4d6 Body healing (standard effect) 40 points improved reiteration (apply 12 points of effect/6 BODY once per hour) +1/2 and 0 END persistent for 100 points

 

Self only -1/2

Always on -1/2

 

50 points.

 

That ties in better with the first build, point wise. mind you there are more efficeint ways

 

Or 1d6 Body healing (standard effect) 10 points improved reitereation (apply once per turn +1 1/2 0 END persistent for 35 points, self only always on, or about 225 Body per hour.

 

17 points.

 

IMO the second build is how it **should** be done, and never mind that mullarkey with how it is currently being done.

 

In fact does anyone know of the top of their head, what standard effect is for 1/2d6? Assuming it is 2 (and I've a feeling it might be)

 

1/2d6 Body healing (2 point standard effect) 5 points

Improved reiteration (per turn) +1 1/2

o END persistent +1

 

Total cost 17 points

 

Self only always on -1

 

Real cost 8 points.

 

Cool.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

 

Or 1d6 Body healing (standard effect) 10 points improved reitereation (apply once per turn +1 1/2 0 END persistent for 35 points, self only always on, or about 225 Body per hour.

Hey look everybody...

It's Sean's 35!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

Hey look everybody...

It's Sean's 35!

 

 

You're funny

 

Anyway I forgot 'continous' so that should have been a bit more: 1 BODY/turn works out at 11 points. Not bad.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

Since Steve Long has never specified any odd conditions on what is considered a "Valid Build", one can only presume a "Valid Build" would be one that is built using the rules as written.

 

So in that sense, both Powers I wrote in the initial post are "Valid Builds".

Obviously the aren't equal in utility since I actually stated the minor difference between them. But the point is that at the Hour Mark, they both end up with the same result in game play, so I was pointing out that the drastic cost difference between them definately points to something being wrong somewhere.

 

Out of curiosity, I just have to ask...

Do you apply this requirement, Two Builds that do the same thing but have different Active Points automatically means that one is an "Invalid Build"?

 

That's not the method I used. To determine if a build is valid or not, I apply the same guideline that is used for Change Envionment and Transform: No game mechanic shall be forced or modified in such a way that it mimics or replicated an already existing game mechanic. Since the only difference between your two builds is that one is more difficult to Dispel, that one is invalid because the mechanic that does that is Difficult To Dispel.

 

Another way of looking at it is that it's invalid for the same reason an EB BOECV IPE (Sight & Hearing Groups) is invalid. It does the exact same thing as an Ego Attack. If you put the two together, you'll see that the Modified EB costs more, but the Ego Attack is the correct mechanic to use because it's the only one valid between the two. It's the same way with your Regen builds.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

On a related note, I have a certain way of looking at Regeneration specifically.

 

This starts with 4th edition Regeneration, which you simply bought 1 BODY/Turn Regen for 10 points, +1 BODY per 10 points and you could move the entire regen rate down the time chart for a -1/4 Limitation per step.

 

They way I always looked at this was that if you wanted Regen you started by buying the base cost: 10 points for 1 BODY per Turn. If you wanted faster Regen, you'd buy +1 BODY/Turn for 10 points each. If you wanted slower Regen, you'd instead start applying the Limitation. You'd never do both because it didn't make sense. Why would anyone try to buy "faster Regen that took longer"?

 

The same, I believe, applied in 5th editions version of Regen. It requires more Modifiers to build it not matter which way you look at it though. Basically, you start with your 1 BODY per Turn, and if you want to regen faster, you buy more dice/body of healing. If you want to regen slower, you increase the Increased Time Limitation. You never do both because doing so is simultaneously buying faster and slower regen, which contradicts itself. Because of that, any build that does so will automatically cause problems when compared to one that doesn't.

[schir1964]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

What would happen if you added "Gradual Effect" to the first one. THat would make it act as the second. (wouldn't it??)

I almost posted a power using the Gradual Effect limitation as a comparison, but it works in the opposite direction. It increases the time frame and the effect is automatically apportioned over that time. The chart limitation values would have to be completely redone like the Extra Time limitations were, just for Regeneration.

 

It could be a solution, but you have to create a brand new set of values to make it consistent. If you think it can, feel free to post your examples here.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

Ghost Angel has mentioned Healing' date=' but my builds are using the Regeneration Rules of Healing not Healing itself, so I'm not sure what his point is.[/quote']

The Proportional Rules apply to Regeneration which is a form of Healing.

 

My point was... unless you use that Rule, build2 starts healing earlier.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

One thing that distinguishes the builds is that the one is much harder to drain than the other. OK you can buy Difficult to Dispel, but that has no effect on other adjustment powers. In the bizarre circumstance that was what you were after you could buy it: but I think it would still be daft, and I can think of much more efficient ways of doing it (a limited version of damage reduction would be a lot cheaper, for instance)

[schir1964]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

The Proportional Rules apply to Regeneration which is a form of Healing.

 

My point was... unless you use that Rule, build2 starts healing earlier.

I'm still not getting this "Proportional" thing.

 

Are you saying that if I purchase 12 Body Regeneration, that it automatically causes the character to regenerate 1 Body per Segment?

 

I'm going to have to some research to figure out what you mean by Proportional Rules.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: Oddity: Regeneration Configurations

 

Ghost Angel has mentioned Healing' date=' but my builds are using the Regeneration Rules of Healing not Healing itself, so I'm not sure what his point is.[/quote']The Proportional Rules apply to Regeneration which is a form of Healing.

 

My point was... unless you use that Rule, build2 starts healing earlier.

HA! Now I know which one you are (and it's as I suspected...)!