Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

[BNakagawa]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

GMs and Players should work together to create a game.

 

The subjectivity is what keeps me coming back - I have to INTERACT with those around me to create my character, the Game, the World, The Event Itself is a cooperative effort. Why should I lock myself in a closet with a bunch of limits and come out expecting to plug in like a expansion pack....

 

ptah! I spit on the rule of X.

 

Give me subjective judgement, give me interaction, give me choices and negotiations. Give me cooperation.

 

That's a great philosphy to game by...

 

...if you already know what you're doing.

 

If you're new to this game system, something like a rule of x is a good way to give a first screen to help make relatively balanced characters.

 

It's the same with character design as any art form. Learn the rules first, then learn when and why to break them.

 

But learn the rules first.

 

Just letting people play whatever they want willy nilly is a good way for people to get the impression that the hero system is broken.

[Stochastic]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

Actually, one of the characters in my campaign is a one trick pony like that. Well, two trick pony - he can fly and he can regenerate/resurrect himself. Its not that "unbalancing" to have a Johnny one shot (As they called them in gurps), because it is its own disadvantage. I think HERO is even more balanced of a system than GURPS - it takes alot more effort to create a "book legal" power that truly disrupts the game in HERO than it does in GURPS.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

Just letting people play whatever they want willy nilly is a good way for people to get the impression that the hero system is broken.

I didn't say that.

 

I said Character Creation and Game Creation were a cooperative effort between the GM and Players.

 

Where did I say "play whatever" and "don't know the rules"

 

nowhere.

 

I said work together. Get it right.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

That's a great philosphy to game by...

 

...if you already know what you're doing.

 

If you're new to this game system, something like a rule of x is a good way to give a first screen to help make relatively balanced characters.

 

It's the same with character design as any art form. Learn the rules first, then learn when and why to break them.

 

But learn the rules first.

 

Just letting people play whatever they want willy nilly is a good way for people to get the impression that the hero system is broken.

I didn't get the impression the thread starter (Phil) was talking about only using Rule of X for beginners. IMHO Rule of X is more useful for beginning GMs than it is for the players, but if all involved are familiar with the rules then the downsides of Rule of X far outweigh the upsides. It inevitably creates a cookie-cutter approach to character design which is stifling to creativity and unusual powersets.

 

How exactly does one define "balanced character" anyway? Is that a character which is on par in combat with his peers, or one who has a good blend of attack, defense, and movement abilities, or one who has a useful mix of combat and non-combat skills? Is it a balanced character when he wins exactly half of his mano a mano combats? Does a "balanced" character (whatever that is) suddenly become unbalanced when a more skilled (or less skilled) player runs him?

[Vondy]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

I tend to agree with treb on this. A Rule of X is a good way for beginning GMs to impose some balance in their games while they build experience and develop an internal sense of balance, but as you progress and start to understand the limitations of a hard Rule of X, as well as the workable exceptions to one, the Rule of X becomes unecessary and is easily set aside. Most experienced GMs have a well-developed gut-check they rely on during character reviews built on experience and system knowledge.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

I didn't say that.

 

I said Character Creation and Game Creation were a cooperative effort between the GM and Players.

 

Where did I say "play whatever" and "don't know the rules"

 

nowhere.

 

I said work together. Get it right.

 

and if neither GM and players know the rules well? what then?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

and if neither GM and players know the rules well? what then?

Well, then they can come to this site for advice or use a Rule of X (which I've already stated can be useful for beginners). Worst case is the unbalanced characters will be a learning experience for players and GM alike and will teach them how to build better characters.

 

Why are you being so snarky about this? If you like Rule of X, then use it in your campaign with my blessings. But don't waste your time sniping at those of us who don't like it.

[Vondy]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

Well, then they can come to this site for advice or use a Rule of X (which I've already stated can be useful for beginners). Worst case is the unbalanced characters will be a learning experience for players and GM alike and will teach them how to build better characters.

 

Why are you being so snarky about this? If you like Rule of X, then use it in your campaign with my blessings. But don't waste your time sniping at those of us who don't like it.

 

I think part of the problem is that we constitute, for the most part, a circle of veteran hero GMs who do not always relate well to newcomers or the issues faced by them. For us a Rule of X is an antiquated idea that lost its utility as we grew into the system. Our growing pains are behind us and we don't conjure up the memory that all was not as clear cut and cleanly defined as it is for us today. That doesn't justify snarkiness by any stretch of the imagination, but I do understand that being told by someone with a decade or more of experience with the system to forgo such a rule and conduct one's self like a seasoned game master (when one isn't) could be a trifle annoying.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

Well' date=' then they can come to this site for advice or use a Rule of X (which I've already stated can be useful for beginners). Worst case is the unbalanced characters will be a learning experience for players and GM alike and will teach them how to build better characters.[/quote']

 

It's not always that easy and many people might be put off the game without going to the trouble of coming to these forums.

 

Any Rule of X, despite its name is likely to appear in a "How to run the game" part of the book and is likely to give guidelines on how it might be used and abused.

 

I think that anything that gives landmarks for people new to this system is invaluable in helping them find their feet and become confident enough to feel their own way beyond the safe confines of the Rule of X.

 

Hero is a scary game to pick up, I remember owning the first edition for several years before I went out and tried to get people to play it...

 

Why are you being so snarky about this? If you like Rule of X' date=' then use it in your campaign with my blessings. But don't waste your time sniping at those of us who don't like it. [/quote']

 

To be fair he was getting a bit of heat for saying that he thought it was a good idea for new GMs and Phil got snarky comments about proposing such a thing. Same words could easily have been turned back on those early responses.

 

Anyway - anyone got better ideas on guidance for new GMs? That was pretty much where Phil was coming from at the start...Rule of X is one way to provide a safety net for beginning GMs, anyone got anything else other than experience??

 

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

and if neither GM and players know the rules well? what then?

I suggest learning them. I suggest doing this by sitting down and just playing around with the game.

 

I've never used the Rule Of X, I've always disliked it.

 

It did mean I had some growing pains as some of my characters were either weighted too much in one direction or another or just plain got squished. Or, rarely, I created a game breaking element...

 

It's called gaining experience. I personally think the Rule Of X can do nothing but hinder that learning experience by deliberately placing you in a box.

 

Let me be specific about Where I chafed with this particular thread: The statement was made that the Rule Of X allowed the player to walk off and create a balanced character for the game.

 

I would never, as a player, 'walk off' to create a character. The whole process to me is the interaction and cooperative efforts of Player and GM. That interaction is what, ultimately, will create the balance and enjoyable experience for everyone. If that's the intent of the Rule Of X - as was expressed - I think it will do nothing but damage the game.

[Vondy]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

 

Anyway - anyone got better ideas on guidance for new GMs? That was pretty much where Phil was coming from at the start...Rule of X is one way to provide a safety net for beginning GMs, anyone got anything else other than experience??

 

Doc

 

The design guidelines in 4th edition worked very well for me. They weren't perfect, but they gave me enough to go on. I made mistakes, of course, but that's how we learn. I guess my thought is that any basic set of guidelines will work as a starting point for a beginning GM, including a Rule of X, but it won't save you from making mistakes, and it isn't strictly necessary. And the key is not to worry about making mistakes. If you're on the same page as your players and you're all flexible because you're learning the system and know adjustments are inevitable it will work out. From my perspective the answer is: play the game and make the mistakes. Those mistakes will turn you into an experienced GM with a finely tuned gut.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

And the key is not to worry about making mistakes.

 

 

It's a good rule for life but it's still scary!

 

I think your other point, that both the new GM and new players, should expect to have to be flexible in character design while they are feeling their way is crucial.

 

It is one thing to make a mistake in design but another to either be stuck with a waste of 100 points on a power that is useless or to defend to the death a 10 point game killer.

 

Doc

[Kristopher]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

Rule of X was not in 4th edition. It first appeared in Fuzion.

 

Even if it wasn't called that, there was at least one suggested guideline that functioned in the same way in 4thEd, in the BBB.

[Silbeg]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

I look at any "Rule of X" in this light... they can be a decent rough estimate of capabilities. However, one must really know more than just the "X" value to guage a character.

 

Our group is starting to play with this, and we are looking at a system sort of like this:

 

oX (offensive) -> OCV + DC + SPD

dX (defensive) -> DCV + DEF/3 + SPD

tX = oX + dX

 

We are pretty certain this isn't a perfect way to figure out relative strengths, but seems to be decent.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Using M&M's Rule of X in HERO

 

The only time I could think where I come close to a "rule of x" is when setting up a Game to have "expected DEF middle and top end" and "expected Damage Class middle and top end" and then deviate as character concept calls for it.