On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

[jkwleisemann]

I've got a character I'm looking at here, and I'm thinking there are a few problems with it.

 

Basic concept: Super-mage. Nothing wrong with that.

 

But (first) he's got Multiform slated in a Multi-power. I don't have *too* many problems with that, but it's got me started in the direction of 'uhm....'

 

The bigger problem is how he set *up* his multi-forms. Four of them are okay. His 'normal' form (not using one of his magical weapons), two that use magical weapons, and one for a hawk-form he can adopt. That's just dandy, no problem in the least.

 

The problem is that his other three forms are basically the barehanded form (with a bit of a reduction to his VPP for magic) and a Vehicle of some sort.

 

I'm a little bit leery of letting him 'nest' a Vehicle within a Multiform, particularly one that's already nested within a multi-power. Perhaps oddly, I don't really have the same problem with simply letting him adjust his VPP to 'conjure' the vehicle, which is how he justifies the multiforms.

 

Thoughts? Am I just being paranoid about this?

[Robyn]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

But (first) he's got Multiform slated in a Multi-power. I don't have *too* many problems with that' date=' but it's got me started in the direction of 'uhm....'[/quote']

 

Sounds doable on the surface. At first I thought he should take a 0-point Limitation "cannot put multipower point reserve into more than one Multiform slot" (not worth any points because that's already part of Multiform), but then I realized that, depending on how long it takes to switch between slots in his Multipower, he might not want to take an extra few actions switching back to his normal form, switching his Multipower, and switching back into a different other form (especially in combat). The big no-no to me is "What happens when you try to move points away from the Multipower slot that's directly enabling you to have your current Multiform?". Is it even possible?

 

The bigger problem is how he set *up* his multi-forms. Four of them are okay. His 'normal' form (not using one of his magical weapons)' date=' two that use magical weapons, and one for a hawk-form he can adopt. That's just dandy, no problem in the least.[/quote']

 

Actually, that's worse - I'm assuming that these two forms with "magical weapons" take them as a Focus? What happens when someone else "accesses" (i.e., takes) those Focuses? Does he become unable to switch back? Does he simply lose those points in the Multiform from then on? If he can restore them simply by switching back and forth, then it doesn't make sense to allow him the Focus Limitation.

 

The problem is that his other three forms are basically the barehanded form (with a bit of a reduction to his VPP for magic) and a Vehicle of some sort.

 

I don't have time to check the Vehicle rules this morning, but if these also fall under the same rules as a Focus, they're a bit of the same problem; what does it take to "own" a vehicle, more so than the vehicle can be said to own itself? Is he a horse that can be equipped with the painful, cruel gear that has been used in the past to restrain and control horses? Is simply riding him, and using minions to always have someone "on board" enough to perpetually enslave him, keeping him from ever escaping?

 

True, if he has "control" of where the vehicle goes, keeping him in that form could be difficult. But I'm sure the villain could easily enough design a Focus to inflict pain (and eventual death) on the PC for failing to obey.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Sounds doable on the surface. At first I thought he should take a 0-point Limitation "cannot put multipower point reserve into more than one Multiform slot" (not worth any points because that's already part of Multiform)' date=' but then I realized that, depending on how long it takes to switch between slots in his Multipower, he might not [i']want[/i] to take an extra few actions switching back to his normal form, switching his Multipower, and switching back into a different other form (especially in combat). The big no-no to me is "What happens when you try to move points away from the Multipower slot that's directly enabling you to have your current Multiform?". Is it even possible?

 

It's a single slot for Multiform; he can't use the multipower to go between them, it's other powers that he's got listed in the multipower.

 

Actually, that's worse - I'm assuming that these two forms with "magical weapons" take them as a Focus? What happens when someone else "accesses" (i.e., takes) those Focuses? Does he become unable to switch back? Does he simply lose those points in the Multiform from then on? If he can restore them simply by switching back and forth, then it doesn't make sense to allow him the Focus Limitation.

 

Actually, no, they don't. He doesn't have the Focus limitation; he's pretty good about not screwing around with that sort of thing, and already saw that argument (he can summon them back simply by using the Gestures for his Multiform.)

 

I don't have time to check the Vehicle rules this morning, but if these also fall under the same rules as a Focus, they're a bit of the same problem; what does it take to "own" a vehicle, more so than the vehicle can be said to own itself? Is he a horse that can be equipped with the painful, cruel gear that has been used in the past to restrain and control horses? Is simply riding him, and using minions to always have someone "on board" enough to perpetually enslave him, keeping him from ever escaping?

 

Honestly, the biggest problem that *I* have with it is that he's effectively taking the 1/5 rate for vehicle points and turning it into a 1/25 by 'nesting' it in the point-reducing effects of the multiform.

[Kirby]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Vehicle points are to be paid for by the base form. I think Steve Long answered this in the FAQ in regards to Duplication. (Basically, "No" duplicates cannot pay points for the same vehcile/base, dividing the cost.) If he has a multiform that has a vehicle, then that vehicle is only available when that form is used.

 

Now, if I understood your post correctly, he has a few mutiforms and each one takes up a slot in his MP? I think he's actually wasting some points that way, considering it would be easier to purchase the multiplier at 5 points (next to nothing in a MP slot). Though, if he has one slot which is dedicated only to multiform, that makes sense.

 

Personally, I would not allow the MF into the MP, simply because it feels cheesy and munchkin-like (as is the case with the form that has the vehicle, if he's expecting his other forms to be able to have access to it). And if the character already has a VPP as well, there's potential for abuse also (monitor it closely!).

 

Now, one thing I'm not clear on, did he choose a multiform as a vehicle? If that's the case, then that's saying he becomes the vehicle. (Which feels really cheesy, but I say that not knowing the genre/mood you're going for, so it may fit.) Now, if he has a multiform as a vehicle and wants to use that vehicle, then nix it. That's not allowed and he's already abusing the rules. (Depending on how long he's played, he may be doing that on purpose or out of ignorance.)

 

If you're good at creating characters and he's new, then my suggestion is to ask him what he's looking for and create the character for him.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Vehicle points are to be paid for by the base form. I think Steve Long answered this in the FAQ in regards to Duplication. (Basically' date=' "No" duplicates cannot pay points for the same vehcile/base, dividing the cost.) If he has a multiform that has a vehicle, then that vehicle is [b']only[/b] available when that form is used.

 

Agreed there. I'm not *too* worried about it being in the Multipower, but it's something I wasn't particularly comfortable about.

 

Now, if I understood your post correctly, he has a few mutiforms and each one takes up a slot in his MP? I think he's actually wasting some points that way, considering it would be easier to purchase the multiplier at 5 points (next to nothing in a MP slot). Though, if he has one slot which is dedicated only to multiform, that makes sense.

 

That's what he's doing.

 

Personally, I would not allow the MF into the MP, simply because it feels cheesy and munchkin-like (as is the case with the form that has the vehicle, if he's expecting his other forms to be able to have access to it). And if the character already has a VPP as well, there's potential for abuse also (monitor it closely!).

 

Only one 'form' would have access to a given vehicle - but my problem is that it's so easy to shift from one form to the next, and the form that accesses each vehicle is so similar aside from having it (and a slightly smaller VPP) I'm not sure if it's a little too big a problem... or too small a change, like buying the powers in your Multipower as different Multiforms for whatever reason.

 

Of course, the vehicles aren't *that* 'game busting,' so it might be a relatively small point of 'munchkinism' if it is one.

 

If you're good at creating characters and he's new, then my suggestion is to ask him what he's looking for and create the character for him.

 

Oh he's not new, and quite good at the creation; no problems there.

[Lucius]

On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

I THINK what he's saying is that the character has a multiform, and the alternate form has a vehicle. Not IS a vehicle.

 

If the character multiforms and BECOMES a vehicle, he'll never be able to ride that vehicle. When he's not being the vehicle, the vehicle isn't there, and when the vehicle exists, he doesn't.

 

If the multiform HAS a vehicle, then the vehicle only exists (or at least, is only available) when that form is active. So he can't, for example, use one of the aforementioned weapons while in the vehicle. Frankly, it sounds like what's actually changing is the equipment; that the weapons turns into the vehicle turns into the other vehicle turns into the other weapon etc.

 

What's BOTHERING the Game Operations Director is that the "nested" nature of this construct means that 1 point spent equals 25 in the vehicle, PLUS whatever bonus he's getting from the multipower slot - probably a fixed slot, so probably 1/10, meaning that a 250 pt vehicle is costing the character 1 pt.

 

I can see being bothered by that.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary ponders enrolling us in a course in Creative Accounting

[Lucius]

On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Oops. I think I posted at the same time as jkwlieseman.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Not to mention double-posting, not that that bothers a palindromedary

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Only one 'form' would have access to a given vehicle - but my problem is that it's so easy to shift from one form to the next' date=' and the form that accesses each vehicle is so similar aside from having it (and a slightly smaller VPP) I'm not sure if it's a little too big a problem... or too small a change, like buying the powers in your Multipower as different Multiforms for whatever reason.[/quote']

 

Why doesn't he just buy a vehicle creation power in his VPP or Multipower, rather than take a Multiform that makes such a minor change to the character? If you have a 350 point character, spending 70 points on a Multiform to shift around 50 points of the character seems like a waste of points to me.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

There are other changes (the hawk-form, and the two forms featuring the powers of his mystic weapons) that I'm not so objectionable regarding. It's (specifically) the forms that summon his vehicles... and I am leaning towards requesting he put them into his VPP instead. Seems the most reasonable way to handle things, honestly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

There are other changes (the hawk-form' date=' and the two forms featuring the powers of his mystic weapons) that I'm not so objectionable regarding. It's (specifically) the forms that summon his vehicles... and I am leaning towards requesting he put them into his VPP instead. Seems the most reasonable way to handle things, honestly.[/quote']

I would go this route, it's the most reasonable and least confusing.

[Robyn]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

If the character multiforms and BECOMES a vehicle' date=' he'll never be able to ride that vehicle. When he's not being the vehicle, the vehicle isn't there, and when the vehicle exists, he doesn't.[/quote']

 

I don't know about this one. If he's taking it as a vehicle construct, by the game mechanics, then yes; but it should be possible to make, say, a horse PC, and say that another PC can ride on your back. Maybe a "no hands" carry if based on strength? Your typical horse would have hooves, no real grasping power, but it could "lift" by getting its back under something, so that's not any ability beyond what the stat inherently gives it.

 

If it were a tank, I would call it Growth to occupy a few hexes, Hole In The Middle to have a hollow body, SFX "metal (non-organic)" with high levels of PD/ED that protect those inside as well - not sure how to do that last one, though.

 

He couldn't get the 1/5 reduction for building a tank multiform, though.

[AndrewD2]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

I could just be looking at something wrong, but I thought constant powers like multiform, when used in a multipower, would cease functioning after the activated phase.

 

Granted it's quite possible for me to be completely confused on it too.

[assault]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

To put it bluntly, this character looks like more trouble than it's worth.

 

Let's see: he's got Vehicles nested inside Multiforms nested inside a Multipower, and apparently has a VPP as well. Is that correct?

 

If so, my response would be: "no... freakin'... way".

[Kirby]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Let's see: he's got Vehicles nested inside Multiforms nested inside a Multipower' date=' and apparently has a VPP as well. Is that correct?[/quote']

Well, at least he didn't make the vehicle an OAF.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

Did he?

(But yeah, I wouldn't allow it myself.)

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Sounds like what he's doing is this:

 

0. Base form + VPP

1. Hawk form

2. Base Form -some of the VPP + Weapon 1

3 Base Form -some of the VPP + Weapon 2

4. Base Form -some of the VPP + Vehicle 1

5. Base Form -some of the VPP + Vehicle 2

6. Base Form -some of the VPP + Vehicle 3

 

Just looking at that, I'd personally say it's fine, in terms of strict game mechanics. It looks like he's trying to min-max his way around not having to buy the weapons all at once. Which is understandable, in that sense.

 

However, the writeup for multiform says that it is OK for the gm to disallow this, on the basis that nesting multiform inside of a multipower is very similar to nesting a multipower inside of another multipower: after all, multiform is basically a type of multipower, where you have access to one set of powers instead of another.

 

My question for you: is the writeup such at each of the multiforms is equal in cost to the base form? (ie, is the base form a 150+100 character, and so are the others?) If so, I'd say disallow it simply on that basis - he's basically playing the utility of 7 full-fledged heroes for the price of one, with the restriction that only one of them can appear at any time. That's not too much of a restriction.

 

If he's purchased it as (multiform, with multiple forms), then I'd say it's ok in that sense. However, it is a bit complex. If you don't want to deal with it, then don't.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Sounds like what he's doing is this:

 

0. Base form + VPP

1. Hawk form

2. Base Form -some of the VPP + Weapon 1

3 Base Form -some of the VPP + Weapon 2

4. Base Form -some of the VPP + Vehicle 1

5. Base Form -some of the VPP + Vehicle 2

6. Base Form -some of the VPP + Vehicle 3

 

Actually, more like:

 

Base Form (w. Weapon 1)

0: Multiform (Ultra-Slot)

a: Form w. Weapon 2 (actual changes, mind you - no problem there)

c: Barehanded Form (stronger VPP, no weapon-based powers - no problem there either)

d-g: Barehanded -some of the VPP + Vehicle

1-X: Other Multipower Powers

 

I've turned it out, and requested that he rework the Vehicle 'forms.'

[assault]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Actually, more like:

 

Base Form (w. Weapon 1)

0: Multiform (Ultra-Slot)

a: Form w. Weapon 2 (actual changes, mind you - no problem there)

c: Barehanded Form (stronger VPP, no weapon-based powers - no problem there either)

d-g: Barehanded -some of the VPP + Vehicle

1-X: Other Multipower Powers

 

I've turned it out, and requested that he rework the Vehicle 'forms.'

 

Hang on. Does he have a VPP inside a multipower?

 

Whoa.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Hang on. Does he have a VPP inside a multipower?

 

Whoa.

 

He has a Multiform that possesses a VPP inside a multipower... which, in retrospect, might not really be all that much *better*....

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Hang on. Does he have a VPP inside a multipower?

 

Whoa.

 

I'm thinking he's saying that the Multipower has a multiform in one of the slots, which in turn has multiple forms. All of those forms are the same as his base form to some extent. However, his base form has a VPP. Therefore, all of the multiforms have a VPP as well, to some extent.

 

OK, I can see what he's doing. Again, I'd agree with Assualt - this looks to be a bit more trouble than it's worth. I'm actually writing up a similar style character as a rewrite for my Uberworld PbEM character, and I'm starting to come to the same conclusion - that simply having a VPP, which is what I started out as, is a better solution.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

He has a Multiform that possesses a VPP inside a multipower... which' date=' in retrospect, might not really be all that much *better*....[/quote']

 

Well, I can see the historical justification of doing so:

 

1. Base character has a VPP

2. Base character has a multiform as well

3. multiform characters are very similar to base character, but with some differences.

4. Therefore, multiform characters also have a VPP.

 

If the multipower and the VPP are essentially the same power pool (as you implied that they were), then it kinda makes sense - you change the multipower, and the VPP gets affected. In this case, it was shifting into oen of the multiforms, which has its points in something else, so that the VPP gets 'reorganized' by getting smaller.

 

It's a little complex, though. Specifically, hitting this style of build with a Drain or Transfer or something like that might start to show holes. That was ultimatley the reason why I'm thinking that my own version of doing this might not be a good idea - due to complexity, the character starts to break down when you use it.

[assault]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

He has a Multiform that possesses a VPP inside a multipower... which' date=' in retrospect, might not really be all that much *better*....[/quote']

 

Hmm...

 

I think I will downgrade my opinion of the character from "more trouble than it's worth" to "totally bogus", and reiterate my "no freakin' way" recommendation.

 

I suggest that he should eliminate the Multipower. Having a VPP inside a Multiform is OK, but having a Multiform inside a Multipower makes no possible sense whatsoever.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: On Multiform and Potential Abuses Thereof....

 

Hmm...

I suggest that he should eliminate the Multipower. Having a VPP inside a Multiform is OK, but having a Multiform inside a Multipower makes no possible sense whatsoever.

 

How about this?

 

 
Multipower: Leet Shapeshift Powerz
1. Shapeshift
2. Multiform
3. Transform (Physical)

 

Eh - kinda lame, but I could (potentially) see someone doing it.

 

Personally, when I was thinking about re-writing Jake to be more elegant, I came up with the following:

 

 
22 Multipower: Troll Forms: 40 point reserve (Inherant +1/4, Cannot transform into base form -1/2, Extra Time [one round, Cannot take any other action, activation only] -3/4)
4u 1. Troll Form 1 (200 point Multiform)
4u 2. Troll Form 2 (200 point Multiform)
4u 3. Troll Form 3 (200 point Multiform)
4u 4. Troll Form 4 (200 point Multiform)
4u 5. Troll Form 5 (200 point Multiform)
4u 6. Troll Form 7 (200 point Multiform)
4u 7. Troll Form 8 (200 point Multiform)

 

Obviously, the reason I did it this way instead of purchasing Multiform as a single power was to gain the abilility to have multiple 200-point characters: with an Active Cost of 50, the best a Multiform could get would be 4 200-point characters. I wanted the Inherant bonus as well as 8 potential 200 point forms, so I had to figure something else out.

 

Is this abusive? Eh, potentially. It's a 250 point game, so this mainly allows my character (Jake) to run around as a bunch of different 200 point characters, without having to worry about being drained of the ability to switch forms. As such, as long as the individual characters are OK'd with the GM, and that he doesn't step on other player's ability to do cool stuff, I'd say it was fine.

 

However, this got a bit complex for my tastes. The character already can do almost this exact same thing, but with a VPP. As such, unless I wanted each character to be really different, I wasn't going to bother. And as I thought of it more, I do prefer the VPP approach - it keeps the character more unified. There are more dice rolls involved if I want to change anything in combat though, but as his transformation was never really supposed to be a combat thing, I'm fine with that limitation.

 

In my mind, what would really have been abusive was if I had not taken the 1/4 advantage, and instead just gone with the following:

 

 
33 Multipower: Troll Forms: 50 point reserve (Cannot transform into base form -1/2)
5u 1. Troll Form 1 (250 point Multiform)
5u 2. Troll Form 2 (250 point Multiform)
5u 3. Troll Form 3 (250 point Multiform)
...

 

In this form, it allows Jake to be as effective a player as anyone else, plus he can do a bunch of stuff no one else can. His only vunerability is the potential for being drained out of one of is forms, which quite honestly is extremely unlikey. Hence, I didn't even bother going with this.