Size Powers Question

[Lucius]

Note: I am quoting Killer Shrike, but moving this discussion to a new thread because I want to ask EVERYONE for opinions on this one.

 

I disagree. Growth bought via a Focus like that should conceivably be at least 0 END Persistent. So you end up in this scenario where you are applying Advantages to a Power solely so you can apply a Limitation to it (Focus).

 

Via the 5th Edition method you instead say:

 

The Armor Suit is larger and heavier than a normal person. So:

A) What are the benefits granted by the suits unusual size?

What are the hindrances caused by the suits unusual size?

 

.

 

So answer me this;

 

If the solution is to buy the benefits of Growth, and to take the hindrances as Disads to the character or Limitations on the power....

 

 

Why do the size change powers exist at all? Why not just say that increasing or decreasing your size is a matter of buying certain powers/characteristics/Aid to characteristics/whatever, with the appropriate limitations, and be done with it?

 

 

I think this aspect of Fifth Edition is rather arbitrary. Either you have a "package deal" power for Growth and Shrinking, that can be made Always On for characters that are always a different than normal size, or else size is just a "special effect" with certain things that are appropriate to buy for it, regardless of how much time you spend that size.

 

Can someone explain the change to me? Can someone explain what's wrong with buying Growth or Shrinking for characters who are always that size? And why whatever's wrong with it ISN'T wrong if you're only that size part of the time??

 

Frankly, I could probably live with it either way (assuming we actually COULD simulate Shrinking properly without using, well, Shrinking) and in fact, I've built a "Growth" spell that used linked AIDs rather than the power Growth, but this schizophrenic set up of "okay one way, not okay the other" drives me batty.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that the psych lim about "logical consistency" has been triggered again.....

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

My own rationale about Steve's very strong rulebook recommendation that characters who are always big or small should not buy Growth or Shrinking Always On, is that it attempts to get HERO gamers away from the notion that that's the only "proper" way to do it. That notion was emphasized by all the official 4E and earlier character builds. Growth and Shrinking as Powers provide a set package of benefits and drawbacks that may not match the way a player wants his character to function. The current method allows for more individual customization.

 

OTOH when you want a character to be able to change size, that same package approach makes for a simpler build and an easier-in-play transition through levels of size, than buying the abilities piecemeal. That said, I personally have no problem with someone buying Size Powers Always On, or size change as Aid and other discreet elements, if that better suits what they want to do. In the case of the specific powered armor build that sparked Killer Shrike's comments, IMHO it's a logical and valid approach suiting the SFX.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

My own rationale about Steve's very strong rulebook recommendation that characters who are always big or small should not buy Growth or Shrinking Always On, is that it attempts to get HERO gamers away from the notion that that's the only "proper" way to do it. That notion was emphasized by all the official 4E and earlier character builds. Growth and Shrinking as Powers provide a set package of benefits and drawbacks that may not match the way a player wants his character to function. The current method allows for more individual customization.

 

OTOH when you want a character to be able to change size, that same package approach makes for a simpler build and an easier-in-play transition through levels of size, than buying the abilities piecemeal. That said, I personally have no problem with someone buying Size Powers Always On, or size change as Aid and other discreet elements, if that better suits what they want to do. In the case of the specific powered armor build that sparked Killer Shrike's comments, IMHO it's a logical and valid approach suiting the SFX.

 

What he said.

 

Growth (and Shrinking and Density Increase) are for characters who have the ability to grow, shrink, or become denser.

 

Characters who simply are big, small, or dense just "are". Give them stats, disads (and powers if needed) as appropriate.

 

I look at it this way. If a wizard has a spell that dispells growth, why should it affect a giant? A giant isn't someone with the ability to grow, they're just big.

[Lucius]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

What he said.

 

Growth (and Shrinking and Density Increase) are for characters who have the ability to grow, shrink, or become denser.

 

Characters who simply are big, small, or dense just "are". Give them stats, disads (and powers if needed) as appropriate.

 

I look at it this way. If a wizard has a spell that dispells growth, why should it affect a giant? A giant isn't someone with the ability to grow, they're just big.

 

Why would a wizard have "Dispell Growth?"

 

He'd probably have Dispel Magick, which would dispell a SPELL of Growth.

 

And even if he had Dispel Growth for some weird reason, you'd make the Growth of a giant Inherent. That's what is meant by "just are." This is like saying if a monster is tough, don't give it Armor, give it PD and ED and Resistant Defense.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Where did the palindromedary go?

[Robyn]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

Growth (and Shrinking and Density Increase) are for characters who have the ability to grow' date=' shrink, or become denser.[/quote']

 

What if I want both?

 

I compress myself into a smaller form, changing my size but not my mass. Should this be done with Shapeshifting linked to stat increases (only while Shapeshifted), or Shrinking with Density plus buying off the stat reductions from Shrinking?

 

Is that the kind of thing you were both speaking about, Lucius?

[John Desmarais]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

I compress myself into a smaller form' date=' changing my size but not my mass. Should this be done with Shapeshifting linked to stat increases (only while Shapeshifted), or Shrinking with Density plus buying off the stat reductions from Shrinking?[/quote']

 

Shrinking that doesn't include a change in mass. Work from effect. The primary game effect of reduced mass is Knockback modifiers. I would do this with Shrinking linked to enough Knockback Resistance to offset the Knockback modifiers of the Shrinking.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

What if I want both?

 

I compress myself into a smaller form, changing my size but not my mass. Should this be done with Shapeshifting linked to stat increases (only while Shapeshifted), or Shrinking with Density plus buying off the stat reductions from Shrinking?

 

Is that the kind of thing you were both speaking about, Lucius?

 

I've seen this done in HERO in the past by Linking Shrinking to Density Increase. Three levels of DI will offset the reduction of mass from one level of Shrinking (Shrinking reduces mass to 1/8, DI increases it x8), and DI's Knockback Resistance perfectly balances the increased Knockback from Shrinking. Your character is smaller (extra DCV), stronger and tougher from being more dense - actually a pretty good package IMO.

 

If you don't want the DI benefits - you don't want your character to be stronger just because he or she is more densely compacted - then John's suggestion above is one good way to go. You can simply say that for purposes of this construct, the character doesn't weigh any less.

[Robyn]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

Your character is smaller (extra DCV), stronger and tougher from being more dense - actually a pretty good package IMO.

 

If you don't want the DI benefits - you don't want your character to be stronger just because he or she is more densely compacted - then John's suggestion above is one good way to go. You can simply say that for purposes of this construct, the character doesn't weigh any less.

 

The problem is that if I do want the benefits from increased density, even if only to counteract the then-nonsensical reductions that Shrinking causes for my statistics, I have to pay a lot more points for it. Shouldn't there be a simpler, more straightforward way of doing this?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

I really don't see where the confusion is. If your character changes size like a superheroic grower / shrinker, or a spriggan, or something similar to that then you use the Growth and Shrinking power. Same idea w/ DI -- if their mass can be actively fluctuated then you use DI.

 

If the character (or whatever) is always a specific size and / or mass you buy the benefits of that state as seperate abilities and take a PhysLim or Side Effect to represent the downsides of that state if any.

 

There are size templates for this purpose in the Bestiary and in 5e Revised starting on page 574.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

Robyn, I'm not sure what you mean by "statistic reductions" from Shrinking, if you're talking about the Shrinking Power. Other than reduced mass and height, and increased Knockback taken from attacks, Shrinking doesn't reduce any other Characteristics or abilities. Could you be more specific?

[Robyn]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

Robyn' date=' I'm not sure what you mean by "statistic reductions" from Shrinking, if you're talking about the Shrinking Power. Other than reduced mass and height, and increased Knockback taken from attacks, Shrinking doesn't reduce any other Characteristics or abilities. Could you be more specific?[/quote']

 

Odd . . . checking my book, Growth affects characteristics, but Shrinking does not

 

Let me ask about the opposite, then. Let's say I wanted to distribute my character's weight by ballooning up so I would fall more slowly, but that would increase my size and decrease my weight and decrease my Body and resistance to damage.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

Odd . . . checking my book, Growth affects characteristics, but Shrinking does not

 

Let me ask about the opposite, then. Let's say I wanted to distribute my character's weight by ballooning up so I would fall more slowly, but that would increase my size and decrease my weight and decrease my Body and resistance to damage.

That sounds like Gliding with a Side Effect to me.

[David Johnston]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

Why would a wizard have "Dispell Growth?"

 

He'd probably have Dispel Magick, which would dispell a SPELL of Growth.

 

Dispel Growth is cheaper.

 

 

And even if he had Dispel Growth for some weird reason, you'd make the Growth of a giant Inherent.

 

I have my doubts about "Inherent". There are quite a few possible special effects for dispels or suppresses that don't care whether your ability is innate.

 

This is like saying if a monster is tough, don't give it Armor, give it PD and ED and Resistant Defense.

 

I don't have much problem with that, except that "Resistant PD" doesn't clutter up character sheets the way "Growth, 0end, Persistent, Always On" does.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

Why would a wizard have "Dispell Growth?"

 

He'd probably have Dispel Magick, which would dispell a SPELL of Growth.

 

Dispel Growth is cheaper.

 

OK, that's why the PLAYER would like the wizard to have Dispel Growth. Now how does the spell work such that it should dispel only the Growth power?

 

And even if he had Dispel Growth for some weird reason' date=' you'd make the Growth of a giant Inherent.[/b']

 

I have my doubts about "Inherent". There are quite a few possible special effects for dispels or suppresses that don't care whether your ability is innate.

 

How does your Dispel Growth know the proper size of the target is about 6' tall, rather than 1" tall? What Growth is being dispelled? What would the ultimate size of the target be if the spell is cast on:

 

- an elephant?

- a flea?

- a normal-size human?

 

They are also currently at their inherent sizes.

[David Johnston]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

OK, that's why the PLAYER would like the wizard to have Dispel Growth. Now how does the spell work such that it should dispel only the Growth power?

 

 

 

How does your Dispel Growth know the proper size of the target is about 6' tall, rather than 1" tall? What Growth is being dispelled? What would the ultimate size of the target be if the spell is cast on:

 

- an elephant?

- a flea?

- a normal-size human?

 

They are also currently at their inherent sizes.

 

Well, if you just buy them with the limitation like: "Really Big" or "Really Small" the question doesn't arise in the first place. As for the spell, it's just a specific counterspell.

[Robyn]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

Well' date=' if you just buy them with the limitation like: "Really Big" or "Really Small" the question doesn't arise in the first place. As for the spell, it's just a specific counterspell.[/quote']

 

I think the question is what the "background story justification" was supposed to be on such a spell. I mean, that's a very limited scope; can you think of why some wizard would research such a specific spell? What would it be used for, or against? Unless, of course, the "more restrictions make the spell cost less to use" mechanic is known in-character, in which case the wizard wants to make it as narrow in application as possible.

[David Johnston]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

I think the question is what the "background story justification" was supposed to be on such a spell. I mean' date=' that's a very limited scope; can you think of why some wizard would research such a specific spell? What would it be used for, or against? [/quote']

 

Spriggans.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

I think the question is what the "background story justification" was supposed to be on such a spell. I mean' date=' that's a very limited scope; can you think of why some wizard would research such a specific spell? What would it be used for, or against? Unless, of course, the "more restrictions make the spell cost less to use" mechanic is known in-character, in which case the wizard wants to make it as narrow in application as possible.[/quote']

 

The guys in the adjacent kingdom like to sow terror with giant-esque stompings, generated by spells and/or potions of Growth. Making the spell a single-application would make it easier to research, learn, and disseminate amongst the kingdom warmages.

 

(And, sometimes, in games, I've seen PCs spend their XP on something for one single opponent that they really really really don't like. I could see a magician PC creating a Dispel Growth spell for the sole purpose of defeating Leviathan, if Leviathan levelled a proper beatdown on him.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

Spriggans.

 

Then why not go a step further and limit it specifically to Spriggans' growth (or magical growth). Problem solved - neither elephant nor flea need fear the spell, as it is specifically directed at a single species.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Size Powers Question

 

I have my doubts about "Inherent". There are quite a few possible special effects for dispels or suppresses that don't care whether your ability is innate.

 

OTOH, Inherent is there for the special effects that don't care what power to attempt turn them off is.

 

For example, I've got a character that has Inherent Desolidification. No one can dispel, suppress or drain and thus turn its desolidification off because it has no mass (or gender, thus the "it").

Conceivably someone could transform it into a creature that does have mass, and thus no desolidification, but that is an altoghether different thing.