How can I do THIS?

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Ok, having just been here a little while I see a lot of threads asking about how to do X in the hero system.

 

 

 

I was wondering if anyone had considered putting in a specific forum just for "how can I do this?" type questions so they could get spotted and answered ASAP. it seems to me there are enough people asking that kind of question to make it a viable forum.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

You just posted in it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Repped.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

You just posted in it.

 

Pretty much. Most questions and requests regarding permutations to the HERO System end up on this forum, unless they're for something closely tied to the conventions of a specific genre. As you can see, they're usually replied to pretty quickly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

As you can see' date=' they're usually replied to pretty quickly. [/quote']

Some of us are almost omnipresent.

 

 

reminds me... haven't seen Sean Waters in a bit...

[prestidigitator]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

It's an idea. Here we tend to discuss both modifications to the actual system and how to do things with the (standard/extended/modified) system. Would seperating the topics be helpful, harmful, or neither? Don't know, myself. I'm generally okay with the way things are now, though.

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

OK, here's a couple really tough to do things that I once discussed on gurps and they couldn't come up with a way to handle it, so let's see how hero does it.

 

These are both related to warhammer 40,000, so if you know much about it, it'll help.

 

They have genetically enhanced, bio engineered space marines in 40k that have a LOAD of abilities, but one is realy, realy esoteric and hard to model. Basically, if a marine eats a creature, a special organ he has can absorb some of it's memories, and thus the marine can acquire a certain amount of information about an environment by eating a creature from that environment. Basically the marine can get a basic feel for an environment from an animal he eats from it.

 

I wonder how that would be modeled.

 

Now there's an alien race called the kroot that have an even greater ability related to eating creatures: A kroot can absorb DNA traits from a creature it eats and incorporate it into t's own DNA over time.

 

So, if a kroot ate some chameleons, it could possible develop chameleon like skin. Moreover, the kroot have some control over their reproduction, and under the direction of a kroot called a shaper, reproducing kroot can selecgively incorporate the traits to an even greater degree into their offspring.

 

This doesn't happen at comic book speed, it takes time and a mature kroot can only change by so much, but they can, to a degree, absorb genetic traits from creatures they eat and over time these traits show up in them, and if they choose, their offspring.

 

How would you do these in hero? I'm curious.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

I know a bit about 40k, but I was never heavy into that end of things (I was more a WFB sort) but I'll take a whirl at this.

 

For the Space Marines...do they keep that knowledge, does it fade over time, or does the next set of knowledge they get replace the prior set? If it fades, or if it gets replaced by a new knowledge set, just use Cramming.

 

If it doesn't fade, but doesn't happen at "comic book speed", you don't need to model it...just spend 1 point of experience to buy a Knowledge Skill (Specific Environment) at the Familiarity level, or Survival (Specific Environment) like that.

 

For the other...

 

You could do that several different ways, some more legal than others.

 

1) Buy Multiform with the "Cannot Change Back" Limitation (a house-ruled version of "Cannot Recombine" from Duplication). Leave the other form undefined at purchase. When the creature uses this ability, define the other form as being "base form, but changed in a fashion to mirror some abilities of xxxxx", and then have it change to the new form. Since it can't change back, presto!

 

2) Buy some dice of Major Transform, Usable on Self Only, probably with the All or Nothing reversion, and define the situation that can cause the reversion to be exposure to a virus that's specifically created to reverse the sorts of genetic self-augmentation these things do. That way, you don't have to worry about the transform "wearing off" (healing back). You might also want to add on the Partial Transform advantage.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

On the Knowlege end, a custom Detect or a heavily limited form of Clairsentience could also work. It could also be the SFX of the Traveler Skill Enhancer.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

As for the, "Kroot," deal, I would suggest maybe a small (1-3 point) Talent that allows them to grow their racial abilities over time in this fashion, instead of having to go through involved gene therapy or whatever. A small, Limited VPP could also be used to build the abilities over time and then convert them into permanent traits as the character acquires the Experience to spend on it (actually that's what I'd probably base the Talent on anyway).

[Dust Raven]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

For the "eating squirrels makes me a good woodsman" ability, it really depends on how fast the knowledge comes to the character, how long it lasts, exactly how much of specifically what information is gained. I'm unfortunately not familiar with the system and I'm hoping that this information is actually listed. I know some power descriptions from earlier editions of WH were somewhat vague.

 

For the "you are what you eat" power, that's just an in-game explination for why a character/creature buys a certain ability with experience.

[Lucius]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Quoth the Raven

 

For the "eating squirrels makes me a good woodsman" ability, it really depends on how fast the knowledge comes to the character, how long it lasts, exactly how much of specifically what information is gained. I'm unfortunately not familiar with the system and I'm hoping that this information is actually listed. I know some power descriptions from earlier editions of WH were somewhat vague.

 

For the "you are what you eat" power, that's just an in-game explination for why a character/creature buys a certain ability with experience.

 

I'd say Dr. Anomaly is right about using Cramming. It's just that in this case you're cramming the information in your mouth, not in your mind.

 

I'm with Dust Raven on "you are what you eat." Sounds like it just means those characters have a ready-made explanation for being able to spend XP on exotic powers. At most, a small Talent or Perk.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

That's how the palindromedary does it

[Dust Raven]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

As a rule (that for the most part, goes unsaid and usually has no need to be written down), no player in any game I'm running will have to spend points just so they can spend points.

[Mantis]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Lucius beat me to it - the kroot's ability to change gradually is best handled by allowing the spending of XP, unfettered by the usual convention that they must be spent in a manner consistent with the character concept.

 

Note to self: spend more XP on improving typing speed.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Note to self: spend more XP on improving typing speed.

+1 SPD, Only for Typing (-2), Active points: 10, Real points: 3?

 

 

Actually, this is probably better handled as a custom Talent of some kind, and should probably require a DEX check (to make the typing legible -- after all, anyone can "type" very fast, just by drumming their fingers rapidly on the keys).

 

[Dust Raven]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

+1 SPD, Only for Typing (-2), Active points: 10, Real points: 3?

 

 

Actually, this is probably better handled as a custom Talent of some kind, and should probably require a DEX check (to make the typing legible -- after all, anyone can "type" very fast, just by drumming their fingers rapidly on the keys).

 

 

No, just buying or improving the PS: Typing Skill.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Another way to handle the bioengineered taste gland (is that the Betchers Gland? My 40K lore is a bit rusty), It could easily be handled as the SFX for an Analyze skill (Analyze Enviroment) that is used to add bonuses to Survival Skill, with retained memories reflected by XP expended on terrain or environmental Area Knowledges that act as complimentary skills.

In any case, enough of the Marine implants are aimed at increased develpoment of skills or stats that I'd probably give the Marine package the Expert skill enchancer to allow the the ability to buy appropriate background skills more efficiently.

[Brother Jim]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Ah.....I can't remember what it's called, but the Astartes (space marine) has to eat some of the brain to gain this knowledge. He can't just bite a chunk out of someone's arm to do that.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

*ponders* Yeah, this is a bit on the advanced side. Another thing I thought of was a variation on Mind Link or a Transfer - I'm not quite familiar enough yet with the system to tell you if you can Transfer a resident creatures "KS: Survival" into your own brain, but as the collective says, this is easily simulated with Cramming.

 

I've already forgotten what the other thing you wanted to do was. Something about aliens eating people and changing forms? I would start this off as a Multipower with a set Active Point limit, and as they 'absorb' the abilities of others, they spend the points to slot into the Multipower. It's an initial investment to get the MP started, but cheaper down the road, and all your mechanics are pre-covered.

 

You can do it as a VPP as well, but you can slap lims on the Multipower and bring the cost down drastically.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Oh, and don't forget: You can't Transform yourself. You must Shape Shift or Multiform. Transform is vs. others only.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Can we consider typing a Sense (Transmit for Normal Touch, perhaps?) and just buy the Rapid Sense Adder for it?

[Tornado]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Clairsentience, Retrocognition, with some limitations on it to make it so he has to eat the brain of the creature he wants to retrocog off of, and a VPP for things like Combat Skill Levels, Knowledge skills, powers based off the character's knowledge, et cetera.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Oh' date=' and don't forget: You can't Transform yourself. You must Shape Shift or Multiform. Transform is vs. others only.[/quote']

 

This is so by the rules, and in general it's a appropriate restriction IMO. However, considering how often the rulebook suggests bending the rules when it's the best way to achieve a particular effect - and how many published examples do exactly that - I wouldn't discard the idea out of hand.

 

Along those lines, our colleague Chiba Bob posted a writeup for this ability based on Transform:

 

Omophagea: Minor Transform 2d6 (Absorb Genetic Memories), Improved Target Group (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (35 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Must Consume Part Of The Creature To Absorb Memories (-1/4). Real Cost 11

 

Given the restrictions on its use, I wouldn't consider it abusive.

 

 

Another possibility would be to use Telepathy large enough to read a target's memories, with appropriate Limitations. I'll leave it to someone with more time and ambition than I right now, to write it up.

[Threnody]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

Basically' date=' if a marine eats a creature, a special organ he has can absorb some of it's memories, and thus the marine can acquire a certain amount of information about an environment by eating a creature from that environment. Basically the marine can get a basic feel for an environment from an animal he eats from it.[/quote']

Cramming (with a grody special effect) is good, but you only get one Skill. If there's more than Survival needed, two, three, maybe four Crammings. OR, a VPP only for Skills; needs GM A-OK to put Skills in a VPP.

 

A kroot can absorb DNA traits from a creature it eats and incorporate it into t's own DNA over time.

 

So, if a kroot ate some chameleons, it could possible develop chameleon like skin.

Shape Shift, Sight and Touch groups (others too??), with a VPP for other powers. Inherent, and you and your GM gotta agree it can change even tho' it's Inherent.

 

Moreover' date=' the kroot have some control over their reproduction, and under the direction of a kroot called a shaper, reproducing kroot can selecgively incorporate the traits to an even greater degree into their offspring.[/quote']

This don't need a power. It's plot, means the GM waves his hand and voila.

[DangerousDan]

Re: How can I do THIS?

 

OK, here's a couple really tough to do things that I once discussed on gurps and they couldn't come up with a way to handle it, so let's see how hero does it.

 

These are both related to warhammer 40,000, so if you know much about it, it'll help.

 

They have genetically enhanced, bio engineered space marines in 40k that have a LOAD of abilities, but one is realy, realy esoteric and hard to model. Basically, if a marine eats a creature, a special organ he has can absorb some of it's memories, and thus the marine can acquire a certain amount of information about an environment by eating a creature from that environment. Basically the marine can get a basic feel for an environment from an animal he eats from it.

 

I wonder how that would be modeled.

 

Well this is one of the things that Hero doesn't model very well either. The system does seem to be designed to prevent you from changing your set of skills without adding experience. The only two mechanisms which I'm aware of that can easily be twisted to this purpose are Cramming and Variable Power Pool. Transfer allows you to take one thing from a victim and add a similar or equal amount to something you already have, and Transform does not allow you to transform yourself.

 

Cramming costs 5 cp and gets you no better than an 8- ever with one single skill at a time. In my mind this costs too much for so little. If you are the GM, you can, for example allow players to apply one or more overall levels to improve this 8- to something useful or even change the cost of Cramming.

 

Since Skills as powers are "Special," GM's permission is required to create a skills VPP pool, but it does not explicitly break any rule to have a VPP with 3 points in the pool and 1 in the control cost that allows you to have at any one time up to 3 points of any skills. This costs you one point less than a single cramming slot and gives you more than 3 times as much effect--too little for so much. The limitation that the skills (including knowledge) in the pool can only be changed by taking those skills and/or knowledges from creatures he eats is a whole -1/2 limitation. With that, an 11 point pool would have a 4 point control cost, with a total of 15 real points. Thus for the price of 3 cramming slots that only get you three 8- skills, you get the ability to have more than 5 two point temporary skills or 3 three point skills with two points left over. I cannot see any GM allowing a marine to acquire more skill than the victim possessed.

 

Transfer could be twisted to allow a marine to transfer skills that he didn't have from a target to himself, without alteration or with slight loss. Built with a delayed return rate and possibly other advantanges, this would get you what you want, but would require significant limitations to get the cost down to something appropriate.

 

Now there's an alien race called the kroot that have an even greater ability related to eating creatures: A kroot can absorb DNA traits from a creature it eats and incorporate it into it's own DNA over time.

 

So, if a kroot ate some chameleons, it could possible develop chameleon like skin. Moreover, the kroot have some control over their reproduction, and under the direction of a kroot called a shaper, reproducing kroot can selecgively incorporate the traits to an even greater degree into their offspring.

 

This doesn't happen at comic book speed, it takes time and a mature kroot can only change by so much, but they can, to a degree, absorb genetic traits from creatures they eat and over time these traits show up in them, and if they choose, their offspring.

 

How would you do these in hero? I'm curious.

 

The Kroot's situation is far easier: the juvenile or adult kroot has a mimic VPP, and the GM simply allows a kroot's offspring to be different. In Hero, as in most RPGs, reproduction and fertility are implied and not explicit. The only thing that prevents people in a game from giving birth to dragons, or vice versa is the GM.