What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

[radioKAOS]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Maybe not so odd, but one I forget a lot of the time...

 

Resistant Defenses apply to the BODY done by a Killing Attack. The STUN from a Killing Attack is defended against by your total PD [so long as you have some rPD to stop some of the Body damage.].

[Lucius]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

 

what are the odds Lucius ?

 

I dunno. But enough people have asked privately before that I'm thinking maybe I should try to lay the whole story out once and for all in a public forum.

 

Or maybe not the WHOLE story. I don't know the whole story yet.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Perhaps the palindromedary knows the whole story.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Dodge is a hero term' date=' dodge is what you attempting.[/quote']

 

Dodge is a Hero System term; just standing there while the other guy misses by a mile is what I'm attempting.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

the description of Dodge seems contradictory on the surface. pg.386.

 

1st sentence: you may avoid an attack.

 

2nd sentence: you get +3 DCV versus attacks.

 

but in english, the word dodge sounds like a miss.

so some newbies get confuzilated.

 

personally I would edit the 1st sentence to say "attempt to avoid an attack"

 

 

may as in possibly. I don't think "may" was used to mean "allowed to". Or maybe it was and the words "if successful" were left our or assumed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

the description of Dodge seems contradictory on the surface. pg.386.

 

1st sentence: you may avoid an attack.

 

2nd sentence: you get +3 DCV versus attacks.

 

but in english, the word dodge sounds like a miss.

so some newbies get confuzilated.

 

personally I would edit the 1st sentence to say "attempt to avoid an attack"

 

I don't believe I've ever seen a game where "dodge" = "target automatically missed by attacker". If the newbie is confused, Energy Blasts against PD, Flash against hearing and Killing Attacks that inflict Stun will have his liquified brain slithering out of his ears, so changing Dodge won't fix much.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Right. We also perform, "Strikes," but if the attack roll is unsuccesful you usually don't actually strike anything. Doesn't seem all that confusing to me. The name of the maneuver describes what you are trying to do; what the outcome will be if it is successful.

 

I'll admit that, "Dive for Cover," might be a little confusing given that actual cover isn't necessarily involved at all (a lot of the time you are just trying to get outside an area rather than get behind something.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

I'll admit that, "Dive for Cover," might be a little confusing given that actual cover isn't necessarily involved at all (a lot of the time you are just trying to get outside an area rather than get behind something.

 

Yeah, but Dive For Someplace Far Away From The Grenade was just too long of a name.

[Lucius]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

When an automaton takes the Takes no Stun power, all defenses triple in cost (or drop to 1/3 effect.)

 

This makes sense, as the automaton only has to defend against BOD, not STUN, and 1:3 is close enough to the ratio between the two. Each point of PD, ED, Armor, Force Field, etc, is now worth thrice as much, is a logical conclusion.

 

But an answer I got from Steve Long made clear that the cost tripling applies to ANYTHING that can be called a "Defense Power," not just the defenses that work against BOD and STUN. So things like Flash Defense, Power Defense, Mental Defense (if an automaton needed it for some reason) are ALSO tripled. And that DOESN'T make any sense. Those defenses don't gain anything from the Takes no Stun power; if they're not made more effective, why should they cost more??

 

I have to nominate this as yet another "bizarre rules issue."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary strikes some people as bizarre, but isn't a rules issue.

[nexus]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Maybe its not bizarre but I just don't like the fact that if you establish a Grab that, after the inistial phase, you make a new attack roll if you want to actually inflict damage. I understand the underlying game balance reason for it I beleive. Strrength isn't Continuous and that's what it takes to inflict damange over time without a new Attack roll, but it just doesn't seem to make much sense in real terms. You're got a grip, you're just applying pressure, twisting or whatever. You get odd odd situation where a slower but strong attacker can't damage a weaker but agile one that they have in a hold but the agile character can't get free.

 

Dexterity based skills can, unfortunately lead to a situation where theives and other deft types are also the more effective fighters in the group because the combat values will be naturally high due to their high Dex. The reverse doesn't happen right off since you actually have to by skills like Lockpicking, Stealth, etc to be able to pull them off.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Maybe its not bizarre but I just don't like the fact that if you establish a Grab that' date=' after the inistial phase, you make a new attack roll if you want to actually inflict damage. I understand the underlying game balance reason for it I beleive. Strrength isn't Continuous and that's what it takes to inflict damange over time without a new Attack roll, but it just doesn't seem to make much sense in real terms. You're got a grip, you're just applying pressure, twisting or whatever. You get odd odd situation where a slower but strong attacker can't damage a weaker but agile one that they have in a hold but the agile character can't get free. [/quote']

 

I've had that same problem in some games. Imagine there's a normal but agile cat (STR -10, DEX 18), and a big dumb thug (STR 20, DEX 11). If the cat attempts to grab the thug, there is no chance, the thug breaks free automatically using casual STR. No chance of the cat ever even attempting crushing damage. But if the thug manages to get ahold of the cat, perhaps due to a lucky roll, it still takes that lucky roll to crush the cat, even though logically there is no chance for the cat to do anything about it. In these cases, I occasionally CV to be based on STR instead of DEX. The general guideline I use is if the attacker has enough STR to break out of a grab from his target using only Casual STR, then he can force his crush attacks to use STR for CV instead of DEX.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

I've had that same problem in some games. Imagine there's a normal but agile cat (STR -10' date=' DEX 18), and a big dumb thug (STR 20, DEX 11). If the cat attempts to grab the thug, there is no chance, the thug breaks free automatically using casual STR. No chance of the cat ever even attempting crushing damage. But if the thug manages to get ahold of the cat, perhaps due to a lucky roll, it still takes that lucky roll to crush the cat, even though logically there is no chance for the cat to do anything about it. In these cases, I occasionally CV to be based on STR instead of DEX. The general guideline I use is if the attacker has enough STR to break out of a grab from his target using only Casual STR, then he can force his crush attacks to use STR for CV instead of DEX.[/quote']

 

In fairness, try holding onto the cat once it is grabbed - keeping a grip may be do-able, but maintaining a good enough grip to consistently inflict damage isn't as automatic. [Then again, I've never set out to strangle the cat, so maybe that has something to do with it.]

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

In fairness' date=' try holding onto the cat once it is grabbed - keeping a grip may be do-able, but maintaining a good enough grip to consistently inflict damage isn't as automatic. [Then again, I've never set out to strangle the cat, so maybe that has something to do with it.']

 

Owning four cats, one of them VERY squirmy, I can state with some nonexistant authority that it *is* difficult to keep a grip on them.

 

The thoughtwave I'm getting more out of the 'must make to-hit roll to squeeze' is that the target will be resisting, squirming, writhing, biting, whatever he can do to avoid you putting the squeeze on him, thus it's somewhat more difficult. Admittedly, IIRC a Grabbed target's DCV is halved, so it won't be THAT difficult, but still ... I've missed a Crush before.

 

And, heck, Crush requires a to-hit, so at the very least, this synchs it up.

[Mike W]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

I think the strangest thing for me was/are the rules for handling characters changing SPD. I was playing a metamorph who would sometimes change SPD based on what animal he was modeling his powers after. So if I go for a rhino, slow speed, lots of strength; falcon form was obviously much fast and more mobile(it wasn't a total Beast Boy ripoff because I was only buying traits not the whole new shape), but the rules for changing SPD said I had to wait until both shapes had an action on the same phase seemed silly. I mean, if I changed from rhino to falcon on phase 12, I would have to wait until phase 8 on the next turn to go, longer than even the slowest character, even though I had above average SPD and DEX. We ended up ruling that I had to wait until after both forms would have had a phase, for me to go, but they didn't have to match(and I got "free" changes on 12). Has anyone else had issues with this problem?

[Mike W]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

I've had that same problem in some games. Imagine there's a normal but agile cat (STR -10' date=' DEX 18), and a big dumb thug (STR 20, DEX 11). If the cat attempts to grab the thug, there is no chance, the thug breaks free automatically using casual STR. No chance of the cat ever even attempting crushing damage. But if the thug manages to get ahold of the cat, perhaps due to a lucky roll, it still takes that lucky roll to crush the cat, even though logically there is no chance for the cat to do anything about it. In these cases, I occasionally CV to be based on STR instead of DEX. The general guideline I use is if the attacker has enough STR to break out of a grab from his target using only Casual STR, then he can force his crush attacks to use STR for CV instead of DEX.[/quote']

 

I've never played where you had to make an attack roll to apply damage after making a grab as long as you weren't changing your grip. If you want to change to a choke hold, sorry,that's another roll, but if you just want to crush someone's ribs after putting them in a bearhug, just roll damage. Now the escape rules...I do think they need to have more room for someone who is agile to escape, especially where there is a big size difference involved. I used to use that to my advantage when I was a kid. I got picked on a lot, in part because I was much smaller than everyone else, on the other hand, when they tried to grab me, especially those "full nelson" moves from the kids who watched wrestling, it didn't work very well because while they were much stronger, I was so small that they couldn't "lock it in" properly and I was able to slip out of almost any such hold.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

I think the strangest thing for me was/are the rules for handling characters changing SPD. I was playing a metamorph who would sometimes change SPD based on what animal he was modeling his powers after. So if I go for a rhino' date=' slow speed, lots of strength; falcon form was obviously much fast and more mobile(it wasn't a total Beast Boy ripoff because I was only buying traits not the whole new shape), but the rules for changing SPD said I had to wait until both shapes had an action on the same phase seemed silly. I mean, if I changed from rhino to falcon on phase 12, I would have to wait until phase 8 on the next turn to go, longer than even the slowest character, even though I had above average SPD and DEX. We ended up ruling that I had to wait until after both forms would have had a phase, for me to go, but they didn't have to match(and I got "free" changes on 12). Has anyone else had issues with this problem?[/quote']

 

I think the way you did it is actually the way it's supposed to work. The text, and the example therein, are somewhat ambiguous and confusing, at least to me, but I do think the rule is that each SPD has to have 'had a phase pass', not that both had to be simultaneous.

[Mike W]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

I think the way you did it is actually the way it's supposed to work. The text' date=' and the example therein, are somewhat ambiguous and confusing, at least to me, but I do think the rule is that each SPD has to have 'had a phase pass', not that both had to be simultaneous.[/quote']

 

I would hope so. But the example didn't make it look that way.

[nexus]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

I've never played where you had to make an attack roll to apply damage after making a grab as long as you weren't changing your grip. If you want to change to a choke hold' date=' sorry,that's another roll, but if you just want to crush someone's ribs after putting them in a bearhug, just roll damage. Now the escape rules...I do think they need to have more room for someone who is agile to escape, especially where there is a big size difference involved. I used to use that to my advantage when I was a kid. I got picked on a lot, in part because I was much smaller than everyone else, on the other hand, when they tried to grab me, especially those "full nelson" moves from the kids who watched wrestling, it didn't work very well because while they were much stronger, I was so small that they couldn't "lock it in" properly and I was able to slip out of almost any such hold.[/quote']

 

You can use a Contortionist rolls to add dice to your Escape attempt but that's IIRC.

 

And you were playing it correcntly in Fourth. Damage was automatic unless you wanted shift holds

[nexus]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Owning four cats, one of them VERY squirmy, I can state with some nonexistant authority that it *is* difficult to keep a grip on them.

 

The thoughtwave I'm getting more out of the 'must make to-hit roll to squeeze' is that the target will be resisting, squirming, writhing, biting, whatever he can do to avoid you putting the squeeze on him, thus it's somewhat more difficult. Admittedly, IIRC a Grabbed target's DCV is halved, so it won't be THAT difficult, but still ... I've missed a Crush before.

 

And, heck, Crush requires a to-hit, so at the very least, this synchs it up.

 

Formerly, Crush required a to hit roll if applying it to someone already in, for examples, Martial Grab. Once you applied the Crush (Which had to follow a Grab), IIRC, you didn't have to keeop making new attack rolls, you just received the extra damage. Crush is sometimes deifined as Bearhug and hard to see a Bearhug "missing" once you have someone in it.

 

The cat thing is kind of an extreme example. It has merit don't think that's its a situation that would up enough times to really what the system should be aiming to model. The way a typical Grab is defined (holds two limbs, target can't move until released, etc) its hard to picture having someone in the position and being unable to squeeze, twist or apply your strength to hurt them. It use a Superheroic exampled, a brick could luck out and grab a character with his completely in his but he'd have to make another attack roll to tightened his grip. The shrinker's DCV would be halved but with bonus for shrinking he could pull it off. (And strangely enough, a character 3 inches could grab a full sized character with problem....).

 

Maybe there should be granularity in the Grab action like different levels of Grab from Held (your movement and actions are restricticted but no damage inflicted) to Grabbed (Basic Grab, hit toll to inflict damage) to Full Incapiciated (Damage is automatic, character can be thrown, moved, etc, with no roll).

[prestidigitator]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Ever seen a wrestling match (no not, "Pro. Wrestling" ; real wrestling)? A good opponent makes it awfully difficult to keep a particual hold for long, even if you do manage to stay with them and maintain the advantage.

 

Remember that in the initial Phase you can immediately Squeeze for damage after your Grab succeeds (without a second attack roll).

[nexus]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Ever seen a wrestling match (no not' date=' "Pro. Wrestling" ; [i']real[/i] wrestling)? A good opponent makes it awfully difficult to keep a particual hold for long, even if you do manage to stay with them and maintain the advantage.

 

Yes, I have and I have partcipated in them too, though not with professional athletes. IME, the combants aren't trying to inflict damage to knock each other out, but competing to pin and for points which would be a Strength vs Strength rolls mostly in Hero, to control.

 

I've seen people grappling when they're trying to actually hurt each other and been in that position unfortunately. I'm not the most nimble person in the world by stretch of the imagination but once I held a decent grip I didn't "miss" being able inflict pain (stun).

 

Remember that in the initial Phase you can immediately Squeeze for damage after your Grab succeeds (without a second attack roll).

 

Yes, I know. It still seems odd the Grab rules assume you still have your target pretty fully held but you still have to roll to "hit" to inflict damage. As I've said, I find it difficult to picture how you can have someone in a Bear Hug or a choke and not do damage for them for several seconds (up to six or more if you're using relative normal characters with spd 2). I interpret the squriming and struggling for advantage as the special of the two combants making multiple grab attempts aginast each other (or Reversal attempts) or failing the attack rolles needed to change holds (to go from Grab to a Crush, Throw or Pin Manuver).

 

It seems like a game balance concern or being really literal around the rules (Strength is not Continous so your must roll to hit again to inflict damage but Grabs are free "Entangle" type effects and are assume to be "Continous" just like the power). I've run without the attack roll for years and I haven't seen Grab becoming particularly imbalanced, but EMMV.

 

Like I mentioned I could get behind a more fleshed out system for Grabs that took into account most of what is currently assumed.

[Bloodstone]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

As a wrestler and martial artist, I find the grappling rules in most game systems are just not up to snuff. I usually try to rewrite them, but we almost never end up using my rewrites because I apparently make things far too complex

 

As for bizarre rules issues: adding damage to advantaged attacks took a while and caused many long pauses. I'm still not 100% sure that we always do it right, but if we're wrong at least we are consistently wrong!

[Dust Raven]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Now I'm not talking about wrestlers fighting wrestlers, or even anything remotely similar to two characters of similar abilities, particularly STR, grappling. I'm talking about a situation where one character completely outclases the other. Somthing like Grond (STR 90, DEX 15) grabs the uncommonly agile normal (STR 10, DEX 30). Should Grond get lucky (perhaps the normal was unconscious or Entangled at the time), he could grab the normal. Assuming that after being grabbed, the normal is no longer unconscious or Entangled (wakes up normally or the Entangle breaks when Grond squeezes). The grabbed guy has absolutely no chance of escaping using STR alone, and had better hope he has lots of Contortionist to try to slip out. Assume for a moment he doesn't. Normally, Grond will have a hell of a time squishing him. It's almost impossible actually. Try as he might, this normal just for some reason won't squish like a tube of toothpaste like he should. Somehow, he keeps moving even though he lacks to STR to even budge Grond's hold. Grond sould be able to squeeze at lot easier.

[nexus]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Maybe on intial phase a Grab hits the two character make a Strength vs Strenth roll. The margin of success for Grabber determines the level of hold he has on the target? Is subsequent phases, the attacker can attempt to increase this level while defender can try to decrease it with more Strength vs Strength (or possibly Dex if they have Contortionist) checks?

 

That could be adding too many die rolls though.

[Lucius]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

As a wrestler and martial artist, I find the grappling rules in most game systems are just not up to snuff. I usually try to rewrite them, but we almost never end up using my rewrites because I apparently make things far too complex

 

As for bizarre rules issues: adding damage to advantaged attacks took a while and caused many long pauses. I'm still not 100% sure that we always do it right, but if we're wrong at least we are consistently wrong!

 

I'm not sure anyone gets those right.....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary finds them hard to chew

[Frenchman]

Re: What bizarre rules issues have you encountered?

 

Normally' date=' Grond will have a hell of a time squishing him. It's almost impossible actually. Try as he might, this normal just for some reason won't squish like a tube of toothpaste like he should. Somehow, he keeps moving even though he lacks to STR to even budge Grond's hold. Grond sould be able to squeeze at lot easier.[/quote']

Actually, by the book, Grond would have an 11- chance of squishing hime each phase. Grond gets his full OCV (5) plus any csls he has (assume none) vs 1/2 of his victims base DCV (csls don't apply, I think)

OCV 5 vs. DCV 5

Grond might miss once or twice, but it wont be long before 30 DEX-Man is paste. And with 30 DEX, it isn't unreasonable to think he might be able to squirm himself a few extra seconds of life