Daylight Spell

[Glupii]

I want to create a duplicate of the Daylight Spell from D20 D&D. This spell will not only crant light (Which I know would be images at +4) but also dispel darkness (so link in a dispel vs. darkness) AND I want the light bright enough that it is just like full daylight. I want it to be such that if a critter like orcs and such have disad's about opperating in daylight, that they kick in within the area of effect. If a vampire is caught in this area of effect, he begins taking damage imeediatly just like if he was caught outside after dawn. I want creatures that depend on darkness (shadows come to mind) to be forced outside the area of effect.

 

Thoughts on this? Would I just buy the Pluses to perception on the Images up to like +8? or more?

[sbarron]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

Wow, that's tricky. Maybe transform "light" into "daylight?" It seems like it would need to be pretty expensive, because beasties that are susceptable to light should be moderately sure that after the sun goes down, they're pretty safe.

 

It could also just be the special effect of the power, that the light that is generated is actual daylight, and not just light. Based on your GMs opinion, of course. This seems the way to go to me, with maybe a premium charged depending on how frequently you'll encounter baddies that will be affected by this daylight spell.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

A Change Environment would work for the blinding

RKA for the Melting

Forcewall for the Shadows

 

very expensive.

Sbarron is probably right. Have "Daylight" be the special effect and everything else be effected by that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

I'm in agreeance with my esteemed board memebers. Daylight should be the SFX of the spell. Don't try and model Powers to take advantage of Vulnerabilities and Susectabilities - those are modeled to be vs certain SFX, so a properly defined SFX of a power is all the User of the Power needs.

[Ndreare]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

Well you could go the easy way or...

 

Use the "Gate" option for teleport and open a gate to either 1000 miles from the surfase of the sun or open it to a place where there is daylight.

 

In our games we have built this as Images linked to change environment. But the gate option does sound good.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

The problem with making daylight purely a SFX and then build it as an RKA or Change Environment is that for all of the creatures with special susceptibilities to Daylight in general all have unique susceptibilities.

 

Vampires: Burn, Orcs: Combat Penalties due to bad eyesight, Tolkien Trolls: Petrification.

 

Is there a way to define the daylight as what it physically does, create light and then just rule that it has the quality of "Daylight" as it's SFX and that it triggers whatever susceptibilities the beasties have.

 

After all, the monsters got a point bonus for taking the susceptibility, why should the Player pay a penalty for the monster's Disadvantage.

 

TB

[ghost-angel]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

The problem with making daylight purely a SFX and then build it as an RKA or Change Environment is that for all of the creatures with special susceptibilities to Daylight in general all have unique susceptibilities.

 

Vampires: Burn, Orcs: Combat Penalties due to bad eyesight, Tolkien Trolls: Petrification.

 

Is there a way to define the daylight as what it physically does, create light and then just rule that it has the quality of "Daylight" as it's SFX and that it triggers whatever susceptibilities the beasties have.

 

After all, the monsters got a point bonus for taking the susceptibility, why should the Player pay a penalty for the monster's Disadvantage.

 

TB

Exactly.

 

Images: Only To Create Light SFX - Daylight should be all you need, whatever Suseceptility or Vulnerability, or any other Physical Limitations/Penalties get triggered off of that.

[Glupii]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

The problem with Change environment is that it does not allow you to create light. So I had to go with the images power. OK so it seems the consensus is that I should just to it as Images linked with a dispel and let the SFX handle the rest. It is for my game world (as in I am the GM) so I can say the spell is expensive enough to justify it and just rule that it does that. I might add an expensive material component to it to keep it from becoming too commonly used. Thanks for the input folks.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Provider=Killer%20Shrike#Daylight

[Ndreare]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

The problem with Change environment is that it does not allow you to create light. So I had to go with the images power. OK so it seems the consensus is that I should just to it as Images linked with a dispel and let the SFX handle the rest. It is for my game world (as in I am the GM) so I can say the spell is expensive enough to justify it and just rule that it does that. I might add an expensive material component to it to keep it from becoming too commonly used. Thanks for the input folks.

 

Let it be common. How much will it matter that a PC can create Daylight? Some times as a player it is the little things like that that we love to have. If a player can defeat a chalenge by scaring it away with sunlight he will get a chance to feel just as cool as if he had killed it with fireballs most of the time.

 

I know in Palladium "Globe of Daylight" is a spell known to very first level wizard and every first level Air Worlock. Also 90% of witches, & Sorcerors will know it.

[Frenchman]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

If you are afraid of every spellcaster and then some buying a basic images spell with a couple limitations on it for 3 points, then define a certain level of images needed for it to be "daylight" - like +4 to PER

Also, instead of linking a dispel darkness, a nifty mechanic would be to require all darkness spells to have the "RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests" limitation (assuming your magic uses RSR), and allow the daylight spell to oppose the darkness spell.

just a thought

[keithcurtis]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

Exactly.

 

Images: Only To Create Light SFX - Daylight should be all you need, whatever Suseceptility or Vulnerability, or any other Physical Limitations/Penalties get triggered off of that.

This is exactly the way I do it. If a GM think's it's too powerful (ie, using a lot of vampires), then limit it. Require rare components, long casting times, etc.

 

Keith "Just because a player has the points, doesn't mean they can buy any power they want." Curtis

[prestidigitator]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

If you are afraid of every spellcaster and then some buying a basic images spell with a couple limitations on it for 3 points' date=' then define a certain level of images needed for it to be "daylight" - like +4 to PER[/quote']

I think the Nightvision Enchanced Sense sets the precedence for the +4. It allows a character to, "see in total darkness (...) as if it were normal daylight," and is bought as a +4 Per bonus limited to only counteract darkness penalties. So I think Images with +4 to Per are perfectly justified as creating a, "daylight," level of light in the area they affect. Outside the area of the Images the Per bonus is going to start to fall off, of course.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

Images has always bothered me as a light spell. +4 counters nighttime penalties. But absolute darkness (say, like in a cave), vision should be flat out impossible. +1000 shouldn't be enough if there's no light to begin with.

 

In 4th Ed. I used Environmental Change, but even that has evolved into a collection of specific game effects.

 

Sometimes I feel like a power like Darkness, but in reverse is the answer. But I dislike creating entire wholecloth powers in HERO if some existing construction cannot be used.

 

Keeping in mind that Images is the accepted build, are there any other ideas on how to make a flashlight?

 

Keith "?" Curtis

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

Images has always bothered me as a light spell. +4 counters nighttime penalties. But absolute darkness (say, like in a cave), vision should be flat out impossible. +1000 shouldn't be enough if there's no light to begin with.

 

In 4th Ed. I used Environmental Change, but even that has evolved into a collection of specific game effects.

 

Sometimes I feel like a power like Darkness, but in reverse is the answer. But I dislike creating entire wholecloth powers in HERO if some existing construction cannot be used.

 

Keeping in mind that Images is the accepted build, are there any other ideas on how to make a flashlight?

 

Keith "?" Curtis

 

http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/HEROEquipmentDebunk.htm#THE%20FLASHLIGHT%20COMPLAINT

[GreyGuardian]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

If you are afraid of every spellcaster and then some buying a basic images spell with a couple limitations on it for 3 points, then define a certain level of images needed for it to be "daylight" - like +4 to PER

Also, instead of linking a dispel darkness, a nifty mechanic would be to require all darkness spells to have the "RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests" limitation (assuming your magic uses RSR), and allow the daylight spell to oppose the darkness spell.

just a thought

 

 

Nifty idea... I wouldn't think this is worth a limitation bonus though, it is more of an element of the spell system design... but a skill contest of who made their roll by more might be a good mechanic for all opposite effects. Although this would require tracking the casting skill roll for any continuous effect that doesn't have to be maintained by endurance (say an extended charge - darkness lasts for one hour.... )

[keithcurtis]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/HEROEquipmentDebunk.htm#THE%20FLASHLIGHT%20COMPLAINT

Cool article, but it more addresses the philosophy of how to handle equipment (points vs money). The flashlight power still comes from Images.

 

Keith "It's clunky, like creating gravity" Curtis

[Enforcer84]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

Cool article, but it more addresses the philosophy of how to handle equipment (points vs money). The flashlight power still comes from Images.

 

Keith "It's clunky, like creating gravity" Curtis

I know when I created Gravity it was a handful.

 

-God

[ghost-angel]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

Cool article, but it more addresses the philosophy of how to handle equipment (points vs money). The flashlight power still comes from Images.

 

Keith "It's clunky, like creating gravity" Curtis

I guess I just don't see it as being clunky... But:

 

Lightbulb-

15pt Detect: Physical Objects; Disriminatory, Analyze, Sense, OAF, Usable By Others: Lots!, Arc of Perception adjusted as appropriate.

 

Now that's clunky.

 

Lightbulb

Images; Only To Create Light, +4 PER, 4" Radius.

 

Doesn't look so bad now does it?

[keithcurtis]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

Oh, I agree that the write-up is simple. It just smacks of, "because I couldn't find a better way to do it so let's get on with the game and not dwell on it" logic.

 

Artificial Gravity's official write up is the same way. 5 points of TK, only to pull objects straight down to the floor (-1). Going by the game mechanics, all objects would "weigh" exactly 50kg. That is they would resist being lifted by 5 STR.

It makes no real sense, just like +4 to sight PER rolls has no meaning when a sight PER roll is technically not even possible. It's a quickie fix that looks good on paper until you start to use it.

 

It's a good thing that I almost never stat out equipment. A flashlight is a thing you buy. You point it and it shines light on stuff. It's when you have to buy stuff as spells and powers that it becomes a problem (admittedly, just for me).

 

Keith "ornery cuss" Curtis

[ghost-angel]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

Artificial Gravity's official write up is the same way. 5 points of TK, only to pull objects straight down to the floor (-1). Going by the game mechanics, all objects would "weigh" exactly 50kg. That is they would resist being lifted by 5 STR.

 

It makes no real sense, just like +4 to sight PER rolls has no meaning when a sight PER roll is technically not even possible. It's a quickie fix that looks good on paper until you start to use it.

 

It's a good thing that I almost never stat out equipment. A flashlight is a thing you buy. You point it and it shines light on stuff. It's when you have to buy stuff as spells and powers that it becomes a problem (admittedly, just for me).

 

Keith "ornery cuss" Curtis

Ok, the gravity one is kind of weird... but it is intended in a place where there is no "pull" at all, so any pull should make you go in that direction, stopping until you reach a solid surface. Looked at as a "pull in direction X" instead of "lifting weight" I see little issue, on the surface where there is real "gravity" it would be a mere inconvenience...

 

As for the +4 PER ... personally my writeups don't contain that aspect, I just do Images, 4" Radius, Only To Create Light (or whatever Radius/AoE is approriate) and you get your normal, or worse, perception for the area. All you have is light up to base level. But that's my take.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

Images has always bothered me as a light spell. +4 counters nighttime penalties. But absolute darkness (say' date=' like in a cave), vision should be flat out impossible. +1000 shouldn't be enough if there's no light to begin with.[/quote']

I'm not horribly fond of it either, but it is there. Since Images can create light even without an explicit Per bonus bought for it, I'd say a +4 set by the Nightvision precident seems like a reasonable level for, "daylight," within the Images' area, that's all.

 

I personally rather like(d) Change Environment for creating light as well. I've even built light-creating effects that way a few times (if the Images Per penalty can be flipped into a bonus, why can't the Change Envoriment Per penalty be?) since and despite the Images ruling, though I usually use Images for it now too. Grr.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Daylight Spell

 

One of the arguements I have For using Change Environment is the Long Lasting Adder... it's the easiest way to create magical globes of everlasting light or magical torches that never ever go out - but aren't actual fire.