Draining SPD to Zero

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

I can say I never watched that episode. I'm gladdened by this.

 

Where's my hat? Oh yes.

 

You can build an Entangle that provides enough DEF to the target that they don't take damage - such as a 'breathable plastic shell' that can't be broken through except by extreme force.

 

You can build an Entangle that provides enough DEF that you're simply making the SFX "frozen in time" without touching their SPD in the slightest.

 

You can reduce the SPD to 0, but they can still get tagged.

 

Or, you can XDM them to 'in between points in time' and spend END every round to keep them there, or build it as a Continuous Charge to keep them there for a set period of time.

[oryanfactor]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

As a defense, one could create Time Defense, which allows the target to shift the effect of XDM down the time chart for every point of DEF in the power, sort of like Power Defense, etc.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

See' date=' in the Potato Man example, the character has been "frozen", either in time or in physical form, but there's several places to go from there. Just "saying he's in stasis" is the unfair route. That doesn't give the player an "out".[/quote']Sure it does. It depends on how the GM defines stasis. I can already tell you my definition differs markedly from yours. To me "stasis" means literally frozen in time; between ticks of the cosmic clock. That allows for no actions on the part of the person so afflicted, because if time isn't progressing neither are thought processes. I'm pretty much using the stasis definition from Larry Niven's Known Space stories, where stasis fields are used as the equivalent of airbags to allow space travellers to survive crash landings from space or aliens to survive for a billion years imprisoned in a stasis field. It appears to me that you are defining "stasis" as being essentially frozen in place. By no means am I implying your definition is wrong, it's just different from mine.

 

Lastly, being placed at SPD 0, the character would be truely frozen in game terms, no actions are allowed. In that situation, which is very "game legal", the villian should not be able to walk up and punch the character in the mouth while the hero is frozen.

And that's why Entangle makes more sense for what you're trying to do than a SPD Drain or XDM: The Entangle protects the imprisoned hero from attacks; but he still has Actions, can still think, and might be able to use a "mental" power such as Teleport or XDM to escape. From a system perspective it doesn't matter if the Entangle is defined as being stuck in a block of ice, tied up in a web, or held in a stasis field. Just make the Entangle strong enough that he can't break out of it (or the villains in!) physically.

 

If you want to be really evil you can combine an Entangle with a SPD Drain into a combination attack Power...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

It's the default title you get as a new poster. The title will change as your post count increases' date=' to Competent Normal, Low Powered Superhero, etc. I think the top level is Cosmic Level Superhero at 700+ posts.[/quote']

 

At 1,000 it goes to Milleneal Master, with further prefixes added as we get 1,000's more. Some of us don't select a custom title (or an avatar, or a signature line, or a creative screen name...)

[oryanfactor]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Say Hugh,

 

Then how do you get those "rep" things? the little green pips?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Say Hugh,

 

Then how do you get those "rep" things? the little green pips?

 

Check your User CP (link at the top of the screen) and you can see who's given you REP - it's linked to the points they award you REP for. Every 100 REP adds a dark green box to about 5 boxes, after which it's a light green box for every 200 rep until the line runs out of space.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Lastly' date=' being placed at SPD 0, the character would be truely [i']frozen[/i] in game terms, no actions are allowed. In that situation, which is very "game legal", the villian should not be able to walk up and punch the character in the mouth while the hero is frozen.

The problem here is SPD 0 really means The Character Has No Actions Themselves.

 

A Table, for instance, has a SPD 0, but you can still punch it and break it.

 

Reducing a characters SPD to 0 won't prevent you from interacting with them - it will prevent them from reacting back. That's all.

 

If you don't want to interact with them in any way you can also add: Desolid, UAA, Linked to SPD Drain, SPD Must be drained to 0 before Desol takes effect, affected by Temporal Powers.

 

Now they're stuck in place and no longer interacting with the world at large.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

As a defense' date=' one could create Time Defense, which allows the target to shift the effect of XDM down the time chart for every point of DEF in the power, sort of like Power Defense, etc.[/quote']

According to Steve Long, Power Defense applies (by default) against most UAA powers, so technically it should already work against that UAA EDM somehow.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

According to Steve Long' date=' Power Defense applies (by default) against most UAA powers, so technically it should already work against that UAA EDM [i']somehow[/i].

I've been trying to figure out what the appropriate DEF is and how to apply it to a EDM:UAA for sometime now...

 

In the end we (Myself and the GM) decided to base it of SFX (the lack of a soul in the specific case we dealt with).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

GAH... how on Earth does Power Defense apply vs. XDM?! It's a built power with a set effect; it's not doing 'points' of damage.

 

Unless. The Saving Throw (on RSR) were to be modified by the points you have in Power Defense. So if you need to make an Ego roll to avoid being popped out of this dimension, you could apply your points of Power Defense to modify the roll.

 

That makes sense, is consistent with how I would do it, and remains balanced.

 

Oh, and I missed if this was explained or not. Little green boxes are Rep. You gain Rep when you say something witty and someone clicks on the scale on the post you wrote (in the upper right, next the post count on the thread itself). You only begin to show rep once you have 50 normal (i.e., non-NGD) posts. Most people get the bulk of their rep from the NGD. Also, you cannot truly grant rep until you're at 50 posts.

[ideasmith]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

GAH... how on Earth does Power Defense apply vs. XDM?! It's a built power with a set effect; it's not doing 'points' of damage.

 

5ER, page 275: "The character must define a reasonable common set of defenses that cancels out the attack. For example, Flight UAA might not work against any character who had Flight, Desolidification, or Power Defense."

 

In other words it functions as and NND defence.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

GAH... how on Earth does Power Defense apply vs. XDM?! It's a built power with a set effect; it's not doing 'points' of damage.

I know. Hence my own confusion. I suppose at the worst you could just say an equivalent number of Active Points in PowD nullifies the attack, but that's an AWFULLY high number of Active Points for a Defense. Maybe multiply the PowD APs by 3/2 compare it to Base Points intead, and allow it to cancel some Adders first when appropriate (such as decreasing the time increments for time travel applications as suggested)? Beats me.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

5ER, page 275: "The character must define a reasonable common set of defenses that cancels out the attack. For example, Flight UAA might not work against any character who had Flight, Desolidification, or Power Defense."

 

In other words it functions as and NND defence.

No way. I won't go there. It means 1 point of Power Defense makes you immune to just about all UAA powers. That's far too easy of a defense. However, for the Flight example given, it is not an all-or-nothing effect; you could easily say each point of PowD cancels a hex of Flight. That would seem fair (defense is half the cost of the Base Points in the, "attack," and even less expensive if you compare the Active Points that are going to be required).

[ideasmith]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

No way. I won't go there. It means 1 point of Power Defense makes you immune to just about all UAA powers. That's far too easy of a defense. However' date=' for the Flight example given, it is [i']not[/i] an all-or-nothing effect; you could easily say each point of PowD cancels a hex of Flight. That would seem fair (defense is half the cost of the Base Points in the, "attack," and even less expensive if you compare the Active Points that are going to be required).

 

If you don't like the rule, you can house-rule it away. But that is the official rule. Has been since UAA was introduced in 4th Edition. Personally, I consider UAA overpowerful as it is.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

No way. I won't go there. It means 1 point of Power Defense makes you immune to just about all UAA powers. That's far too easy of a defense. However' date=' for the Flight example given, it is [i']not[/i] an all-or-nothing effect; you could easily say each point of PowD cancels a hex of Flight. That would seem fair (defense is half the cost of the Base Points in the, "attack," and even less expensive if you compare the Active Points that are going to be required).

I would do the same, for movement powers measured in inches, each point of Power Defense cancels out an inch of the UAA Movement.

 

It's the weird ones like Desol, XDM, et cetera that have set effects instead of measured effects.

[gojira]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

But you could require x amounts of points in the Power Defense, and/or an appropriate SFX.

 

For example, for a "neural transmogafier" requires, duh, nerve ending, Save in High Preassure or Safe in Vacumn Life Support is a reasonable defense, with the special effect that the character is sealed somehow against the environment. 3 points of LS "Long Lived" doesn't cut it.

 

Similarily, 5 points of Power Defense, with a reasonable SFX that the character is protected against energy transfers (vs. say, Power Defense that represents an "inherent" power) might work. So Iron Man's EMP sheilding might also save him from neural transmorgafication.

 

I don't mind defining point levels for special defenses. If there are a lot of different defenses, then higher point levels are ok. OTOH, if the only thing that will stop the neural transmorgafier is Power Defense, then probably 1 point is all it's going to take.

[austenandrews]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

If a SPD 6 guy borrows a SPD 4 character's gas grenades' date=' I'd rule they work on the SPD 4's Phases regardless of who threw them. That's just common sense; and prohibits players from handing all their Continuous weapons to the speedster for maximum effect.[/quote']

Gas Dispersion Efficiency: +5 SPD, Only To Increase Continuous Damage Phases

[Lucius]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

The problem here is SPD 0 really means The Character Has No Actions Themselves.

 

A Table, for instance, has a SPD 0, but you can still punch it and break it.

 

Reducing a characters SPD to 0 won't prevent you from interacting with them - it will prevent them from reacting back. That's all.

 

If you don't want to interact with them in any way you can also add: Desolid, UAA, Linked to SPD Drain, SPD Must be drained to 0 before Desol takes effect, affected by Temporal Powers.

 

Now they're stuck in place and no longer interacting with the world at large.

 

Given that it sounds like this would usually be used as an attack, and the attacker would probably prefer to be able to go on attacking the victim physically and might be prevented from doing so by the special effects of the power, I think this may actually qualify as Side Effects.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon: Lucius Alexander, Side Effects: The palindromedary appears too.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Given that it sounds like this would usually be used as an attack' date=' and the attacker would probably [i']prefer[/i] to be able to go on attacking the victim physically and might be prevented from doing so by the special effects of the power, I think this may actually qualify as Side Effects.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon: Lucius Alexander, Side Effects: The palindromedary appears too.

Possibly. Either way something else needs to be with the Drain SPD to pull the character out of actual interaction with the "moving" world.

[Lucius]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Possibly. Either way something else needs to be with the Drain SPD to pull the character out of actual interaction with the "moving" world.

 

If the character with the power will sometimes use it specifically FOR the "Side Effect" - such as in self-defense - perhaps it's a -0 Limitation Side Effects.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon: Palindromedary, Side Effects: it arrives with Lucius Alexander

[ghost-angel]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

If the character with the power will sometimes use it specifically FOR the "Side Effect" - such as in self-defense - perhaps it's a -0 Limitation Side Effects.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon: Palindromedary, Side Effects: it arrives with Lucius Alexander

Well, see that's one of the reasons I think Desol should be in there... Don't know how many times our Temporal Manipulator has stopped people JUST to avoid having to fight them.

[Lucius]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

By "self defense" I meant rendering HIMSELF "desolid."

 

"Avoiding having to fight them" isn't a "Side Effect" it's the DIRECT effect of draining their SPD to zero.

 

Being unable to hurt them while they're immobilized would be the "Side Effect."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an invisible desolidified palindromedary

[prestidigitator]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Right. Or use it on a teammate/bystander to keep them out of harm's reach for a while.

 

The way I usually treat this situation is to buy it as a Mutlpower: Slot 1.) Drain Speed with Desolidification Side Effects (used on enemies); Slot 2.) Desolidification with Drain Speed Side Effects (used on allies).

[Lucius]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Right. Or use it on a teammate/bystander to keep them out of harm's reach for a while.

 

The way I usually treat this situation is to buy it as a Mutlpower: Slot 1.) Drain Speed with Desolidification Side Effects (used on enemies); Slot 2.) Desolidification with Drain Speed Side Effects (used on allies).

 

That's brilliant.

 

Edit: But now I think of it, it's scary you "usually treat this situation" - as if this particular kind of power is COMMON in your games....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks it even sounds balanced.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Edit: But now I think of it' date=' it's scary you "usually treat this situation" - as if this particular kind of power is COMMON in your games....[/quote']

Well, it has come up now and then. I convert a lot of spells and such (or did). Actually similar issues have come up on the boards (probably) just as often. The general idea being that of a double-sided power, whose side effects would be beneficial to an ally (or the character) and main effect would be detrimental.