What should I have done? (Tactical advice)

[BenKimball]

In last week's game our group of heroes was stymied by one villian's Darkness to Sight Group power. We were fighting the Crowns of Krim (sp?) and had taken down Temblor and the blood demon (I don't remember his name). The last remaining attacker decided to retreat, and picking up one of his comrades began to fly away. Ordinarily this would post no problem for us, but he then turned on his 4" AoE Darkness to Sight Group power, centered on himself.

 

Now, I'm playing a Dr. Strange-like character with a 45-point "Elemental Magic" VPP. I know that the fleeing villian is hurting. First, I ask the GM if the special effect of my fire EB will counter the bad guy's darkness. No luck; it's supernatural darkness. OK, so I start firing away with my EB anyway. I'm at 1/2 OCV shooting into the darkness (no enhanced senses), so that's a 6, minus 6 for range. I think the bad guy has a DCV of about 7. I need a 4. I miss; he gets away.

 

I can't help feeling like I missed something. So, my question to all you more experienced HERO champs out there: what 45-point elemental magic power would you have tried in order to bring down the demon? A big "wind vortex" Entangle? A "fireball" EB with AoE? Can you even target a hex that you can't see?

 

Cheers!

Ben

[Gary]

Possibly a 12-14 PD 0 ED forcewall with enough area to englobe the villain. If the villain doesn't have an energy attack, he'll be stopped cold. If he has an energy attack, he has to keep knocking down the wall each phase, using his attack action, buying time for the rest of the team to stop him.

[Lord Liaden]

Does your Elemental Magic effects include light-based powers? If so, you could go with a light-based Dispel vs. Darkness; that's even one of the examples suggested in FREd under Dispel. With 45 pts. you can throw 15D6 of Dispel, with a good chance of disrupting 50-60 Active Points of Darkness and leaving the villain exposed to attacks or pursuit by your teammates.

 

As far as making a successful attack roll goes, I'm not sure what the official answer would be about penalties due to the effects of Darkness, but I've always ruled that since you're attacking the Darkness with your Dispel rather than the character, and the Darkness covers an area, you can just target the Darkness as you would a normal hex. I think I'll go check the FAQ, though.

[BenKimball]

I like the force wall. Very creative.

 

I'm not sure on the light-based power thing, but only because I don't know the demon's special effect on his darkness. I'm assuming it's a "evil magic" thing, and not simply absence of light, but since my powers are "good magic" perhaps I should have given it a shot.

 

One thing the GM said (and I know he's always right, but...) is that the Darkness was not necessarily centered on the bad guy. This was in response to my "can't I just shoot at the exact center of the darkness sphere, targeting that hex for a DCV of 3?" Granted, I can't see it. But it would have been a lot easier to hit a 3 DCV at 1/2 OCV than to hit the villian's 7 DCV or so.

 

Heh, I feel guilty for even asking, because the GM's always right. But how would you have ruled in this case?

[Lord Liaden]

Just checked the FAQ, and it's clear that Dispel would have to be centered on the target if the target is generating the Darkness. Giving it Area of Effect probably would not have left enough Base Points to have brought the Darkness down, but if this villain is vulnerable to light-based attacks (it sounds like this was Dark Seraph), it might still have worked.

 

Say, any reason why you couldn't have given your EB the Explosion Advantage and just targetted the center of the Darkness field? If the villain is already hurting those 6D6 shots might just have been enough to bring him down.

 

Your suggestion for an AoE wind-based Entangle sounds good if the character's Flight is based on Restrainable wings. For that matter, a wind-based Dispel or Suppress vs. Flight (gust of wind or contrary breeze) might have temporarily stopped him, or at least slowed him down.

 

If the user of a Darkness centers that Power on himself so that it moves with him (and it would need UOO as an Attack to enable him to do that), the user should be at the center of the effect; if that were the case and I were GM I would allow you to target the center of the effect if you were using an AoE Power, but with penalties to OCV because of the Darkness. But I won't second-guess your GM since I don't know the particulars of how he set this up.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Gary

Possibly a 12-14 PD 0 ED forcewall with enough area to englobe the villain. If the villain doesn't have an energy attack, he'll be stopped cold. If he has an energy attack, he has to keep knocking down the wall each phase, using his attack action, buying time for the rest of the team to stop him.

Hmm, at such a low level, I'd let someone pop a FW with a casual energy attack with minimal slowdown.

However, if the FW was transparent to energy, that could cause some problems.

Depending on the strength of the villian, an area effect or explosion entangle might work well.

[McCoy]

Think the explosive EB was probably the way to go, but definitely Area Effect would have been your friend in this case. Dispell, EB, or entangle could all have been useful. The force globe is something I would not have thought of, but sounds good.

 

Could you have used part of your pool for an enhanced sense? Or area effect enhanced sense for your team?

[BenKimball]

Originally posted by McCoy

Could you have used part of your pool for an enhanced sense? Or area effect enhanced sense for your team?

 

Good idea. Might have been a hard sell to the GM, though. "A hovering, light-focusing lens made of ice?" "Creating periodic air compressions to fashion a sonar sense?" Maybe Nirvana (the fifth element in our game, meaning nothingness/void) would have been the way to go... "Koan quickly enters a trance, and opens his eyes to Nirvana, where everything is one, and sees Dark Seraph's life force floating in the void?"

 

Now I'm thinking, what if I had just summoned a few tons of water to a spot a few inches above the sphere of darkness and let gravity take its course?

 

Great ideas guys, I'm coming up with all kinds of new spells.

 

Cheers!

Ben

[Talon]

In roughly increasing order of abusiveness:

 

AOE; Entangle (ice-based) enough to slow him down hopefully.

 

Summon Air Sprite (with invisibility and Flight) -- follow them, notify PC of location so party can attack later.

 

AOE Continuous Drain Flight (ice accumulates, slows him down).

[Killer Shrike]

When you say elemental, I assume you mean AIR, EARTH, FIRE, and WATER; it sounds like you've added SPIRIT as an "element" as well.

 

 

If the target was flying, you should be able to justify quite a bit from your AIR SFX, targeting his mobility.

 

A change Environment subtracting inches of flight (WIND WALL) might have done the trick and AoE is built into it, or at least slowed him down long enough to come up with something else.

 

Stretching does not cross intervening space combined with AoE Radius on Strength (Fist of the Clouds; SFX: Cloud vapor forms in the shape of your fist and mimics your hands movement) might have done the trick too if you are strong enough to hold him.

 

A simple Suppress vs Flight AoE: Cone (Thick Air) might have done the trick too.

 

 

Earth is a harder spin, but an Indirect (ground up), Explosive, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Penetrating EB (Gout of Earthy Doom; SFX, a blast of superheated magma bursts from the ground straight up, splashing upon impact) might have made him a little unhappy if he were already messed up and make him stop a phase to extinguish the burning hot magma.

 

Similarly a Cave of Penitent Solitude spell (Indirect AoE: Rad Entangle, ground up; SFX a column of rock shoots up, encapsulating the target) might have grounded the target if his flight were restrainable.

 

 

Fire could always just do AoE damage of course, but a Dispel vs Darkness SFX: Illuminating Flame would also be a good option. Sounds like the GM nixed that (although, if his logic was "its mystical darkness" then he couldnt really argue with the rejoinder "well then its a good thing Im using mystical flame to counter it!").

 

 

Water is pretty tenuous in this circumstance, but you could make a Hail of Icy Pain spell, an Indirect Explosion (Altered Shape: Cone) Double Knockback EB might have inconvenienced the target, if it did enough downward KB to ground the target (granted, you wouldnt have very many dice, but you roll 1 less die vs aerial targets, so 3.5d6 EB might generate 4 Body on decent roll, which would double to 8 - 1d6)

 

Simlarly, a Torrent of Sudden Rain, Indirect AoE: Cone Flash vs Sight might blind the target, put them at a disadvantage.

 

You could also do Rain of Slippery Slidings as a Change Environment, imposing DEX penalties in an attempt to make the target drop his buddy as he became too slippery to hold on to.

 

 

SPIRIT sounds promising, depending on how it has been defined, but unfortunately 45 AP is very limiting

 

A spell of Locating the Minds True Form spell could allow you to Lock On to the target via Mind Scan, and then EGO Attack or MIND CONTROL him or similar with a secondary spell. However, with such a small VPP, you would have a hard time pulling that off.

 

 

All that aside however, it sounds like they were supposed to get away to further the GMs plotline. There is no power in the book combinable with any SFX to make capturing them conducive in the bigger picture. Its difficult to have reoccuring villains if the PCs never allow them to get away.

[McCoy]

Originally posted by BenKimball

Good idea. Might have been a hard sell to the GM, though. "A hovering, light-focusing lens made of ice?" "Creating periodic air compressions to fashion a sonar sense?" Maybe Nirvana (the fifth element in our game, meaning nothingness/void) would have been the way to go... "Koan quickly enters a trance, and opens his eyes to Nirvana, where everything is one, and sees Dark Seraph's life force floating in the void?"

 

Mis-interpeted the "elemental" in the original post, BUT, as a GM I would allow active sonar as an "air" power.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

 

If the user of a Darkness centers that Power on himself so that it moves with him (and it would need UOO as an Attack to enable him to do that), the user should be at the center of the effect; if that were the case and I were GM I would allow you to target the center of the effect if you were using an AoE Power, but with penalties to OCV because of the Darkness. But I won't second-guess your GM since I don't know the particulars of how he set this up. [/b]

 

Darkness you can center on yourself without UOO - after all, you're _not_ using it on others - you're not even picking on a particular hex. It's in the power description.

 

Just piping in, it's been said already - I'd've plunked down for an explosive EB off the top of my head. If you had buddies around who could help if not for the Darkness, a light-based Dispel on it may have been an idea, but I don't think you'd have quite the points to make it workable. Maybe a cumulative Dispel if you had enough time.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Jeff

Darkness you can center on yourself without UOO - after all, you're _not_ using it on others - you're not even picking on a particular hex. It's in the power description.

 

Thank you - I stand corrected.

[Old Man]

You could also counter poison with poison.

 

Storm Cloud - Darkness vs sight and sense of direction, usable as an attack. Villain can't see and has no idea where he is going. Then you throw a force wall in front of him.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Shadowpup

You could also counter poison with poison.

 

Storm Cloud - Darkness vs sight and sense of direction, usable as an attack. Villain can't see and has no idea where he is going. Then you throw a force wall in front of him.

 

Usable as an attack probably isn't helpful here either - you can't see the target to target him effectively - that's the problem. But it's naturally an AE attack, so it might be one of the better ways to catch the villain.

 

An explosive Flash (lightning strike) might be another way to a similar effect. It's not a tactical point at all, but it seems more fitting somehow to me - countering the evil darkness with something bright.

[Old Man]

Well according to FREd, you cannot affect targets with a sight based Flash if they are in a sight based Darkness.

 

That's why I proposed hitting the villain with another Darkness. I'm fairly certain that if you target the villain's Darkness blob, and you hit it, then everything in your AE is also hit. That means that the villain should be affected by the new Darkness. Useable as an Attack is needed if you want the Darkness field to move with the target.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Shadowpup

Well according to FREd, you cannot affect targets with a sight based Flash if they are in a sight based Darkness.

 

That's why I proposed hitting the villain with another Darkness. I'm fairly certain that if you target the villain's Darkness blob, and you hit it, then everything in your AE is also hit. That means that the villain should be affected by the new Darkness. Useable as an Attack is needed if you want the Darkness field to move with the target.

 

Hmmm. Would that mean that, if there are four different targets in there, they're all going to be the center of their own Darkness field thereafter? It seems an odd result, but I guess that's something you risk with Usable as Attack powers.

 

Also, this guy is either personally immune to his own Darkness, or he's not dependent on sight to navigate. If he is personally immune, I'd have to think as a matter of common sense he's still going to be vulnerable to Sight Flashes despite the Darkness - after all, it can't defend him on account of making the burst of light invisible. If he _is_ defended that way, personally immune Darkness just became perfect Flash Defense. If he's not dependent on the Sight Group to navigate, then your own Sight Group Darkness will be ineffective.

[Killer Shrike]

If the target has PI on his Darkness, it shouldnt protect him from Sight flashes. Gotta take the bad with the good.

[coach]

Why not just "Flight" and chase the bugger down?

 

I like the Force Wall the best, actually. Just put it in front of him and let him take damage from hitting it.

[BenKimball]

Originally posted by coach

Why not just "Flight" and chase the bugger down?

 

I like the Force Wall the best, actually. Just put it in front of him and let him take damage from hitting it.

 

I've since learned more about our foe (we've had another session and fought him again). It was Eclipse, of the Crowns of Krim. I think (I don't own CKC) that he has targeting senses other than sight. He can also desolidify, which is how he ultimately got away. (We flyers gave chase, but then he flew into the ground. Not wanting to dive into the earth alone, I broke off pursuit.)

 

Thanks for all the suggestions; I've got lots of groovy new spells in my grimoire now! I wish I'd thought of the Force Wall, or the Suppress Flight, or even the EB Explosion. Live and learn.

 

Cheers!

Ben