Teleport with trigger question.

[CBikle]

A player in our Champs game had this idea for a power and we've been discussing its viability/legality. just curious about others thoughts on the power.

 

Hey guys, what do you think of this.

 

I was thinking of a teleporting character who has a reflexive teleport that would automatically move him when in danger of being struck in melee. It would be something like a 5" teleport with the trigger advantage, when threatened with a melee attack. The character would have to be aware of the attack for it to work. Do you guys think this is balanced/fair?

[David Johnston]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

As long as you are aware that it takes another action to set up another trigger. Basically it would just mean the first attack always misses (and since it triggers any time the character thinks he might be hit, a savvy opponent doesn't need to spend any endurance on that first attack). After that he fights normally.

 

Thinking about it, an opponent who had seen this trick before could probably anticipate the teleport and Sweep to attack both where Mr Annoying Bug is and will be.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

A player in our Champs game had this idea for a power and we've been discussing its viability/legality. just curious about others thoughts on the power.

 

I wouldn't use teleport to model this power. I would use a +DCV perhaps with an activation roll. The SFX is that he teleports 'just out of the way' - but this allows for the opponent to 'hit him before he moves' or 'wait until after he moves' kind of SFX. This way he doesn't have to 'abort to' a defensive power.

 

I mean really, all he wants to do is 'get out of the way of an attack' and that's what DCV does.

 

Attempt to simplify when possible I say.

[CBikle]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I wouldn't use teleport to model this power. I would use a +DCV perhaps with an activation roll. The SFX is that he teleports 'just out of the way' - but this allows for the opponent to 'hit him before he moves' or 'wait until after he moves' kind of SFX. This way he doesn't have to 'abort to' a defensive power.

 

I mean really, all he wants to do is 'get out of the way of an attack' and that's what DCV does.

 

Attempt to simplify when possible I say.

 

You're suggestion was one we were talking about (as well as the Flying Dodge martial arts maneuver).

 

I think the player might've been interested in the movement aspect(s) to the power, but had some concerns over game-balance.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

As long as you are aware that it takes another action to set up another trigger. Basically it would just mean the first attack always misses (and since it triggers any time the character thinks he might be hit, a savvy opponent doesn't need to spend any endurance on that first attack). After that he fights normally.

 

Thinking about it, an opponent who had seen this trick before could probably anticipate the teleport and Sweep to attack both where Mr Annoying Bug is and will be.

 

You could use some of the automatic reset abilities in the 5ER Trigger, although this would make it more expensive. As to how fair it is, I'd want to look at the cost of the ability and compare it to some other uses for the points such as:

 

- extra levels in Block (which would also prevent that HTH attack)

 

- Desolid, only to protect against HTH attacks (again, making him invulnerable to HTH attacks)

 

- extra resistant PD, again providing resistance to HTH attacks and other attacks

 

It doesn't protect him from ranged attacks, nor from attacks from those he does not perceive, so I don't think it's hugely overpowered. A version without a self-resetting trigger would be a pretty cool Fantasy Hero spell.

 

A Blink teleport (extra DCV, costs END) is also an option. That would also apply to ranged attacks. You could add "must be aware of attacks" as well. That's a good cost to compare, if you also limit it to HTH only.

[Talon]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

Extra DCV doesn't help against AOE attacks.

 

I had a character once who used a similar construct -- multiple floating locations combined with levels in Dive For Cover, so he could easily Abort to a Teleport to a safe location. The character was balanced, since each time he did this meant a lost Phase. I could see an auto-resetting Trigger version being a bit over the top (depending on the specifics).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

This idea can be build legally, but to use the Trigger option, you'd have to set a direction as well. Could suck if you were attacked facing the wrong direction near a cliff.

 

One option is to buy a dedicated Teleport Power that is only usuable with Diving for Cover, and buy a Computer that uses your character's senses and this Power to force you to Dive for Cover when you are attacked. The upside is that you are guarenteed never to use an action, so you don't need one and it can even be performed in a Segment you've already acted in. It will also never Teleport you someplace you don't want to go. The down side is that whenever it does activate, you end up "prone" in the target hex. You could buy the dedicated Teleport with Possition Shift so you never have to use a half phase to become "unprone", but you'd still be at 1/2 DCV until the start of your next Phase. Ultimately, I think this is a fair balance and would likely allow it.

[Ndreare]

Re: Does anyone read these titles?

 

I would have him build it with DCV and say that TP is just the FX. However for this option I would have him pay at least a couple points for TP.

 

I see teleporting outof the way (although much cooler) no differnt than jumping or moving out of the way normaly. If a character has the power let him do it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I'd allow the Triggered Teleport, but just like a Delayed Phase used in response to another character's action there would be a Dex-vs.-Dex contest (the attacker could substitute a Fast Draw roll as usual, but the defender could not) to see whether the Trigger or the attack comes off first.

[JamesG]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

This idea can be build legally' date=' but to use the Trigger option, you'd have to set a direction as well. Could suck if you were attacked facing the wrong direction near a cliff.[/quote']

 

I do not think this is true. Revised page 271 allows the character to choose the target of a triggered attack power under certian circumstances. If a target can be picked at time of triggering for an attack power, I don't see why the direction/distance of a movement power can't be picked at time of triggering as well.

[JamesG]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I'd allow the Triggered Teleport' date=' but just like a Delayed Phase used in response to another character's action there would be a Dex-vs.-Dex contest (the attacker could substitute a Fast Draw roll as usual, but the defender could not) to see whether the Trigger or the attack comes off first.[/quote']

 

That's not how trigger works, AFAIK. If the triggering condition is met, the trigger goes off. No opposed Dex-vs.-Dex needed.

 

Of course you could require the character building the reflexive t'port to add a "Requires an opposed Dex Roll" limitation to the power if you felt it would be too abusive otherwise.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I do not think this is true. Revised page 271 allows the character to choose the target of a triggered attack power under certian circumstances. If a target can be picked at time of triggering for an attack power' date=' I don't see why the direction/distance of a movement power can't be picked at time of triggering as well.[/quote']

 

I suppose, but I would think the Teleport thing isn't one of those circumstances. For one, Teleport isn't so much targeted as it is used. It's a Movement Power with the target being "self".

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

That's not how trigger works, AFAIK. If the triggering condition is met, the trigger goes off. No opposed Dex-vs.-Dex needed.

 

Of course you could require the character building the reflexive t'port to add a "Requires an opposed Dex Roll" limitation to the power if you felt it would be too abusive otherwise.

Of course it goes off, but when?! Is there anything that says it happens fast enough to prevent the very action that triggered it?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I suppose' date=' but I would think the Teleport thing isn't one of those circumstances. For one, Teleport isn't so much targeted as it is used. It's a Movement Power with the target being "self".[/quote']

I think the bandolier grenades given as an example in the book are a good one. If it is an action of the character's that triggers the power, he can control the parameters of that power's use (or at least some of them, like the target in the grenade example). So if the version of Trigger is such that, "Activating the Trigger is an action that takes no time," then the character should be able to control it. If the version of Trigger is such that, "Character does not control activation of personal Trigger," then by default all of the conditions would have to be set up ahead of time.

 

So can the character choose whether or not to teleport when (s)he is attacked, or does it happen ("reflexively," or whatever) whether the character likes it or not?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I think the bandolier grenades given as an example in the book are a good one. If it is an action of the character's that triggers the power' date=' he can control the parameters of that power's use (or at least some of them, like the target in the grenade example). So if the version of [i']Trigger[/i] is such that, "Activating the Trigger is an action that takes no time," then the character should be able to control it. If the version of Trigger is such that, "Character does not control activation of personal Trigger," then by default all of the conditions would have to be set up ahead of time.

 

So can the character choose whether or not to teleport when (s)he is attacked, or does it happen ("reflexively," or whatever) whether the character likes it or not?

 

In other words, is the Trigger the incoming attack, or the character using a 0 Phase action? You get a different effect in each case. If the Trigger is the incoming attack (and the character's aware of it), the Teleport's direction and distance must be set when the Trigger is set, but it automatically happens before the attack and the attacker has just wasted his attack action. If the Trigger is a 0 Phase Action of the character's, then it might still automatically happen before the attack, but the attacker then hasn't yet made his attack and is free to do something else (like attack the character in the new location, assuming he's in range and LOS). The 0 Phase Action Trigger also gives the character the option of trying to beat the attack, causing him and the attack to DEX off to see what happens first, but in either case, the attacker attacks, using his action.

[Lucius]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

- Desolid, only to protect against HTH attacks (again, making him invulnerable to HTH attacks)

 

 

Uh oh - Hugh Neilson used the "I" word!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Always using the "P" word

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

In other words' date=' is the Trigger the incoming attack, or the character using a 0 Phase action? You get a different effect in each case. If the Trigger is the incoming attack (and the character's aware of it), the Teleport's direction and distance must be set when the Trigger is set, but it automatically happens before the attack and the attacker has just wasted his attack action. If the Trigger is a 0 Phase Action of the character's, then it might still automatically happen before the attack, but the attacker then hasn't yet made his attack and is free to do something else (like attack the character in the new location, assuming he's in range and LOS). The 0 Phase Action Trigger also gives the character the option of trying to beat the attack, causing him and the attack to DEX off to see what happens first, but in either case, the attacker attacks, using his action.[/quote']

I guess so. But just to be clear I wasn't talking about the Zero-Phase version. I was talking about the version that, "takes no time," which I think is the equivalent of a Free Action (like a Presence Attack). What I really meant is whether or not the character has to choose ahead of time the direction and distance of the Teleport.

 

And I think I'd require a Dex-off for any Trigger that tries to interfere with an action that causes it (either due to that action being the Trigger or the character setting off the Trigger in response to the action). Your solution of allowing the attacker to change actions could certainly work instead or in addition.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I guess so. But just to be clear I wasn't talking about the Zero-Phase version. I was talking about the version that' date=' "takes no time," which I think is the equivalent of a Free Action (like a Presence Attack).[/quote']

My bad. That's what I meant to be talking about. The no time thing. All these years and I still get 0 Phase and No Time confused.

 

And I think I'd require a Dex-off for any Trigger that tries to interfere with an action that causes it (either due to that action being the Trigger or the character setting off the Trigger in reaction to the action).

Agreed. What I was saying in the case of the no time version is that it does not interfere with the action that causes it. The action that causes it isn't the incoming attack, but the character's awareness that someone is attacking him (but hasn't actually committed to the attack yet). If the character wanted to wait until the attacker was committed to attacking, then definately, a DEX roll should be involved.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

My bad. That's what I meant to be talking about. The no time thing. All these years and I still get 0 Phase and No Time confused.

NP.

 

Agreed. What I was saying in the case of the no time version is that it does not interfere with the action that causes it. The action that causes it isn't the incoming attack, but the character's awareness that someone is attacking him (but hasn't actually committed to the attack yet). If the character wanted to wait until the attacker was committed to attacking, then definately, a DEX roll should be involved.

Ah. I see. So that nasty turn of the head with the fiendish red glint in the eyes? Sure the Trigger might always go off before the attack lands, but the, "attacker," might not even be really intending to attack (unless maybe the character has some Telepathy built in there too); they might be feinting. They might be Acting (with an intentional capital). And with that kind of Trigger I would DEFINITELY let the attacker change their action if they were going to attack.

 

Seems balanced (and to make sense of the common variety) either way.

[JamesG]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I stand corrected on the timing:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1065500#post1065500

 

I still think the character can choose distance/direction when the trigger goes off, but I doubt the player will want the power anymore given Steve's ruling.

[Silbeg]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I stand corrected on the timing:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1065500#post1065500

 

I have to say that I would agree with Steve's ruling, there. The whole thing kind of struck me as wrong, but I was keeping my mouth shut, so to speak.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I agree with Steve as well. Reiforces my thought that if the Teleport is Triggered by the attack and goes off before the attack is resolved, the attacker hasn't yet attacked, nor was committed to the attack and can just choose to attack the character in his new location instead. This could get infinately problematic if the trigger automatically resets, though any sane GM would limit the use of it to a maximum of the Teleport's total combat movement per Phase, regardless of however many times it's triggered.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

I agree with Steve as well. Reiforces my thought that if the Teleport is Triggered by the attack and goes off before the attack is resolved' date=' the attacker hasn't yet attacked, nor was committed to the attack and can just choose to attack the character in his new location instead. This could get infinately problematic if the trigger automatically resets, though any sane GM would limit the use of it to a maximum of the Teleport's total combat movement per Phase, regardless of however many times it's triggered.[/quote']

Right. Which could still make it a useful power as it might be able to get the defender to a point where the attacker can't still get to him and attack.

[CBikle]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

Although not book legal, the defensive teleport with auto-reset trigger would have been interesting to see in play.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleport with trigger question.

 

Right. Which could still make it a useful power as it might be able to get the defender to a point where the attacker can't still get to him and attack.

 

To due so sould be expensive though, so it might actually balance out. It would definately be more useful in some enviornments though, such as inside a building (assuming it also has Safe Blind Teleport). And the teleporter could also teleport behind the attack assuming he's in range of the Teleport. It might make an interesting defensive power for a unique villain actually, so I might end up using it. On a player character (well, any character, but NPCs aren't as rigidly balanced) it could cause problems in the long run. It's tricky to work out exactly how it works though, and that's what really makes it a questional build; it causes a lot of questions about how it works and what it does.