Size template question

[garou]

OKay, my campaign has a character who is, under normal circumstances, small, like 1" (2.54 cm) high. He has growth that will bring him back to normal size - originally, I had built this as Shrinking (with various bells and whistles), even though the normal method is to use the size templates. This build led to some oddities (to say the least), so I am rebuilding the character via the size template.

 

This created another issue. Let's take two characters, A and B. A has Shrinking, Always On, etc; while B has Insectile size template. Ignoring for a second that character A, with Shrinking still has 6" of running (vs. 1" for Character , or that Character A has a higher strength when shrunk, there is another oddity.

 

Characters A and B get hit by an attack, and they take equal damage. Character A takes an extra 18" of knockback due to shrinking, whereas B takes no extra knockback, despite being the same size and weight.

 

I like the character concept, but the build for this PC is becomming a real pain.

[schir1964]

Re: Size template question

 

...I like the character concept' date=' but the build for this PC is becomming a real pain.[/quote']

All I can offer is a possible alternative. But it may not solve your problems either.

 

[thread=54747]Size Stat[/thread]

 

- Christopher Mulins

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Size template question

 

First off, let me display my thundering ignorance. Size template? Where would I find that?

 

I think what you need to do, whether you use Shrinking or the size template, is figure out what effects are reasonable for your character, and then add powers or disads to reflect that. For instance, if Character A with Shrinking has 6" of Running but reasonably would only have 1", then sell back 5" of Running. If Character B should be taking lots of Knockback due to small size, give him a Physcial Limitation: Takes +x" of Knockback (or maybe Vuln x3 Effect from Knockback or something).

 

________________________________________________________

"Why follow me to higher ground, lost as you swear I am?" - Ed Roland

[garou]

Re: Size template question

 

The Size templates are in the back of FrED. I could go through, take all the advantages of the template, slap on a "Only when shrunk" limitation, then figure out some way of reducing the disadvantages (again, because they only apply when shrunk). It's clumsy, at best, and prone to all sorts of potential error.

 

I'm wondering if I might not just do a Multiform for this. It's a bad way of doing it, however - there needs to be a better way, but, as far as I know, I'm stuck with either the clumsy (yet correct) use of the size template, or the much more elegant use of Shrinking, with various bells and whistles to make it work properly.

[Lucius]

Re: Size template question

 

The Size templates are in the back of FrED .

 

What page? I have FRED and I can't find any "size templates."

 

What "oddities" did using Shrinking lead to?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Using Growth and Shrinking on a palindromedary simultaneously

[ghost-angel]

Re: Size template question

 

Page references:

 

Size Templates-

5ER p574-576

Bestiary p26-27

 

Size of Target (Combat Modifier)

5ER p382

Bestiary p31

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Size template question

 

Characters A and B get hit by an attack, and they take equal damage. Character A takes an extra 18" of knockback due to shrinking, whereas B takes no extra knockback, despite being the same size and weight.

 

Included in the Size package deal is the Physical Limitation: (Size Descriptor), the effects of which would include the additional knockback for being so small.

[garou]

Re: Size template question

 

Included in the Size package deal is the Physical Limitation: (Size Descriptor)' date=' the effects of which would include the additional knockback for being so small.[/quote']

Yes, I saw that (after I made the post). But, it means that, among other things, while Knockback resistance is 2 pts/1" of resistence, Extra Knockback is (apparently) worth only -1/1", and everything else that goes with being 1/12" high is worth a whopping 2 pts (since Insectile a Greatly Impairing, All the Time, for -20 pts).

 

There still is no good way to build a tiny character who can grow to human size. While Hero generally has elegant solutions to most problems, Shrinking and Growth are clunky.

 

Here's another consideration: Character has 10 Body. Insectile size doens't modify this (no problem). Character uses Growth to achieve human size (which, at 15 pts/doubling of size, requires 90 pts). . . and now has 28 Body. And, Strength goes from -20 (assuming base 10, with -30 applied for insectile) to 70. Knockback now balances out (+18 from Insectile, -18 due to growth), as does the Per rolls and the DCV modifiers.

 

Maybe I'm missing something major here, but it looks like what should be a simple idea is, sadly, far more complex than it needs to be. I know that it is almost heresy to suggest simply going the Shrinking route, but it seems much, much, much simpler than applying the Insectile template and having to modify everything piecemeal in order to account for all the changes which arise from returning to human size.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Size template question

 

Since the character is actively changing sizes, I would suggest you actually want the Shrinking Route and not applying the Template.

 

Just delcare the the Shrunken States is the Base State of the character.

[Lucius]

Re: Size template question

 

Page references:

 

Size Templates-

5ER p574-576

Bestiary p26-27

 

Size of Target (Combat Modifier)

5ER p382

Bestiary p31

 

Ah. When he said “FRED†I assumed he meant the same book I have, not FREDerick II, the revised 5th edition.

 

I know that it is almost heresy to suggest simply going the Shrinking route' date=' but it seems much, much, much simpler than applying the Insectile template and having to modify everything piecemeal in order to account for all the changes which arise from returning to human size.[/quote']

 

The rule against using Growth or Shrinking Always On was a Bad Idea. Bad Ideas, even coming from Good People, should be ignored. Hopefully this will be corrected in the 6th Edition, sometime in my lifetime. Meanwhile, we can happily ignore it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Did the palindromedary eat my copy of the Bestiary already?!?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Size template question

 

Note Quite Always On (note the emphasis on the Physical Limitation):

Shrinking: x1/128 size (1 inch), x1/2,000,000 mass, +14 DCV, -14 to Perceive, +21 KB;

[70 Base]

Reduced End Cost: 0 End (+1/2);

Persistent (+1/2);

[140 Active]

Always On (-1/2);

[93 Real]

 

+ Buyoff: Always On

[47 Active]

Costs End (-1/2);

[32 Real]

 

[135 Total]

 

Physical Limitation: Eibitsy (

Frequently

, Greatly Impairing)

[15 Points]

[garou]

Re: Size template question

 

Note Quite Always On (note the emphasis on the Physical Limitation):

Shrinking: x1/128 size (1 inch), x1/2,000,000 mass, +14 DCV, -14 to Perceive, +21 KB;

[70 Base]

Reduced End Cost: 0 End (+1/2);

Persistent (+1/2);

[140 Active]

Always On (-1/2);

[93 Real]

 

+ Buyoff: Always On

[47 Active]

Costs End (-1/2);

[32 Real]

 

[135 Total]

 

Physical Limitation: Eibitsy (

Frequently

, Greatly Impairing)

[15 Points]

 

That's actually pretty close to what I had. It's a Teen campaign, so the Buyoff also has an activation roll, and some other limitation (can't recall which, and don't have designer open right now). Thanks for the Phys Lim though - hadn't thought about that.

[Silbeg]

Re: Size template question

 

Note Quite Always On (note the emphasis on the Physical Limitation):

Shrinking: x1/128 size (1 inch), x1/2,000,000 mass, +14 DCV, -14 to Perceive, +21 KB;

[70 Base]

Reduced End Cost: 0 End (+1/2);

Persistent (+1/2);

[140 Active]

Always On (-1/2);

[93 Real]

 

+ Buyoff: Always On

[47 Active]

Costs End (-1/2);

[32 Real]

 

[135 Total]

 

Physical Limitation: Eibitsy (

Frequently

, Greatly Impairing)

[15 Points]

 

Based on the nature of the character, I would also buy Inherent on the Shrinking. If the character is 1" tall in her base state, the Shrinking should not be drainable/dispellable/suppressable. On the other hand, the "Growth" to the "normal size" (buying off the always on) should be able to be suppressed, et al.

 

I agree that the size templates would have some issue if you went the other way (bought the character with the template, and then Growth to get to normal size).

 

The size powers (including DI) have always been among the wonkiest in the HERO system. My take is that the size powers should just change your size (or mass), and have nothing to do with bonuses to STR, etc. It is this coupling that has made DI & Growth among the most bah-roken of the powers...

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Size template question

 

Page references:

 

Size Templates-

5ER p574-576

Bestiary p26-27

 

Size of Target (Combat Modifier)

5ER p382

Bestiary p31

 

Ah, since I have only the 5th Ed and not the revised I missed this. But I notice now that my 5th Ed has only 370 some pages, meaning the revised edition is AT LEAST 200 PAGES LONGER! Wow, I had no idea I was missing so much. Size templates are just the tip of the iceberg apparently.