What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

[Frenchman]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Hmmm... RKane, I think you're confusing the name of the block maneuver with its sFX. Just as an energy blast doesn't need to be energy and Force Field doesn't need to have anything to do with a field, a character doesn't have to 'interpose an object' in order to use the block maneuver. Also, a character doesn't need to move to dodge - mechanics and special effects are separate.

I really like to have my characters 'block' punches with their chin and 'dodge' by standing still and having the enemy miss anyways (remember Braveheart and the Rock-Throwing bit?)

[Frenchman]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Damn you, Nexus, Damn you!

I really should refresh my browser before I reply.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I think your getting the name mixed up with the special effect. A Block can be anything' date=' A Dodge can be anything. You'd don't have to physically impose anything at all. If that were the case. Blocks would automatically set off Damage Sheilds (particularly Offensive ones), there would have to rules for taking damage if you block something innately damaging (like blocking a weapon when you have none), thus my suggestion for possibly changing the name to something like Active Defense, or consider it that. Read the descriotion for Block (not being snarky) it does not say you must physically place something in the way of the attack, that is just one possible sfx. A block is not nesscarily a parry. It does say explicitly that the GM is well within their rights to impose a penalty or even disallow a Block against attacks as they see fit, depending on sfx, dramatic sense and game balance. [/quote']

 

I would support a name change but also the fact that a Block costs so little for what it does and the common man can buy something that applies to Hulk like Strength. The special effect is king in HERO, though. You are right in that. I like the name Active Defense.

 

You can't really argue realism. If you're going to screw the guy with Block for "realism" you'd also have to put in rules like Bricks have to buy some degree of TK and Lmiited Flight to keep from sinking into the ground and hold the objects they pick up something really heavy.

 

Or when in those realistic games, apply more levels of realism that make things like sinking into the ground when picking up something heavy or not being able to pick up something large and unbalanced when those "reality levels" are turned up. I think its the genre the GM is trying to represent and the "reality" they are trying to represent. That is why I think the Block variant should be for more realistic campaigns. For four color, the "Block" here will do.

 

Let me put my thinking cap on and I will come up with something to post. You guys can give it a run for its money and see if it stands up to test.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

But thats my point' date=' the Block is an imposition of an object to counter the force of an attack OR the application of a force to either directly counter or redirect the force of an attack...It isn't a Super-dodge. Its the application of a force against a force or the redirection of a force using a force. It's not a Dodge though it is treated as such by many. The Speedster already HAS a valid defense he can use.....a GREAT valid defense that is logical as is the logical one Shang-Chi would likely use and even Spiderman or any other more agile opponent who sees a huge green leviathan coming his way with a big green fist.....they Dodge.[/quote']

 

You are restricting Block to a single SFX. As others have pointed out, this is not consistent with Hero's rules of variable SFX. A haymaker is a specific type of punch, but the Haymaker maneuver can apply to fire bolts, ego blasts or kicks. We just need an easy name to hang on each maneuver.

 

Agile opponents can Dodge. or they could use Block as a super-dodge. There are also published examples of "(Martial) Block" as a "Just stand there and take it on the chin". SFX trump nomenclature in the Hero system.

 

I agree. I would have issues as a GM approving any application of a Block Maneuver to a a repulsor ray blast. But if we are talking about Missile Deflection' date=' then that is a different animal. Lets stick to Block. If the character came to me with Missile Deflection as a power and claimed he had a stick that could deflect a repulsor ray blast, I would, as a GM have issues with this special effect. I would like to see some limitations on the power that would logically dictate why this was possible. As a Gm, If I didn't "Buy it" then the character can't buy it. Its the way I've always run my game with special effects. If I don't "buy it" then YOU don't buy it.[/quote']

 

At its core, Missile deflection is no more than Block applicable to ranged attacks. It does not require a focus, and gets a limitation if it does, so your Billy Club example is skewed. In fact, 1e Champions required Missile Deflection have a focus, and 2e eliminated that requirement.

 

As to the need for the GM to "buy into" my character's abilities, I wonder how many of us would alllow a "Spider Sense" and/or a mechanical focus for webs for an otherwise naturally SpiderPoweredGuy, if Stan Lee hadn't added those in first.

 

But realistic...

 

I find it difficult to apply standards of realism to a man casting bursts of fire from his bare hands. If we wish to apply the standards of "realism", most Marvel Supers' origins should have resulted in a quick death, a lingering death or a lengthy recovery period, not superpowers. Applying realism to one facet of an unrealistic genre is, well, unrealistic.

 

Actually, after a little research, I was wrong in saying the shield is an Adamantium/Vibranium mix. It is a Vibranium/Steel mixture (Thanks, Wikipedia!) but it also is indestructible and absorbs energy.

 

Back in the day, there was a Fantastic Four comic where Gladiator was attacking New York and the FF. Reed got a bright idea after a theory about how Gladiator's power worked and convinced Cap to stand there and TAKE blow after blow disquised by a hologram of Reed Richards. There was a comment then about how Cap's shield absorbed energy which was why Cap could stand up to Gladiator's blows (Gladiator is the quivalent of Superman in the Marvel Universe). It was explained then that the Vibranium/Steel mix allowed this.

 

The shield is indestructible. I don't buy the energy absorption. Why, then, would Cap's "classic" shield not allow the same "strap it to his feet and jump out of the plane" stunt which his all-vibranium shield DID allow for? Does Gladiator not hit as hard as "terminal velocity"? Assuming he does not, is the difference such that the spread alone would kill Cap? In the issue you describe, Cap was affected by an image inducer, so the shield could not be seen. It's not a big stretch to suggest Cap angled the shield to avoid the worst of the blow. Gladiator was pretty much enraged at the time, so all he knows is he keeps hitting the target, who has no visible defenses of note, and the blows keep deflecting off.

 

In a lot the write-ups of Cap' date=' the shield has been built with KB resistance on top of the PD and ED to make it so as well.[/quote']

 

So? A Hero write up is hardly definitive to the Marvel characters. Neither is Wikipedia or, as has been shown numerous times, the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. This approach uses the shield as a passive defense. A bunch of Block/Missile deflect levels would allow him to avooid the attacks, and thus take no knockback anyway. Most scenes where Cap blocks a huge attack (a Hulk punch; a huge EB) show him as focused on use of the shield, IOW using an action. Block requires an action. PD, ED and knockback resistance do not.

 

BTW, you'll allow for a metal which absorbs impact, but not a super-dodge built as Block? Can that metal protect Cap from electricity, or must it be conductive?

 

In my defense' date=' the vibranium/adamantium mistake was because of an error in the "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe " entry for cap and many writers used it as source material propogating the error....but I digress.[/quote']

 

IIRC, there was a link drawn between Cap's shield and adamantium. The original serendipity that created the shield was the impetus for adamantium research, I think, but there's at least difference between the two metals. I think they're more similar than different, however.

 

Or the writer just wanting to make it seem that Cap is tough to withstand all that. I hate how powers change from issue to issue or title to title because of the writers. *sigh*

 

Which writer is correct? I don't like that Avengers portrayal, but it's no less consistent with the previously established character than the FF portrayal of a shield that absorbs, rather than deflects, heavy impact. Avengers Annual #2 (where Cap must angle his shield just so to deflect Thor's hammer) was consistent with the established use of Cap's sheild many years before FF #250.

 

True that' date=' but then they should just call it "Super-Dodge" if thats what it is. I suppose it is semantics with HERO but I tend to call a "Spade", a "Spade". They should either make a mechanic that more realistically offers the realistic implications of a Block, or call it something else like "super-dodge"[/quote']

 

It is called a superdodge:

 

"Super Dodge" Martial Block OCV +2 DCV +2 Block and +6 OCV levels with Block.

 

Do you also prohibit an Energy Blast applying against physical defense based on the nomenclature? Powers, skills, maneuvers, etc. are just building blocks. They have names because we need shortcuts to writing them down, but their names are not definitive of their effects, much less their special effects.

 

Quite simply...a normal human should not be able to buy a maneuver that can block the hurricane force of the Hulk's punch. As the system stands now' date=' he can. I think it should be changed if for no other reason than that....but there are more reason. You are, in a way, proving my point. Because the change to Block does bring up so many ramifications, it *IS* a fundamental change. I think to block super-powered punches and the like should require the expenditure of more points and something distinctly....well...."super".[/quote']

 

The fundamental which your arguments argue should be changed is that the name of the ability is divorced from its SFX. I remain in favour of that fundamental - Hero got it right. To change that means greatly restricting SFX of various abilities, and vastly reducing the flexibility of the Hero system.

 

And I don't see many normal humans blocking the Hulk's punch, even if they are trained martial artists with Martial Block. A normal human OCV's not high enough to pull that off with any consistency. In any case, it doesn't bother me if there are some disconnects when 350 (at least) point characters are pitted against "normal humans", or even Skilled Normals. I'm unlikely to play out a combat between the Hulk and Rick Jones. Rick either gets away by the skin of his teeth, gets hospitalized or gets killed, depending on the needs of the story.

 

Neither am I likely to set a creature such as the Hulk on "normal human" player characters, unless they have some equalizing measure (at which point they are likely no longer "normal humans").

[Shiva13]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

True.

 

However, it is because without said savings, certain purchases would be vastly _over_ costed.

 

It's not a limitation on the power. If it was, it would be, well, a Limitation, not a power framework.

 

Multipowers do have an inherent limitation in them. And that is that the entire pool of the Multipower can only be in use in a very limited way at once. And with Ultra slots, those powers must be counted at their full value when used. And not divided, like standard multipower slots can be. It is a performance limitation on all powers in that framework.

 

But still, that performance limitation is one that is, by and large, barely felt in the coarse of actual play. And that's the problem. A limitation barely felt, by the strict definition of the design ethics behind the Hero System itself, should not grant such a huge amount of savings. That makes the Multipower broken when compared to those design ethics.

 

I do believe Multipowers can be fixed. But it will take what people consider a radical move. And that would be to include rules as a companion to it as to what limitations or advantages can be applied to the whole multipower and what can be applied to the slots. With the slots given heavy preference in the rulebook for advantages and limitations being applied to them at all. This will limit the point pyramid that currectly afflicts the Multipower.

 

The point pryamid effect is this: Advantages and limitations can be applied to two different levels of the multipower. The main pool and the single slots. But all of the slots automatically get a discount for being either a multi slot or an ultra. So that is three levels of discounts in the Multipower that can and does feed into each other. And in many ways, they can and do stack. Giving even more of a discount across the board. It's a design flaw. A very bad one. One that also exists in the EC. But the magnitude of the impact it has in the EC is far lesser.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

no, Multipowers are limited in how they are used, they do not have a Limitation.

 

note the capital "L" in Limitation - which is a game mechanic term used to signify that a Power is being used in some way that is less useful than the Normal version.

 

Just because something is limited in how it can be used - can't use Energy Blast to grab someone, is it still Limited, or just limited in use? - does not mean it has inherent Limitations.

[Lucius]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Maybe not fundamental, but one thing that should change:

 

A version of linked such that two powers may only be used together.

 

Right now, you can "link" one power so that it can only be used if another power is used. But the other power may be used freely, without the linked power.

 

As I understand it, there is NO way right now to build a set of powers such that two or more powers may ONLY be used if all are used at once.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes dryly that this is far from fundamental.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Maybe not fundamental, but one thing that should change:

 

A version of linked such that two powers may only be used together.

 

Right now, you can "link" one power so that it can only be used if another power is used. But the other power may be used freely, without the linked power.

 

As I understand it, there is NO way right now to build a set of powers such that two or more powers may ONLY be used if all are used at once.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes dryly that this is far from fundamental.

 

I believe you can take Linked on each power, such that they become all or nothing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Multipowers do have an inherent limitation in them. And that is that the entire pool of the Multipower can only be in use in a very limited way at once. And with Ultra slots, those powers must be counted at their full value when used. And not divided, like standard multipower slots can be. It is a performance limitation on all powers in that framework.

 

But still, that performance limitation is one that is, by and large, barely felt in the coarse of actual play. And that's the problem. A limitation barely felt, by the strict definition of the design ethics behind the Hero System itself, should not grant such a huge amount of savings. That makes the Multipower broken when compared to those design ethics.

 

I do believe Multipowers can be fixed. But it will take what people consider a radical move. And that would be to include rules as a companion to it as to what limitations or advantages can be applied to the whole multipower and what can be applied to the slots. With the slots given heavy preference in the rulebook for advantages and limitations being applied to them at all. This will limit the point pyramid that currectly afflicts the Multipower.

 

The point pryamid effect is this: Advantages and limitations can be applied to two different levels of the multipower. The main pool and the single slots. But all of the slots automatically get a discount for being either a multi slot or an ultra. So that is three levels of discounts in the Multipower that can and does feed into each other. And in many ways, they can and do stack. Giving even more of a discount across the board. It's a design flaw. A very bad one. One that also exists in the EC. But the magnitude of the impact it has in the EC is far lesser.

 

see this post:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=890486&postcount=41

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

You are restricting Block to a single SFX. As others have pointed out, this is not consistent with Hero's rules of variable SFX. A haymaker is a specific type of punch, but the Haymaker maneuver can apply to fire bolts, ego blasts or kicks. We just need an easy name to hang on each maneuver.

 

Agile opponents can Dodge. or they could use Block as a super-dodge. There are also published examples of "(Martial) Block" as a "Just stand there and take it on the chin". SFX trump nomenclature in the Hero system.

 

And asking for a variant that is closer to reality does what? Your Block is still there for you to use. Enjoy. I am asking for a more realistic Block to be added that is LESS of a super-power....again, main problem:

 

Joe Schmoe can theoretically Block the Hulk....as can anyone with decent Karate Skill and the Special Effect is defined with Karate as interposing your hand or arm or limb to do so. Personally, I have a problem allowing that. Other Blocks, or "Active Defenses" maneuvers that use a different special effects would be allowed or disallowed per GM. I FULLY UNDERSTAND the concept of special effect. No need to re-explain it ad nauseum. Anyone in a Karate Class can purchase "Block", and providing they have the same Speed as Hulk, make him have a very frustrating day.

 

Picture....the Emerald Leviathan landing in the parking lot of the local strip mall bent upon rage and destruction. Uncle Sid's Karate Class is at the Local Pizza Hut enjoying their State Championship Trophies from the State Championships. Edna, the geriatric Brown Belt, flies into action and calls all the colored belts together (this is too sophisticated for the white belts, mind you). They surround the Hulk and all hold their actions until he strikes. First he attacks Chuck, the corner store grover, who Blocks the punch successfully. Then Little Timmy who just got his Yellow Belt (good thing he drilled on block to get his belt) but then he deals with Edna, the Black Belt (Now, he's in trouble) and she again Blocks him. Worse yet, with Block, one of these people could Block for another person they were right next to by sacrificing their action to do so using "Super-Dodge" for someone else? Or is it an imposition of a limb as first defined by the special effect. Hulk gets frutrated and leaps off.....maybe he can find a group of White Belts to pick on.

 

Sounds silly, doesn't it. Of course, you could say that you would never allow it in your game, but the normals paid the points for it. They purchased the points and they defined it as "the interposition of a limb" as their special effect. They are not limited to "not" buying it and per the rules, can Block quite well irregardless of the Hulk's Strength. Would you turn them down and say they CAN'T buy it or would you just say "That's silly." and turn them all into cream corn for messing with the Hulk, OR if their was a variant available that limited them per Strength, would you ask them to choose that option for the sake of a MORE realistic Block specifically for their special effect and for reality's sake if you were running a more realistic campaign? In all the write-ups of the Hulk, I have never seen Hulk purchased with Indirect Strength to overcome blocks. To place the burden on the character with plain superior strength seems skewed to me. Block should be able to be purchased with a limitiation for more realistic campaigns or a Block Maneuver Variant to directly represent what I believe the original intent of the maneuver was to represent should be available for the GM to limit his characters to for martial arts.

 

I believe it is a fundamental Flaw in the system. I believe their should be a variant for GM's who want to run a more realistic campaign that should be limited where Block IS relative to the to the Strength of the character where the special effect IS going to be an imposition rather than a Super-Dodge. According to the Block Maneuver, you can Block for someone else. How do you "Super-Dodge" for someone else? Shove them out of har,m's way? Isn't that a shove instead? (That was a rhetorical question but no doubt someone will try to come up with a way to "Super-Dodge" for a nearby opponent when they are not the target *sigh*)

 

At its core' date=' Missile deflection is no more than Block applicable to ranged attacks. It does not require a focus, and gets a limitation if it does, so your Billy Club example is skewed. In fact, 1e Champions required Missile Deflection have a focus, and 2e eliminated that requirement.[/quote']

 

Um....Hugh...the "stick" example was from above from YOUR post. I was repeating the example to illustrate as a GM, you have to listen to the special effects of a power to determine whether or not you will allow it in a campaign. I was using YOUR example, which you now claim is skewed. Missile Defelction is not normally purchaseable by "Normal" characters. And "at its core" it is a super-power not normally accessible to Normals in a campaign.....so who are you arguing with about Missile Deflection....not me. I don't have much of a problem with it as is.

 

As to the need for the GM to "buy into" my character's abilities' date=' I wonder how many of us would alllow a "Spider Sense" and/or a mechanical focus for webs for an otherwise naturally SpiderPoweredGuy, if Stan Lee hadn't added those in first.[/quote']

 

That's just the genre. If the GM allows it, he does. If he doesn't....then he doesn't. Four Color is not Dark Champions is not Pulp Hero is not Star Hero etc. If the GM said "That's silly....choose another FX for your danger sense" and the player retorted "But Spiderman has it." and the GM said "Yeah ....and...." You would wind up having to abandon the concept of the Danger Sense or come up with a new Special effect. That's why I say "If the GM doesn't "buy it, then the Player Character can't buy it.

 

I find it difficult to apply standards of realism to a man casting bursts of fire from his bare hands. If we wish to apply the standards of "realism"' date=' most Marvel Supers' origins should have resulted in a quick death, a lingering death or a lengthy recovery period, not superpowers. Applying realism to one facet of an unrealistic genre is, well, unrealistic.[/quote']

 

Wow...really disagree with you heartily on this one. If reality was not a concern, then why Dark champions to further illustrate how bullets react in the real world more closely? Why? Do you think you could don a mask and go out and fight crime in the "Real World"? I hope not. Applying more realistic standards to an "unrealistic" genre helps with "Suspension of Disbelief" and therefore "Immersion". Not everyone wants to be a four-color hero in a four-color world. The more variants we have to cover more "realistic" possibilities, then the more FLEXIBLE the system becomes, able to adapt to more and differing genres. HERO is not SOLELY for Super-hero campaigns, or at least I HOPE you don't think it is.

 

The shield is indestructible. I don't buy the energy absorption. Why' date=' then, would Cap's "classic" shield not allow the same "strap it to his feet and jump out of the plane" stunt which his all-vibranium shield DID allow for?[/quote']

 

The writer

 

[

Does Gladiator not hit as hard as "terminal velocity"?

 

Worse

 

Assuming he does not' date=' is the difference such that the spread alone would kill Cap?[/quote]

 

Perhaps I should reiterate that Gladiator is the Marvel equivolent to Superman....the Silver Age Superman.....the one who could fly through suns and shift planets with a shoulder nudge.

 

In the issue you describe' date=' Cap was affected by an image inducer, so the shield could not be seen. It's not a big stretch to suggest Cap angled the shield to avoid the worst of the blow. [/qoute']

 

Problem was, it didn't show him angling anything. It showed him just putting him in front of it.

 

Gladiator was pretty much enraged at the time' date=' so all he knows is he keeps hitting the target, who has no visible defenses of note, and the blows keep deflecting off.[/quote']

 

Yep. But Cap was just standing there taking it....no angling. It showed Cap getting the pounding and "talking" to someone beside him as he was doing so.

 

So? A Hero write up is hardly definitive to the Marvel characters. Neither is Wikipedia or' date=' as has been shown numerous times, the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. This approach uses the shield as a passive defense.[/quote']

 

And their are other approaches, just as definitive. When the subject is a fictional character there is NO source which can be taken as definitve when it is truly up to the whim of the writer but I use the research from Wikipedia as what I consider to be a good source. You use what you remember and can dig out of your long box as your source which is equally valid when it comes to research on a fictional character whose powers seem to change every 10 years or so. The latest Ultimate Captain America can apparently lift more weight than is humanly possible and the traditional cap was relegated to human maximum.

 

A bunch of Block/Missile deflect levels would allow him to avoid the attacks' date=' and thus take no knockback anyway. Most scenes where Cap blocks a huge attack (a Hulk punch; a huge EB) show him as focused on use of the shield, IOW using an action. Block requires an action. PD, ED and knockback resistance do not.[/quote']

 

But use of a shield often requires an activation. Perhaps better mechanics are needed to reflect Shield use as well.....thanks for that bit of thought gristle to chew on. *smile*

 

BTW' date=' you'll allow for a metal which absorbs impact, but not a super-dodge built as Block? Can that metal protect Cap from electricity, or must it be conductive?[/quote']

 

Hmmm...depends on the special effects. But it would probably be allowed in a Four-Color campsign....not in anything more realistic....at least when I am GMing.

 

IIRC, there was a link drawn between Cap's shield and adamantium. The original serendipity that created the shield was the impetus for adamantium research, I think, but there's at least difference between the two metals. I think they're more similar than different, however.

 

Which writer is correct?

 

Every single one...at least...in their world...

 

I don't like that Avengers portrayal' date=' but it's no less consistent with the previously established character than the FF portrayal of a shield that absorbs, rather than deflects, heavy impact. Avengers Annual #2 (where Cap must angle his shield just so to deflect Thor's hammer) was consistent with the established use of Cap's sheild many years before FF #250.[/qoute']

 

And thus, if we were playing in a game you ran, that would likley be the way the shield was written up. Its subjective. When you run under someone as a GM, you have to accept reality working in the way they percieve it.

 

It is called a superdodge:

 

"Super Dodge" Martial Block OCV +2 DCV +2 Block and +6 OCV levels with Block.

 

Does it also take the limitation:Cannot use this Block for others -1/2? If you can use it for others, how do you define that special effect?

 

Do you also prohibit an Energy Blast applying against physical defense based on the nomenclature? Powers' date=' skills, maneuvers, etc. are just building blocks. They have names because we need shortcuts to writing them down, but their names are not definitive of their effects, much less their special effects.[/quote']

 

No but they are there to represent things in a "realistic" world which, when defined loosely, leads to some odd effects. The Block maneuver can be used to prevent yourself or others from being damaged by an active application of your OCV. DOdge is active application of your DCV. For four-color campaigns...this works fine. Define the special effects as you desire. For more realistic campaigns, perhaps some options should be made available for those GM's that want them.

 

The fundamental which your arguments argue should be changed is that the name of the ability is divorced from its SFX. I remain in favour of that fundamental - Hero got it right. To change that means greatly restricting SFX of various abilities' date=' and vastly reducing the flexibility of the Hero system.[/quote']

 

I disagree. To offer a rules variant for those who want it is to offer flexibility to the GM.

 

And I don't see many normal humans blocking the Hulk's punch' date=' even if they are trained martial artists with Martial Block. A normal human OCV's not high enough to pull that off with any consistency. In any case, it doesn't bother me if there are some disconnects when 350 (at least) point characters are pitted against "normal humans", or even Skilled Normals. I'm unlikely to play out a combat between the Hulk and Rick Jones. Rick either gets away by the skin of his teeth, gets hospitalized or gets killed, depending on the needs of the story.[/quote']

 

But that is GM fiat... nothing to do with the rules. Acccept the rule "I am GM....what I say goes."

 

Neither am I likely to set a creature such as the Hulk on "normal human" player characters' date=' unless they have some equalizing measure (at which point they are likely no longer "normal humans").[/quote']

 

See above.

 

You and I differ in opinion and I respect the tenacity with which you defend your points and the merit with the logical arguments which you defend them. However, I remain unconvinced that Block Maneuver, as it stands, is perfect for every genre. While I think it is great for four color, I think a more relaistic Variant is needed to reflect the use and application of Strength in a realistic campaign. I believe my points above are equally as valid and logical. I think we must respectfully agree to disagree.

 

Not to sound snarky (or offend anyone) but is the concept of a rule variant....one that is OPTIONAL and not necessary for GM's to use if they don't want to, this irritating and upsetting to HERO fans this much?

 

I conceeded that it would need to be a variant long ago and that it should not be cannon for the rules. It WOULD be a fundamental change to the way Block was run *IF* the GM choose to use that variant.

 

Let me put my thinking cap on, and take a look at writing this up....I will make a separate thread for you to tear into it. *chuckle* In the mean time, say....I have a question....

 

What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I believe you can take Linked on each power' date=' such that they become all or nothing.[/quote']

You can, I believe it is a GM Permission type thing, but it is not explicitely forbidden.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

And asking for a variant that is closer to reality does what? Your Block is still there for you to use. Enjoy. I am asking for a more realistic Block to be added that is LESS of a super-power....again' date=' [b']main problem[/b]:

 

Your assertion that your variant is "closer to reality" is, in my view, fundamentally flawed. There is no "reality" of a creature able to lift hundreds of tons and punch with the force of an artillery shell. There is, therefore, no objective "realism" to compare this to.

 

More to the point, as noted previously, if we accept that this must change in the name of "realism", what else is not "realistic" and must also be changed? Some examples:

 

- if Block needs to change to be more "realistic" in light of huge STR opponents, shouldn't Missile Deflection change to be more "realistic" against huge ranged attacks that shold not be stopped by interposing an object, but should just blast aside/destroy the object?

 

- if my Speedster can't block the Hulk because it's not "realistic", how can SpiderMan block my Speedster's "I hit you 1000 times in a second" hand attack. It's not fair. It's not realistic.

 

- for that matter, how can Spidey possibly raise his arm fast enough to Block my speedster who can run 100 miles in the time Spidey takes to blink. It's not fair. It's not realistic.

 

- how come Joe Normal can dive for cover if my Speedster tries to attack him?

 

- If Hulk's high STR means he can't be Blocked, how come Thing's rocky skin doesn't give him an automatic Damage Aura when he's hit by a lesser mortal? You can't punch a brick wall without hurting your hand! It's not realistic!!!

 

- How can Elecro's Electro-Blast, spread to fill a hex, be missile deflected? The target's still in the hex, isn't he? He can't deflect a whole hex full of electricity, can he? It's not realistic!!

 

Joe Schmoe can theoretically Block the Hulk....as can anyone with decent Karate Skill and the Special Effect is defined with Karate as interposing your hand or arm or limb to do so. Personally' date=' I have a problem allowing that. Other Blocks, or "Active Defenses" maneuvers that use a different special effects would be allowed or disallowed per GM. I FULLY UNDERSTAND the concept of special effect. No need to re-explain it ad nauseum. Anyone in a Karate Class can purchase "Block", and providing they have the same Speed as Hulk, make him have a very frustrating day.[/quote']

 

Who says that every Karate block is sticking your arm in the way? A Karate Strike can be a kick or a punch. There's no reason a Block can't be a step out of the way as easily as sticking your arm in the way. Your assumption that sticking your arm in the way is the only possible special effect for a martial block, or the standard Block maneuver (you DON'T NEED martial arts to block) contradicts your claim to "fully understand the concept of special effect", at least as it applies to combat maneuvers.

 

Your claim that "all it takes" is a Block and equal speed to "frustrate the Hulk for the day" is, in my view, way off base. Let's consider the "realism" of that claim.

 

First off, this isn't a Normal. He has at least 10 points of Martial Arts maneuvers (the minimum to have a true Martial Block). He has a 4 SPD (the lowest I've seen suggested in Hulk writeups - 3 may be arguable) and let's give him a 14 DEX as well. That's 38 points on these three items alone, so he's moving up the chain from "basic normal", though still nowhere near a Super's league.

 

Second, to Martial Block, he needs to win an OCV vs OCV roll against the Hulk. His OCV is 7 (5 for DEX, +2 for the martial maneuver). I wouldn't put the Hulk less than 10 - he's hit a lot of fast and/por combat savvy supers in his time, without a lot of difficulty. So our Karate Normal needs an 8- to block. He might get lucky and pull it off once, maybe twice. A steady stream? Not a chance. And the first one that misses, he wakes up in hospital if he wakes up at all.

 

Third, does he have an action to block? The Hulk's PRE attack should have staggered him, at a minimum.

 

Fourth, if he can evade the Hulk with his block, what does he do when the Hulk:

 

- rips the ground out from under him?

- throws a car at him?

- pounds the ground and knocks him over, stunning him?

- roars at the PUNY HUMAN! and makes a real PRE attack?

 

You are grossly overestimating the effectiveness of a Block.

 

An added point - this is consistent with the source material. The Hulk has been held at bay by a Japanese lady scientist, a senior citizen no less, who had skills in Aikido. His blows were evaded (Dodge), redirected (Block) and he was ultimately thrown to the ground (illegal martial throw - she wasn't strong enough to lift him). I would prefer the rules be no more "realistic" than the genre.

 

By the way, if you accept some Block SFX could block the Hulk and others could not, how do you propose to adjust their point costs so the more (less) useful maneuver carries a cost commensurate with its greater (lesser) utility. You could just force the normal to put a limitation on Block that he "can't block anyone of X+ STR". Is it even a -1/4? Probably not, when considering how often a normal will run across some one at that STR level, and the relative merits of attempting a block over such maneuvers as fleeing in terror, hiding and hoping to go unnoticed, and begging for your life.

 

Worse yet' date=' with Block, one of these people could Block for another person they were right next to by sacrificing their action to do so using "Super-Dodge" for someone else? Or is it an imposition of a limb as first defined by the special effect. Hulk gets frutrated and leaps off.....maybe he can find a group of White Belts to pick on.[/quote']

 

Actually, Blocking for another is just as easily interpreted as "I push Fred out of the way before the blow lands", or "I tackle Fred to the ground to avoid the strike". That seems more cinematic than silly to me, although the line between the two is somewhat blurry. There's that nasty old SFX issue rearing its handsome head again!

 

Sounds silly' date=' doesn't it. Of course, you could say that you would never allow it in your game, but the normals paid the points for it. They purchased the points and they defined it as "the interposition of a limb" as their special effect. They are not limited to "not" buying it and per the rules, can Block quite well irregardless of the Hulk's Strength. Would you turn them down and say they CAN'T buy it or would you just say "That's silly." and turn them all into cream corn for messing with the Hulk, OR if their was a variant available that limited them per Strength, would you ask them to choose that option for the sake of a MORE realistic Block specifically for their special effect and for reality's sake if you were running a more realistic campaign? In all the write-ups of the Hulk, I have never seen Hulk purchased with Indirect Strength to overcome blocks. To place the burden on the character with plain superior strength seems skewed to me. Block should be able to be purchased with a limitiation for more realistic campaigns or a Block Maneuver Variant to directly represent what I believe the original intent of the maneuver was to represent should be available for the GM to limit his characters to for martial arts.[/quote']

 

It's even wqorse than you say, since they can always use the Standard Maneuver block to do the same thing - Martial Block just makes it easier by providing some bonuses. If I really wanted to further limit block (which, as discussed above, likely WON'T WORK ANYWAY), I'd impose a 0 point limitation or disad on it. The issue of "forcing" someone to apply it is moot. I've yet to see a game where the normals are PC's and the adversaries are Hulk-level. Mind you, this kind of option may belong in a Horror Hero campaign - but that source book has yet to be written.

 

As to the fact Hulk doesn't have indirect on his STR, it would be untrue to the source material. He gets blocked by little old lady scientists with Aikido. That happened in one issue - precisely the same number in which Captain America blocks Gladiator, but the lady wasn't covered by an image inducer, so we could see exactly what she was doing.

 

I believe it is a fundamental Flaw in the system.

 

I do not consider any combat maneuver so germane that it is a fundamental anything. That's my problem with the title of the thread. I would, however, consider the argument that "the system has chosen a cinematic style rather than a more realistic style" to be fundamental to the system, as it permeates the choices made. I agree with that choice, so I do not consider it a flaw.

 

I believe their should be a variant for GM's who want to run a more realistic campaign that should be limited where Block IS relative to the to the Strength of the character where the special effect IS going to be an imposition rather than a Super-Dodge. According to the Block Maneuver' date=' you can Block for someone else. How do you "Super-Dodge" for someone else? Shove them out of har,m's way? Isn't that a shove instead? (That was a rhetorical question but no doubt someone will try to come up with a way to "Super-Dodge" for a nearby opponent when they are not the target *sigh*)[/quote']

 

As noted above, before I actually read this statement, yes, a shove out of the way is a perfectly legitimate special effect for a Block. Just like a Strike could be a punch, a kick, a head butt, an elbow smash, a well-placed knee or any of dozens of other effects - all usable by the same character at various times.

 

That's just the genre. If the GM allows it' date=' he does. If he doesn't....then he doesn't. Four Color is not Dark Champions is not Pulp Hero is not Star Hero etc. If the GM said "That's silly....choose another FX for your danger sense" and the player retorted "But Spiderman has it." and the GM said "Yeah ....and...." You would wind up having to abandon the concept of the Danger Sense or come up with a new Special effect. That's why I say "If the GM doesn't "buy it, then the Player Character can't buy it.[/quote']

 

I'm sensitive to this one in that some GM's go too far (IMO) substituting their imagination for the players'. In a non-Supers genre, you won't have SpiderMan. In a Supers genre, however, he would be allowed Danager Sense and mechanical webshooters because Stan allowed it. If, however, Spidy had never been published, I suspect some of the "my creativity" GM's would have:

 

- denied Spider-Sense as a spider power because "spiders don't have special senses"

 

- denied mechanical webshooters because "his powers should be all focuses or none of them - besides, how does a high school student invent this stuff"

 

If you're playing a CSI: NY game, no one's going to have spider sense and webshooters. Mind you, I wonder whether you would allow a character who can exercise retrocognition by object reading in your "realistic cops in a Supers world" game (Gotham Central did).

 

Wow...really disagree with you heartily on this one. If reality was not a concern' date=' then why Dark champions to further illustrate how bullets react in the real world more closely? Why? Do you think you could don a mask and go out and fight crime in the "Real World"? I hope not. Applying more realistic standards to an "unrealistic" genre helps with "Suspension of Disbelief" and therefore "Immersion". Not everyone wants to be a four-color hero in a four-color world. The more variants we have to cover more "realistic" possibilities, then the more FLEXIBLE the system becomes, able to adapt to more and differing genres. HERO is not SOLELY for Super-hero campaigns, or at least I HOPE you don't think it is.[/quote']

 

In a non-Supers campaign, the ability to Block a being of Hulk-level strength should not come up. Therefore, a rule to make such a block impossible in the interests of "realism" should not be needed in such a game.

 

You could certainly don a mask and fight crime in the real world. You'll shortly be dead, hospitalized or jailed, but you can certainly do it.

 

Your comments focus on the ability of Joe SixPack to block the Hulk. In what realistic genre is this an issue? The Hulk is a Super. Supers are unrealistic. No need for a rule on massive STR variance impacting Block. If we remove Supers, the massive STR spread goes away. No need for a rule on massive STR variance impacting Block. Please give me an example of a genre where such a rule is, in fact, fundamental.

 

Problem was, it didn't show him angling anything. It showed him just putting him in front of it.

 

Yep. But Cap was just standing there taking it....no angling. It showed Cap getting the pounding and "talking" to someone beside him as he was doing so.

 

IIRC, the issue in question never shows the combat between Cap and Gladiator. It shows Gladiator hitting Reed Richards, a Reed who is unfazed. We never see how Cap is using the shield, as we don't see a non-imaged Cap until after Gladiator is taken down.

 

As to the "silver age superman" comparison, Gladiator is an homage, not the character himself. He has been beaten soundly by Thunderstrike (when he was acting as Thor). That puts him in, or even a bit below, the Hulk's league. Cap can block the Hulk and Thor, but has been consistently shown as needing to do so through skill, not just sticking the shield in the way. Given this, and the fact we don't see how Cap blocks Gladiator in the one occurence of that event, the most "realistic" (to overuse that word some more) interpretation is that he still angles the shield.

 

But use of a shield often requires an activation. Perhaps better mechanics are needed to reflect Shield use as well.....thanks for that bit of thought gristle to chew on. *smile*

 

Back to SFX. The Shield could be used to Block (OCV vs OCV roll), enhance DCV (Fantasy Hero shield), provide defenses with an activation roll, or provide defenses with no activation roll (shield wall; or he's just that good). It could require use of an action, or not, depending on how one builds it.

 

Does it also take the limitation:Cannot use this Block for others -1/2? If you can use it for others' date=' how do you define that special effect?[/quote']

 

Old ground. Shove/lift/drag/move them out of the way as the attack falls.

 

I disagree. To offer a rules variant for those who want it is to offer flexibility to the GM.

 

An optional rule is not something I would consider "fundamental". But again, I ask what that optional rule should be, and what games it would be used in? What spread of STR would prevent Block, in your view, in realistic campaigns? Would that spread of STR exist in that game? If the spread is, say, 30 STR difference, will we see a lot of 40 STR combatants in that realistic game?

 

But that is GM fiat... nothing to do with the rules. Accept the rule "I am GM....what I say goes."

 

It is the uberrule that common sense and dramatic sense override the rules as written. If I'm playing a Two Fisted Pulp game, I don't need a special rule to tell me that Slam Bradley can't Block a move through from a charging bull elephant.

 

Let me put my thinking cap on, and take a look at writing this up....I will make a separate thread for you to tear into it. *chuckle* In the mean time, say....I have a question....

 

What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

As noted above, while I would make some changes to specifics (and some likely only in some genres), none are fundamental to the system. In my view, Hero gets the funamentals right.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

all this talk of realism in my RPG ... it's just not right I tell you.

[Robyn]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I would reduce Desolidification to a defensive component and a movement component. The concept for that power suffers from an inconsistency: the character can "ignore gravity" to walk through the ground, passing through some of it but finding the rest "solid" enough to plant their feet upon, but cannot move through air in exactly the same way without buying Flight.

 

I wouldn't make Desolidification an "Invulnerability"; you can't stand in front of the innocents and deflect bullets meant for them. The attacks would pass right through you. But you can walk along the ground through a car made of metal (if you are Desolid to metal but not to the ground, which is a good idea if you don't want gravity to pull you down below the surface), just as someone trying to run you down would pass through you (or, at least, their vehicle would, which might get rather unpleasant if their body hit yours).

 

Characters who wanted to be able to move about underground would take Tunneling with the SFX "passes right through it", and Link it to the Desolidification. This would effectively be "Flight, through solid substances" (a comparison that has been made before).

[ghost-angel]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

You're proposing to make Desolidification "Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects" by default, instead of as a Limitation on Desol.

[Robyn]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

You're proposing to make Desolidification "Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects" by default' date=' instead of as a Limitation on Desol.[/quote']

 

No, not quite that - if the character takes a running leap and turns their Desolid on during midair, then off again before they land, they could leap right through a solid concrete wall into the secure facility. If the concrete wall went down several meters, they'd need to worry about stepping across (because their feet wouldn't meet resistance), but could feel their way around (test the waters, so to speak) before proceeding. If it didn't, they could just walk straight across, unless metal bars were laid through the concrete.

 

A character with Desolid to wood (and metal) could run through a furniture store without worrying about anything getting in their way.

 

They wouldn't, however, be able to pick up any of that furniture and throw it at their enemies:

 

GM: "But wait, you're Desolid to wood."

PC: "Yes, but I'm going to choose to not be Desolid to this particular piece of wood."

GM: "I'd let you do that if you were making the wood Desolid, but the power affects you - either you're Desolid to wood or you aren't."

 

The inconsistency I see is that the PC is basically getting Selective Targeting for free. They choose what they want to be Desolid to, when they want to be Desolid to it - and that strikes me as both setting a bad precedent for other uses of the power, and going against the established spirit of the power's concept.

 

I mean, at that point, we might as well say "I'm only Desolid to other people's weapons, I'm not Desolid to mine, so I can swing at them without worrying about them hitting me back.", and that's not how the power works: it's a blatant attempt to sidestep the requirement for an "Affects Physical World" advantage on attacks, with a Naked freebie. But it's fully consistent with the current usage of Desolid to "walk" through the ground, which is why this power should be changed.

[Ganesh]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Heh. I love getting down into the guts of systems and playing with them (compulsive tinkerer/theoretical math nerd, it's a calling), so I have a few...

 

Cosmetically, I'd divide everything relating to points by 5, and just hold on to halves, thirds, fourths, etc. when costing. This also puts Characteristics on a 1-4 scale before NCM kicks in. Instead of Figured Characteristics, you have recommendations for what level of the "figured characteristics" fit with what Characteristics in a human being, which the GM may enforce more or less strongly.

 

While we're at it, make the DC the basic unit of damage, rather than the pip. This does require some basic adjusting, as amor, damage, stun, rec, body, and probably a few other things all become measured in DCs as well. Bump adjustment and mental powers a bit so that their basic "DC" is one point of effect (i.e. 5 of the old points of effect).

 

(other minor changes: an explicit lift/push power, movement powers turned into a skill with "movement groups" like sense groups, desolid divided into a movement power (sort of like continuous teleport) and a damage-resisting power with signifigant built-in side effects)

 

On a much more sweeping level, there are two big things I'd like to see:

 

First, and more simply, I'd like to see all the body-affecting powers done away with. Replace them with a power/skill construct that causes the character to have access to certain powers depending on what he's doing with his form, probably with something like a Reserve Cost (for how many RP of form can be expressed at once") and specific characteristics (either beneficial or disadvantagous) can be purchased for something like abs(real cost)/5. Having disadvantages (which you payed points to be able to have on your form) active increases the effective size of the reserve for the purposes of more beneficial characteristics, and there's some sort of advantage/limitation controlling the switching of forms, not unlike a VPP.

 

Second, and more fundamental: mode advantages and limitation multiplicative, rather than additive -- effectively doing away with the concept of Base Cost. My personal scheme is to make each +1/2 advantage into an Enhancer, seven of which multiply the base cost of a power by 12 (so 2 enhancers basically doubles the cost, three basically triples, yes a nice chart would be a good idea). Each -1/2 limitation becomes a Limiter, and each N limiters reduce the effective number of Enhancers by one for the purpose of cost. For example: with 1 limiter, reduce costs as though there were 1 less Enhacner. with 3 limiters, reduce costs as though there were 2 less Enhancers. With 6 limiters, reduce cost as though there were 3 less Enhancers. With 21 limiters, reduce costs as though there were 6 less enhancers.

 

This, along with generalizing some effects and putting things like "which kind of defense reduce this" into the Enhancer/Limiter soup, allows one to have far, far fewer base powers and I think cleans things up a good bit. On the other hand, it reduces some amount of system control on power selection, so I propose a variable enhancer/limiter, that may only be applied by the GM (recommended to help shape genre), on how commonly avaiable the power is. If teleport is difficult but possible in this world, make it more expensive. If magic is the most common SFX and anyone who claims to be a "keeper of the peace" carries around a fairly hefty Dispell Magic, then Magic should be cheaper. If Cyberkinetics are at the bleeding edge of corporate technology and can do things nobody else can, Cyberkinetic powers should be more costly. If desolid is commonplace, and security is designed accordingly, then desolid should be cheaper -- not only because its somewhat less useful (it doesn't make you a master intruder, it makes you an average intruder), but also to encourage everyone to actually take it.

 

Given this sort of thing, you can pare down to under 15 subsystems/powers pretty easily.

 

Basically, it gives PCs some mechanical reason to follow the physics of your particular genre, and explain what's common in the world and what isn't.

[tesuji]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I would reduce Desolidification to a defensive component and a movement component. The concept for that power suffers from an inconsistency: the character can "ignore gravity" to walk through the ground' date=' passing through some of it but finding the rest "solid" enough to plant their feet upon, but cannot move through air in [i']exactly the same way[/i] without buying Flight.

 

I get what you are saying but franly, practically every instance of desolid in supers I know of, and in lit and Tv etc, handwaves this to work exactly as described.

 

A desolid guy can walk up stairs, walk on floor, I even recall seeing one desolid guy on Tv show sitting on a filing cabinet then hopping down. And imo its primarily because if you start treating desolid to its full logical conclusion it becomes a useless character trait as the resulting character is nigh useless.

 

A truly desolid character cannot breathe, desolid lungs cannot pull in air,

right?

He obviously cannot talk.

can he even see if light can pass right thru him without affecting him, as in lasers don't affect him?

and then there is the whole gravioty vs centripetal/centrifugal forces argument. Does he sink into the earth (he has mass but no resistance) or does he fly off it (no mass so no gravity to hold him against being flung away)?

 

Simply put, almost every version of desolid in the comics handwaves almost every issue of "doesn't interact with physical/energy" to make the character's useful and having the default basic simplest "buy desolid" cost handle things that way makes sense to me. Less work for someone to build a character "like in the sources".

 

This is much the same to me as having flight as a power at its simplest be flight, not flight starting as "levitation" and buying it up to be flight.

[Robyn]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

A truly desolid character cannot breathe' date=' desolid lungs cannot pull in air,[/quote']

 

Not a "solid" in the first place.

 

can he even see if light can pass right thru him without affecting him' date=' as in lasers don't affect him?[/quote']

 

He would buy "Invisibility" for that; also, and again, lasers are not solids.

 

and then there is the whole gravioty vs centripetal/centrifugal forces argument.

 

Again, not a solid. Seems pretty straightforward to me. If you want your character to be Desolid versus more than one substance, buy it that way; it doesn't come default (you have to specify, even if it's a pretty broad range such as "solid artificial material").

[schir1964]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

You're proposing to make Desolidification "Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects" by default' date=' instead of as a Limitation on Desol.[/quote']

This specific limitation is excellent for SFX: Mist, Vapor, and Gas. All of which are not able to pass through solid objects, yet offer no protection from objects passing through them.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Ganesh]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Hey, just a little weighing in on the "desolid" issue...

 

Intangibility is an effect that makes very little physical sense: trying to model it "realistically" is...special.

 

The closest realistic model I can think of for desolid is mystform -- a somehow coherent body of gass that can alight on surfaces or waft through tiny openings, but can't exert any force. This obviously isn't the kind of desolid that people who walk through solid walls have, but there's nothing I've ocme up with to do reasonable compairisons on that.

 

In general, in comics, intagible characters seem to be in sensory interaction with the real world, but are actually moving through a world where only the scenery exists. What makes something scenery? Well, it's mostly dramatic logic, but large inanimate (or nonmotile) objects seem to be about it, and that only sometimes...you can see desolid characters sit on the hoods of cars, then have a car drive through them...sometimes with the desolid character passing through the hood, the front seat, and then tagging along in the back seat. You can see desolid characters sit in chairs, and then walk through them...same with leaning on walls. Some get to walk on clouds and other near-intangible substances. Some don't. There really isn't any logic to it. In other words, "desolid" is (IMMHO) a special effect, not a power.

 

What effects does it tend to have? Well, being a perfect dodge is a primary example. DVC: don't even think about it. This is true for basically all intangible characters. It also usually works against area attacks, in defiance of hero system logic.

 

Second, many of them have the ability to selectively walk through things, although they definitely get to choose what they walk through and what they don't...Shadowcat can dive through the floor as easily as walk on it, and don't get me started on stairs. :'] I think this is best simulated as a movement power: Teleportation is moving from here to there without caring about obstacles the path, so long as you move all at once. Walking while intangible is moving from here to there without caring about obstacles in the path, but you can move at any rate you please. This also allows fairly easily for adjustment, so Sandman can travel through chainlink, Stone Guy can only move through earth and rock, and Nutrino can move through whatever she darn well pleases.

 

However, when sandman is halfway through the fence, he can stop to cobber a few people...and Stone Guy can get hit with a club when he pokes his head through the wall, because he's never really intangible--he just merges with the rock on one end, adn comes out on the other.

 

Likewise, someone who is a hologram might be impervious to attacks, but unable to pass through any opaque or reflective object...possibly even including a pane of glass.

 

"I can pass through wood" and "I cannot be harmed by wood" might, depending on SFX, be linked powers, but there's plenty of models where one would hold and not the other.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Back on the "Block" debate for a sec...

 

If you don't think just anybody should be able to block a punch from the Hulk there is a solution available that is far simpler than changing the rules for Block.

 

When making your HERO version of Hulk be sure to buy a HA attack with Indirect. That way, when Hulk uses the attack it can only be blocked by something hardened in some fashion (Captain America's Shield, Thor's Hammer, etc...)

[ghost-angel]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

This specific limitation is excellent for SFX: Mist, Vapor, and Gas. All of which are not able to pass through solid objects, yet offer no protection from objects passing through them.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

I know that. I was trying to figure out exactly what Robyn was trying to do.

 

The response cleared it up.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I like how people try to "realistically and logically" model something that has no basis in reality.

 

I laugh at them.

[Hierax]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Break things into the basic 4 that was discussed and rejected for 4th ed.:

• Attack

• Defend

• Move

• Percieve

Have everything be built from these with Modifiers.

 

Decimal Modifiers instead of Fractions. And have a cancelling out effect of Advantages - Limitations = Modifier then do the math.

 

Make each single point count and add extra granularity both above and below the average.

 

Make Defences cost as much as Attacks not be cheaper than.

 

Have a real scaling/Size mechanic that is consistent.

 

Purge the remaining super-hero Champions biases and make the system universal.