VPP Question

[Kurgan224]

Hey there, got a question on powers in a VPP, basically need to find out if something is possible, how to do it, etc.

 

If a PC take a cosmic VPP, so able to change at will with no roll, and one of the powers is, say, a force field, does the field stay up if it's 0 END Persistant but the pool is changed to a different power?

 

If not, is there a way to have a power go up and stay up even if the pool is changed?

[bigdamnhero]

Re: VPP Question

 

If I understand your question right, as soon as the PC re-allocates the Pool's points to a different power, the previous power stops working; see 5ER p325. Now, if the PC had, say, 100 points in his VPP and only needed 50 to run his forcefield, he might (depending on how you build it) be able to allocate the other 50 points to something else. But he has to keep 50 points allocated to the forcefield if he wants to keep it up.

 

[Edit: Think of it this way - if you allowed the focefield to stay up, then he's essentially getting a free (ie - no cost in character points) permanent power every time he switches. VPPs are (potentially) unbalancing enough as it is! ]

[Zed-F]

Re: VPP Question

 

If not' date=' is there a way to have a power go up and stay up even if the pool is changed?[/quote']

 

Yes. Buy a power with a continuing charge in your VPP.

Warning: Heavy GM permission requirement, easily abusable (even more than usual for VPPs) and there is a distinct odor of fromage associated with it. If you need to do this to model some effect and you're the GM or the GM is running a sufficiently rules-loose game, great. Otherwise, stay away.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: VPP Question

 

Yes. Buy a power with a continuing charge in your VPP.

Warning: Heavy GM permission requirement, easily abusable (even more than usual for VPPs) and there is a distinct odor of fromage associated with it. If you need to do this to model some effect and you're the GM or the GM is running a sufficiently rules-loose game, great. Otherwise, stay away.

Yeah, hadn't thought about continuing charges. Well done, and repped. You're right about it being cheesy as ****, tho. There might be some situation where I would allow this, but none comes to mind. But then, it's not my campaign.

 

Oh BTW, Welcome to the boards Kurgan224! (Didn't notice this was your first post!)

[Nevenall]

Re: VPP Question

 

Uncontrolled (+1/2) will also allow a power to stay active even if the pool is changed.

[gojira]

Re: VPP Question

 

I'm honestly not sure I'd allow either one of those (continuing charges, or uncontrolled) to have the effect you want. It's still unbalancing.

 

When Fred Gunbunny pulls the pin on his continuing charge smoke grenade, he then doesn't get to reallocate those points into extra damage on his bullets or something. That charge is *gone*, and he can't get those points back until he can replenish those charges.

 

Sure, in your games do what ever you like, I'm just saying my cheese detector just shot off the scale. GMs besides yours might well put the kibosh on that use of VPPs.

 

Buy extra points in the VPP, and leave those points allocated until the charge runs out. (Or the uncontrolled ends, or you turn off the power normally, or... etc.) That's the only way I'd allow it.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: VPP Question

 

I forgot about Uncontrolled; that would be legal too, and perhaps slightly less cheesy than Continuing Charges. Have to agree with gojira that it's probably not something I'd allow, barring extraordinary circumstances. Still...points for creativity.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP Question

 

I forgot about Uncontrolled; that would be legal too' date=' and perhaps slightly less cheesy than Continuing Charges. Have to agree with gojira that it's probably not something I'd allow, barring extraordinary circumstances. Still...points for creativity. [/quote']

 

Uncontrolled seems OK, given the character would have to pump it full of END before switching his VPP.

 

I'm inclined to have charges reduce the VPP points available overall until those charges would have recovered. So if you take a 12d6 EB, 1 charge in your 60 point VPP (for 20 point), and fire it, you now only have 40 points (but still 60 active points) available in your VPP until that charge would recover. But if you'll allow it, my character will have a VPP for Attacks Only, with 1 charge on all powers in it...

 

12d6 Fire EB

12d6 Sonic EB

12d6 Cold EB

12d6 Anvil hits you EB

12d6 Force Pulse EB

12d6 Acid EB

ad infinitum

 

For 30 points (I'll make it Cosmic), I go from 1 attack power to any attack power I want, so long as I keep varying the SFX.

 

I can have three at once, so how about allowing me to MPA as well?

[bigdamnhero]

Re: VPP Question

 

For 30 points (I'll make it Cosmic), I go from 1 attack power to any attack power I want, so long as I keep varying the SFX.

 

I can have three at once, so how about allowing me to MPA as well?

Wow, from "kinda cheesy" to "completely broken" in 8 posts or less. Is that a new record?

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP Question

 

When Fred Gunbunny pulls the pin on his continuing charge smoke grenade' date=' he then doesn't get to reallocate those points into extra damage on his bullets or something. That charge is *gone*, and he can't get those points back until he can replenish those charges.[/quote']

While I won'y argue the cheese factor of Charges in a VPP.... you're actually going against the standard rules completely.

 

If you set up nine Powers in a VPP, each with 10 Charges and you use 1 Charge from Power 1 and 1 charge from Power 3 you don't have 8 Charges left, you have 10 Charges in Powers 2, 4-9 and 9 Charges in Powers 1 and 3.

 

Continuing or otherwise. What you can't do is switch out the points to something else and then have 10 Charges when you switch back. You have to wait until the Charge Recovers before you get 10 Charges again, no matter how many times you switch around the VPP Power allocations.

 

The "Charge" is gone, the Pool Points it took are NOT.

 

Unless the VPP itself was bought with 10 Charges.

[Jaxom]

Re: VPP Question

 

Actually, Steve Long addressed Continuing Charges in the Q&A forum. Someone pointed out that for a relatively small +2 Advantage a player could set up a 60 point VPP with continuing charges that were a century long (not my math, taken from the example in the other thread) and then build a whole host of pet bots with 20-point effects.

 

This is my flight backpack, this is my taser, this is my rebreather, this is my ...

 

It was pointed out that this could be very easily abused and should be watched closely by a GM although it was not a direct violation of the rules.

[gojira]

Re: VPP Question

 

It was pointed out that this could be very easily abused and should be watched closely by a GM although it was not a direct violation of the rules.

 

Right. It's total cheese, de facto abusive, and this GM would say "no way."

 

There might be some use, somewhere for this construct, but I can't see what or how. My players would just not be allowed to do this period.

[Zed-F]

Re: VPP Question

 

Here's another way to do it.

 

Buy a 1/1 FF outside your VPP. Buy some cheap armoured costume too.

Buy an Aid inside your VPP to ED. And another to PD. and another to FF. And another to Armour.

Or buy one Aid to all 4 of them at once.

Or do the same with a Succor. Might as well make it continuous and 0 END while you're at it, you have a VPP right?

Any way you slice it, it still smells of cheese. Only now you're abusing both the VPP and adjustment powers.

 

Expect the GM to be ripping up your char sheet soon if you try this at home.

[gojira]

Re: VPP Question

 

Yes, again legal but any GM would squish it.

 

I was just thinking that a VPP with continuing charges in it isn't much different from a large Multipower with lots of continuing charges. Does this mean that continuing charges in a Multipower should be regarded as dubious also?

 

What framework could you put continuing charges in? EC doesn't work 'cause charges don't cost END. Is "costs end only to activate" legal in an EC? (I have sidekick, so I'm not sure)

 

I think continuing charges woud be best in a gadget pool, with the lim "only change powers at a base." That make s the most sense to me, and it seems to be the least abusive.

 

Other thoughts?

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP Question

 

What framework could you put continuing charges in? EC doesn't work 'cause charges don't cost END. Is "costs end only to activate" legal in an EC? (I have sidekick' date=' so I'm not sure)[/quote']

EC would work... the END rule on ECs is "must cost END by default" - so you could put a power than normally costs END in an EC and buy it to 0END or with Charges and still be legal.

 

Costs END Only to Activate is also legal in an EC.

 

 

cheese factors not accounted for ... text book legal does not make it a game appropriate power.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: VPP Question

 

Yes, once again we come back to "Just because the system allows you to do something doesn't mean you should do it." But hey, the initial question was whether or not it was possible.

I think continuing charges woud be best in a gadget pool' date=' with the lim "only change powers at a base." That make s the most sense to me, and it seems to be the least abusive.[/quote']

Alternate cheese-reduction strategy: taking charges on the VPP itself so you have 10 charges total rather than 10 charges in each of the powers.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP Question

 

I personally see no issue with Charges inside a VPP, it's a good way to handle Gadgeteers.

 

Kept within reason of course.

[gojira]

Re: VPP Question

 

EC would work... the END rule on ECs is "must cost END by default" - so you could put a power than normally costs END in an EC and buy it to 0END or with Charges and still be legal....Costs END Only to Activate is also legal in an EC.

 

What about continuing charges, persistent, uncontrolled or continuous powers in a Multipower?

[gojira]

Re: VPP Question

 

Alternate cheese-reduction strategy: taking charges on the VPP itself so you have 10 charges total rather than 10 charges in each of the powers.

 

That's a good idea too. From a list of 30 possible bombs the character has invented, he carries 10 at any time, and he can choose which ones "on the fly." Works for me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP Question

 

What about continuing charges' date=' persistent, uncontrolled or continuous powers in a Multipower?[/quote']

Technically legal I believe.... I'll have to get home to my books to site a page reference though, be a couple hours.

 

Persistant and Continuous automatically shut off when slot allocations switch.

Uncontrolled goes on after slot allocations are switch.

I'm unsure on Continuing Charges off the top of my head.

[Zed-F]

Re: VPP Question

 

Continuing charges go on after you switch slots (VPP or MP.)

 

Charges + VPP is something to keep an eye on, just like charges + MP. (If you are an archer with trick arrows and you have an MP with 12 ultra slots and 12 arrows each, that's 144 0 END attacks... a -1/4 lim on each slot, and you'll never run out.) It's not necessarily bad, but depending on how well the character as a whole is balanced relative to the other characters, it may be part of the problem. Continuing charges in a MP are even more so. A little bit is fine, especially on an infrequently-used power, but it's easy to go overboard.

 

Charges in an EC is perfectly rules-legal.

Costs END Only to activate is perfectly legal in an EC, but normally it's only intended to be used for Body Adjustment powers. So a costs END only to activate FF is in GM-permission land.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPP Question

 

Hey there, got a question on powers in a VPP, basically need to find out if something is possible, how to do it, etc.

 

If a PC take a cosmic VPP, so able to change at will with no roll, and one of the powers is, say, a force field, does the field stay up if it's 0 END Persistant but the pool is changed to a different power?

 

If not, is there a way to have a power go up and stay up even if the pool is changed?

Use Continuing Charges.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: VPP Question

 

This is a bit of a variance. VPPs are sort of the penultimate handwave in HERO - I tend to go the opposite route and have them built as Invariable Power Pools; for example, if you look on http://www.killershrike.com you'll see a whole crapload of various possible magic systems & how they work. For me, I don't go with the Cosmic thing because I'm more of a control freak than that.

 

You can do a few things: Build the pool so it says "All spells require at least one charge" - in which case you can build the Force Field as a set power within the VPP and turn it on and have it go; many magic spells work this way, so it isn't utterly insane. The thing is, to my understanding, you can't add on advantages and such to VPP powers unless there's a specific allowance for that, but I'm not certain. It may be something I remember someone else once saying earlier when I brought up the topic.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: VPP Question

 

The thing is' date=' to my understanding, you can't add on advantages and such to VPP powers unless there's a specific allowance for that, but I'm not certain. It may be something I remember someone else once saying earlier when I brought up the topic.[/quote']

Umm...AFAIK you can take any Advantages you want (that the GM will allow) as long as the Active Point cost of the power does not exceed the Pool cost. So if you have 60 points in your VPP, you can have either a 12d6 EB or a 9d6 EB with Armor Piercing. You just can't add AP to the 12d6EB. Maybe that's what you're thinking of.

 

But overall I agree with you that VPPs work best when they're a little less Variable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP Question

 

EC would work... the END rule on ECs is "must cost END by default" - so you could put a power than normally costs END in an EC and buy it to 0END or with Charges and still be legal.

 

Costs END Only to Activate is also legal in an EC.

 

This is why I despise the "powers must cost END to be in an EC" rule. Powers that cost END by defualt can be bought 0 END, but powers that cost 0 END by default can't be made 0 END. In several cases, whether a power costs END by default is a pretty arbitrary decision. For example, why can I have healing at 0 END in an EC (eg. Regeneration), but I can't have Aid that costs 0 END in the same EC?