Need Some Tactical Advice

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Ok....I want to have my hero group face off against the Ultimates. they've beaten them twice previously, but I think that was mainly due to my own tactical ineptitude. What I need is advice, both general and specific, on how to use the Ultimates. I am using the CKC versions, but with Anklosaur replacing Radium(who really didn't fit in my opinion).

My group, The Crusaders, consists of the following:

 

Bedlam: Team leader....brick...60 STR...21 DEX...4 SPD...20-30 Defs..hardened...full life support...no significant movement powers.

 

Dark Sun: A "jedi" type character..with all the powers associated with that concept...plus..can also use "force lightning". 24 DEX...5 SPD..relatively low defenses.

 

Hound: Shapeshifting martial artist...also possesses keen smell and hearing...and has supernaturally keen claws...25 DEX...5 SPD....good fighter..

 

Frostbite: Ice powers....cold EBs...NNDs...Entangles...plus two area effect attacks..and several Change Environments. Movement of 15" on an ice slide. 22 DEX...5 SPD...

 

Quick Step: Speedster...stats and powers very close to Kinetik from Champions Universe(who doesn't exist in my world). At 26 DEX 7 SPD...and 20" movement..by far the fastest team member.

 

Spiritwalker: The mystic...attack powers have the Activation, Focus(OIF), and Incantations limitation... attacks..include energy blast..entangle....and unusual powers like Mind control and EGO attack..along with a body drain..only on non-sentient.. This character also hase a teleport of 20" with no limitations beyond x2 END. 23 DEX 5 SPD

 

Brimstone: Fire powers...very close to Feurmacher in terms of abilities. 15 " of Flight....flaming damage shield...23 DEX 5 SPD..

 

All the characters attacks are 50-60 active points...

 

Need some advice here...how can The Ultimates beat these guys?(I'd prefer combat advice...not..they attack them in their secret IDs). Eurostar is my other choice for a fight if anyone wants to take a stab at them too.(Eurostar isn't my first choice cause things could get bloody).

 

 

Thanks in advance,

Rob

[TheEmerged]

#1> Add some numbers to the Ultimates. You've got 7 PC's, there are only 6 Ultimates. Some agents (at least 6, probably no more than 10 unless you're especially adept at running combat) might be most apropriate.

 

#1a> The most obvious gap is that the Ultimates lack a mystic or mentalist -- by design. Probably the best bet you've got at your disposal is to add a flexible gadgeteer type -- like Utility, although Utiltiy himself wouldn't join (too much of a loner, wouldn't like teaming up with Thunderblot & Blackstar). This would allow the Ultimates more flexibility.

 

#2> Have you ever played an MMORPG like EverQuest? If so, talk to your friendly neighborhood Enchanter for some ideas.

 

If not, it's time for a quick lesson in the tactics of Crowd Control. Put simply -- try to reduce the number of opponents actively working against your team. The Ultimates have several members capable of Entangles, a good CC choice. You may want to reexamine the way their powers are laid out, and/or add slots for specific tactics.

 

Try to think of things in terms of attacks, not phases -- two half-phases lost (or an entire phase) is equal to one attack. So for Binder's AE Entangle to be "worth" his attack from a crowd-control perspective, he has to cost at least 3 players a half-phase action -- or 1 player a full phase and 1 a half.

 

Similarly, try to come up with ways to cost people actions. This can be as simple as trying to line the enemy up so they get knockbacked into each other (paying attention, Cyclone?).

 

2a> This brings us back to the first point, in a way. You might want to add an illusionist or misdirector to the Ultimates as number 7. The images power can do wonders for tricking the players into wasting precious attack actions and the not-quite-as-precious non-attack half-phase.

 

A classic trick I like to use is to combine Summon and Images on the same character. That way the PC's can't be sure if those suddenly-appearing agents are illusion, or real. Be warned that PC's will find this excrutiatingly annoying...

 

#3> Sometimes the simplest rules are the hardest use. Players hate it when the opponents "gang up", yet we all know that's what a good tactician is going to do.

 

#4> Break out the hoses! One of the most critical mistakes on Binder's writeup in my opinion (except for the "taste" issue regarding most the DEF score of most DOJ-era writeups) is that he doesn't have an Entangle that blocks Sight group. Such a power would *hose* your team's mystic, for example.

 

If I get a chance later tonight I'll run through their writeups and try to come up with more specific tactics.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Brimstone is only there about half the time..so planning for a six member Crusaders is usually good. In any event, I don't really want to add another member to the Ultimates. You'd think with their higher point totals, The Ultimates would have an andvantage even 6 on 7. If I use another member...any pre-written candidates in mind?

 

Yeah, the area entangle is good, but it won't bother the mystic at all. Teleportation bascially says "don't bother with entangles". I'm not going to just arbitrarily give Binder the can't escape with teleportation advantage cause that's a copout to me...and not fair to the players.

[loki]

ok here are some ideas

 

>>Bedlam: Team leader....brick...60 STR...21 DEX...4 SPD...20->>30 Defs..hardened...full life support...no significant >>movement powers.

 

Bricks can be tough because they can soak up so much damage. You may want to try annoying him with someone with serious movement powers or who is very hard to his (high DCV) alot of bricks have PSY. LIMS that make them want a chanange or some other such problem, use that to your advantage and have him chasing around the guy he needs a 17 to be able to hit all combat.

 

>>Dark Sun: A "jedi" type character..with all the powers >>associated with that concept...plus..can also use "force >>lightning". 24 DEX...5 SPD..relatively low defenses.

Hmmm can be tough. Find your match up that has the best OCV so that he can be hit, and take advantage of those low deffences, ALSO AOE attacks will be the best bet on attacking this guy.

 

>>Hound: Shapeshifting martial artist...also possesses keen >>smell and hearing...and has supernaturally keen claws...25 >>DEX...5 SPD....good fighter..

Same approach as on the Jedi guy. Just make sure you have a reasonable chance of hitting, or just attack the hex with AOE attacks.

 

>>Quick Step: Speedster...stats and powers very close to >>Kinetik from Champions Universe(who doesn't exist in my >>world). At 26 DEX 7 SPD...and 20" movement..by far the >>fastest team member.

Grab or entangle, you have to slow this guy down. Once he is stopped focus ALL your attacks on him. He wont be slowed for long so you have to hit them HARD when they are.

 

>>Spiritwalker: The mystic...attack powers have the >>Activation, Focus(OIF), and Incantations limitation... >>attacks..include energy blast..entangle....and unusual >>powers like Mind control and EGO attack..along with a >>body drain..only on non-sentient.. This character also hase >>a teleport of 20" with no limitations beyond x2 END. 23 DEX >>5 SPD

Focus means take it away. Also a flash would work really well on this guy or even some kind of flash to vocal so that he cannot use his incantations.

 

In general i like to use focus on the softies (low deffence characters) first, get them out of the way, then hopefully when you have numbers you can focus on the bricks or other high deff characters.

 

Also if this is their thrid time going after them they could have spent a few villian exp. on something that will be particularly effective against one or more of the heros.

Perhaps a STR drain grenade that they open the combat with to take out the brick leader guy. Just some thoughts. I dont have my book with the villians handy thats why i am speaking in general terms.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I appreciate the replies so far.Generally, my group has a strong offense...which is the major reason for their first two victories...along with my poor grasp of tactics. They also have a fairly wide variety of powers. The group is weak to mentalists, but I'm planning to use the Ultimates...and I'm not planning to add members. My major problem, given past battles, is their DEXs are all relatively good...so it's hard to nail them with area effects and so forth(And they would abort anyways...or I would if I were them).

 

Rob

[loki]

aborting

 

yes they can abbort... but only once AND it cost them their attack. So if they abbort, have another baddie just nail them with a second AE attack.

 

The real key to getting their DCV down is either getting one of them grabbed or in an entangle. That will make them easier to hit, and give you a better chance.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Yes, that is an excellent point. The Ultimates are loaded with area effect attacks, especially with Anklosaur replacing Radium in my version. Slick is faster than any of my PCs, so I guess he'd open the attack, though I can virtually guarantee if he gets close enough to attack, he'll basically be the sacraficial lamb.(My players HATE slick.) LOL

 

Rob

[loki]

delay

 

also dont underestimate the power of a delay. If your guy is faster, he can wait until a character does a move that makes him easier to hit (martial artist who does an off. strike will lower their DCV for example).

 

Also your bricks can use the same trick to go first later on in the combat, if you think it will be a tatical advantage.

 

Keith

[BoloOfEarth]

Making the characters easy targets

 

If the player characters' high DCV is a problem, here are several ideas:

 

First, as somebody pointed out, is using Area Effect attacks, of which the Ultimates have plenty. I would have one Ultimate throw an AE attack at a hero (or heroes) who have already acted that phase, while the other Ultimates hold actions. If the target(s) decide to Dive for Cover, note this text on p. 260:

 

"...regardless of what form of movement the character uses, he is considered to be prone at the end of the Maneuver... He must spend a Half Phase to get to his feet (or get his bearings) and is at 1/2 DCV until he does so."

 

And if the heroes had to Abort their next action to Dive for Cover, that means they don't get to move for a while, all the while sitting there at 1/2 DCV.

 

Voila! Instant, easy-to-hit target. As soon as the target (or targets) dive for cover to avoid the AE attack, the other Ultimates target the sitting duck(s). Warning: this will really only work once, maybe twice if the players are tired or dim, so make it count. This is a good way to start the fight, since all of the Ultimates will be up and can be waiting for the heroes (holding a prior action).

 

Next, use some secondary powers to throw your players for a loop. Few people remember that Blackstar can turn Desolid, too. If he held his action until the hero starts to throw his punch (or better yet, tries a move-through), then turns Desolid... Slick's Change Environment should make it hard for running players to move around, and if they miss their DEX roll, they end up prone (and 1/2 DCV).

 

Third, set the stage. The Ultimates should pick the fight location to take advantage of their strengths. An area with lots of metal railings or a metal floor for Thunderbolt to teleport along. Wide open spaces for Slick to move, and for Anky to shoot plenty of Explosions. High ceilings for Binder and Cyclone to stay out of reach. (It looks like most of your players' characters are ground-bound.)

 

Fourth, villains get Experience too. Don't be afraid to add a skill or power to surprise the players. Clinging for Thunderbolt, or a small gadget pool for Binder, or DCV levels in flight for Cyclone. Don't forget Starbird, either. Some hired goons firing from above can be a real irritant.

 

Finally, note that most of the Ultimates have Teamwork skill. A few coordinated attacks can make a world of difference (especially against the aforementioned sitting ducks).

 

I hope this all helps. (Also, I hope your players don't check out this thread...)

[Agent X]

Re: Making the characters easy targets

 

Originally posted by BoloOfEarth

If the player characters' high DCV is a problem, here are several ideas:

 

First, as somebody pointed out, is using Area Effect attacks, of which the Ultimates have plenty. I would have one Ultimate throw an AE attack at a hero (or heroes) who have already acted that phase, while the other Ultimates hold actions. If the target(s) decide to Dive for Cover, note this text on p. 260:

 

"...regardless of what form of movement the character uses, he is considered to be prone at the end of the Maneuver... He must spend a Half Phase to get to his feet (or get his bearings) and is at 1/2 DCV until he does so."

 

And if the heroes had to Abort their next action to Dive for Cover, that means they don't get to move for a while, all the while sitting there at 1/2 DCV.

 

Voila! Instant, easy-to-hit target. As soon as the target (or targets) dive for cover to avoid the AE attack, the other Ultimates target the sitting duck(s). Warning: this will really only work once, maybe twice if the players are tired or dim, so make it count. This is a good way to start the fight, since all of the Ultimates will be up and can be waiting for the heroes (holding a prior action).

 

Next, use some secondary powers to throw your players for a loop. Few people remember that Blackstar can turn Desolid, too. If he held his action until the hero starts to throw his punch (or better yet, tries a move-through), then turns Desolid... Slick's Change Environment should make it hard for running players to move around, and if they miss their DEX roll, they end up prone (and 1/2 DCV).

 

Third, set the stage. The Ultimates should pick the fight location to take advantage of their strengths. An area with lots of metal railings or a metal floor for Thunderbolt to teleport along. Wide open spaces for Slick to move, and for Anky to shoot plenty of Explosions. High ceilings for Binder and Cyclone to stay out of reach. (It looks like most of your players' characters are ground-bound.)

 

Fourth, villains get Experience too. Don't be afraid to add a skill or power to surprise the players. Clinging for Thunderbolt, or a small gadget pool for Binder, or DCV levels in flight for Cyclone. Don't forget Starbird, either. Some hired goons firing from above can be a real irritant.

 

Finally, note that most of the Ultimates have Teamwork skill. A few coordinated attacks can make a world of difference (especially against the aforementioned sitting ducks).

 

I hope this all helps. (Also, I hope your players don't check out this thread...)

Yep, let the baddies have XP. Wait until you think of the tactics that Blackstar can use once he has N-RAY Vision along with his Density and Desolid.

[BoloOfEarth]

Forgot some things

 

Consider some team-ups. Both Cyclone and Ankylosaur have Radar, so if Anky dropped smoke on the heroes (your listing didn't mention many enhanced senses), they can blast them.

 

If you position Cyclone so that a wall is behind the target, that 10d6 Double Knockback against a blinded target (after Anky's Flashbang) will do double duty. "I hit you... you hit the wall." Check out Knockback Damage on p. 281.

 

Oh, and UP BINDER'S DEFENSES! I mean, really. I've seen VIPER agents with better armor.

 

Forget trying to hurt the brick. Hit him with a Flash, then a good Entangle.

 

Blackstar can Grab and crush somebody with his DI on. With all levels on OCV, he has an effective OCV of 9 with a Grab. (Don't try this on Spiritwalker; teleport beats a grab any day.) Also, his DI puts him at 36 PD/ED. Just make sure the floor can support him in this form. Or he could throw the grabbed character at another character (like Brimstone with that Damage Shield) to hurt two at once.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Now I know why I come to the boards for things like this. Great suggestions by all. I'm a little rusty on Flash Attacks...are they just OCV vs. DCV attacks? The scenario I have in mind will be outdoors in a public place.(The Ultimates really just want a win to save their poor reputations.)

[BoloOfEarth]

Flash

 

It depends. If Binder had a Flash attack (defined as a blob of glue in the target's face), it would be his OCV versus the target's DCV. Ankylosaur's Flashbang (sight and hearing) is an Explosion, so it is targeted on a hex.

 

The effects rolled are the number of phases the target is blinded (minus their Flash Defense, if any). Look at p. 226-227 for details on Flash effects. Basically, it all depends on (1) whether they have targeting senses that aren't affected, and (2) whether they make a non-targeting PER roll. In general, the target is 1/2 OCV if they don't have a usable targeting sense, and either 0 DCV, 1/2 DCV, -1 DCV, or full DCV depending on the circumstances and PER roll.

[BoloOfEarth]

Setting the Scene

 

A public place probably means the public will be around. Consider that Binder has Demolitions skill (which means he should be able to handle normal explosives). Imagine if he glued up a bunch of people with a bomb on a timer stuck in there too...

 

Things like that give the players something else to deal with in addition to the villains. Or it can be a trap -- a psychotropic gas bomb disguised as normal explosives, say. Or even a complete red herring to waste the heroes' time.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Now, Slick's Entangles are the bought with the " Takes No Damage From Outside Attacks" advantage. What does one use to break out of those anyways? I know you can use your natural STR, but could an energy projector use their natural power blasts...even though the special effects is paralysis(lack of kinetic energy)?

 

Rob

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

I'd give advice, but I have a problem: I don't have any Champions supplements, so I know neither the Ultimates' names nor their abilities. If someone can make a quick list, then I can probably plot out an entire battle plan for you...