Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

[Robyn]

I worked this up off the top of my head several weeks ago, idly trying to stat out something I had seen on an anime show.

 

Whenever a character Blocks an attack delivered with greater brute force (Strength), their Block carries the Side Effect of Knockback or an automatic 1d6 for every 10 Active Points in the power. (I had a somewhat confused understanding of the rules when I decided this. Thankfully, this still works out, and rather conveniently, to 10 STR.)

 

A skill/stat roll (Acrobatics, or DEX) decides the difference: a blind roll (not knowing how much stronger the attacker is, or deciding to roll blindly anyway) will, for every point it is made by (use the defender's unmodified skill), allow the character to take 1d6 and turn it into an inch of Knockback - but if there is any Knockback left over, it automatically becomes Knockdown as well, leaving the character prone before inertia carries them the rest of the Knockback distance (inflicting the leftover damage).

 

Alternately, the character may accept a penalty to their roll equal to one point for every 10 points of Strength the attacker has in excess of their own (this must be decided before rolling). The outcome is then all or nothing - the character stands their ground and tries to harmlessly deflect the force of the blow, success results in no Knockback and no damage, but failure results in full damage (and possibly Knockback, but only as would normally result from a normal attack of equal strength).

 

This doesn't address the ease of Blocking weaker attackers than yourself, but a similar "Side Effect" add-on should take care of that. When attacking, if I knew that letting my opponent get in a "hard block" (pitting their strength directly against mine) would give away the advantage, I would contrive my attacks so as to never do this. The effect seems more appropriate for an existing maneveur; when the defender is deliberately Blocking in such a way as to enable their own Strength to meet the attacker's head-on, this can be the SFX for a Defensive Disarm, which already compares the attacker's and defender's strength.

 

To preserve that anime feel, though, a successful Block roll can then reduce damage (before any other modifiers are applied) by 1d6 for every 10 Active Points in the Strength (just call it every 10 STR), with a limit of 10 AP (10 STR) for every point the Block roll was made by. The mechanics reflect reality by limiting the amount of Strength one can use defensively to how skillfully one executed their Block. As for the anime feel, envision two characters leaping at each other with swords swinging or charging with fists raised; the blades clash, the fists meet, energy splays outward, nearby objects explode, and the two characters become absolutely immobile, their two attacks having canceled each other out.

 

This second part, too, is just off the top of my head. But that's a good thing, IMO; it keeps the build simple, streamlined.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

How do Martial Arts Damage Classes and Hand Attacks work into this? What about Killing Attacks? Is this roughly taking the physical force of the blow and turning it into momentum from knockback to gracefully do a backflip out of it like I have seen in a lot of anime?

 

Interesting ideas. Keep them coming.

[Robyn]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

How do Martial Arts Damage Classes and Hand Attacks work into this?

 

I don't even understand those, much less have I accounted for them

 

What about Killing Attacks?

 

I admit, I thought of those when I was doing the writeup, but I omitted it because I couldn't think of a graceful solution for the difference in cost/damage for a Killing Attack.

 

Is this roughly taking the physical force of the blow and turning it into momentum from knockback to gracefully do a backflip out of it like I have seen in a lot of anime?

 

More like skidding along the ground for a hundred feet, leaning forward and digging one's fingers into the ground to slow themselves. Sometimes the force with which they were hurled backward is still too much, and they end up windmilling the arms to stay balanced.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

I have seen a lot of Kung Fu like what you are saying but I have also seen, especially with graceful female Kung Fu anime chicks, flying across the room from a block, only to land and then get right back into stance. This rule seems to fit both Genres pretty well. Both the Kung Fu aspect and the Anime aspect.

[OddHat]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

Gracefully bouncing to your feet after KB is an application of the Breakfall skill.

 

Officially, you take no KB when you block, even if your opponent has superhuman STR. The "dramatic sense" rule however allows for plenty of freedom for GMs to do as they like, from -2 to the Block up to "You just can't block him".

 

For an Anime or Wuxia inspired game, the above rule looks good.

 

In martial arts heavy games I often define Super Blocks as a Self Only Force Wall. It makes blocking a very wide range of attack types easier to figure, reduces the number of rolls needed in combat, and allows a simple mechanic for blocks to be broken through without players feeling picked on.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

How do Martial Arts Damage Classes and Hand Attacks work into this?

 

I think this one is important. If only raw STR counts, the Brick gains an advantage over the martial artist. This variant already disadvantages the Martial Artist in that getting his DCV halved because he's been knocked back is far more devestating for a character who relies primarily on DCV for protection than it is for a character who relies more on high defenses.

 

Do added MA DC's reduce this effect for characters who have Martial Block, or is skill no part of the puzzle?

 

Does this mean an 8 STR character (say the Aged Master of his art) will get knocked back when a street punk, albeit a very strong one, tries to punch him with his staggering 18 STR? That doesn't seem consistent with the genre.

 

We already have a mechanic for reducing damage at the cost of increased knockback, being the Roll with the Punch maneuver. Do we really need to convert Block into another such maneuver?

 

If we change Block in this fashion, should Missile Deflection undergo a similar change? Ranged attacks generally also exert pressure in the game.

 

OVERALL: I don't see this approach as having any less problems than RKane's own proposals for changing Block. The questions above seem to indicate this is not as straightforward as the title would imply. I'm not sure what constitutes "Hero-compatible" - making it fall inside the Hero rules seems to suffice.

[Robyn]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

We already have a mechanic for reducing damage at the cost of increased knockback' date=' being the Roll with the Punch maneuver. Do we really need to convert Block into another such maneuver?[/quote']

 

The house rules I proposed don't change Block at all. This is how they are "HERO-compatible"; instead of reworking an existing maneveur from the ground up, they tack on an extra Side Effect, otherwise leaving the moves be. They don't change the rules and effectively make it another game; they use the existing rules and introduce additional factors to encourage certain genre conventions. The problems may be just as numerous, but they will be more straightforward to resolve - I posted this as an example of how implementation proposals can be short and (relatively) simple, hoping that later posts on certain math-filled threads would later become easier to read

 

I definitely agree that the STR/MA incongruency needs fixing, though. Still, like I said, all of this was just off the top of my head, no real thought put into it

 

Rolling with a punch halves damage and reduces Knockback by 1d6. This move works differently, and I don't want to change the "roll with punch" maneveur either.

[CBikle]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

How and why are the block rules such a hot topic all of a sudden ?

[OddHat]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

How and why are the block rules such a hot topic all of a sudden ?

 

I'm supposed to be working. Therefore, I procrastinate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

Rolling with a punch halves damage and reduces Knockback by 1d6. This move works differently' date=' and I don't want to change the "roll with punch" maneveur either.[/quote']

 

It increases Kncokback by 1d6 - it removes 1d6 from the roll subtracted from BOD rolled when determining Knockback.

[Robyn]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

It increases Kncokback by 1d6 - it removes 1d6 from the roll subtracted from BOD rolled when determining Knockback.

 

That was my second read, to be honest. For some unfathomable reason I thought this didn't make much more sense than reducing Knockback to 1d6 (my initial impresson ), so I read it again, got a third idea, and decided to heck with the silly Knockback thing anyway, halving the damage was enough to establish a difference.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

There's no point in adding Knockdown to Knockback. Knockback leaves you prone already.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

Well, how about just making it a House Rule in the groundrules of your campaign, that a successful Block does not in itself negate Knockback? You would have to brace against the attack (which would automatically bring the STR of the attacker into the equation), or buy Knockback Resistance. Then you can calculate Knockback from any attack normally, regardless of whether it's Normal or Killing Damage, or from a Martial Maneuver. Speaking of Martial Maneuvers, you could rule that the extra STR from certain maneuvers, such as those with the Root element, would also count against resisting this Knockback.

 

If you only want this effect for some characters in your campaign, you could give those characters a Physical Limitation, "Block Doesn't Negate Knockback." Alternatively, if only certain attacks have this result, buy "Does Knockback" for them even if they already do Knockback - that would account for the added utility of that attack.

[Robyn]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

There's no point in adding Knockdown to Knockback. Knockback leaves you prone already.

 

I'd say, then, that "automatically" means you cannot use Breakfall to "bounce gracefully back to your feet" as Oddhat described above.

 

Well' date=' how about just making it a House Rule in the groundrules of your campaign, that a successful Block does not in itself negate Knockback? You would have to brace against the attack (which would automatically bring the STR of the attacker into the equation), or buy Knockback Resistance.[/quote']

 

This is a very interesting approach. To reflect the possibility of damage as well (if they have you backed up against the edge of a cliff and you don't want to back up, or if you're fighting in a circle and being knocked out of bounds would disqualify you), I could rule that the person would need to either take all the Knockback as a forced movement, or stand their ground and take 1d6 damage for any leftover Knockback.

 

I would prefer a bit more granularity in it, though (ideally* the character could choose to "soak" up to the limit of their defenses, and take the rest as Knockback instead of all translating into damage), so at the very least I would permit MA skill levels to resist Knockback as well as STR when bracing against the impact; defensive skill levels naturally, offensive skill levels if they blocked by attacking the attack (not "deflecting" it away).

 

If the damage from bracing and taking it then resulted in Knockback, though, they would be flung away by the impact as normal.

 

__________________

*The rules for Brace in 4th Edition are like the rules for Set; they improve missile accuracy when aiming. I couldn't check the rules for this to see if it already works like that.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

You could also have it that the Blocker controls the direction of the Knockback within reason with a successful roll. Could mean the difference between bouncing off a wall or falling into a fiery pit of death. *smile*

[Robyn]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

You could also have it that the Blocker controls the direction of the Knockback within reason with a successful roll.

 

Getting too complicated, then.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

You already made a roll to take the Knockback, might as well use some of the success to control the direction if it will save a character.

[Robyn]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

You already made a roll to take the Knockback' date=' might as well use some of the success to control the direction if it will save a character.[/quote']

 

No roll would be required to accept Knockback; if the character were trying to absorb it, the damage would be rolled as if they had been thrown into a wall right away (since, essentially, they are bracing themselves upon the ground and "anchoring" themselves to that spot, not controlling the direction of the Knockback but effectively enabling the ground to intercept their movement before they go anywhere).

[Rkane_1]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

A skill/stat roll (Acrobatics' date=' or DEX) decides the difference: a blind roll (not knowing how much stronger the attacker is, or deciding to roll blindly anyway) will, for every point it is made by (use the defender's unmodified skill), allow the character to take 1d6 and turn it into an inch of Knockback - but if there is any Knockback left over, it automatically becomes Knock[b']down[/b] as well, leaving the character prone before inertia carries them the rest of the Knockback distance (inflicting the leftover damage).

 

I thought you made this roll to decide whether or not the Knockback would be absorbed or not. If the character can take it AND attempt to control their direction (only if needed by the character foe self-preservation) I don't see it as an issue but YMMV.

[Frenchman]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

The KB idea is a good one, I'd rep you if I could, LL.

 

I'd say a block roll that succeeds by 2 or more allows you to choose which direction you go.

 

How about the blocking character gets 1/2 their STR DCs as KBR? So when Jo Normal with 10 STR blocks a 20 STR biker's punch, he has 1" of KBR vs. the potential KB from the hit, but the hit won't likely do KB anyways. A 25 STR character would have 3" (lets round up), meaning a 60 STR brick could expect to do 3" of KB against him.

This would only have much effect in cases where there is an extreme difference in STR (+50% or more).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

No roll would be required to accept Knockback; if the character were trying to absorb it' date=' the [i']damage[/i] would be rolled as if they had been thrown into a wall right away (since, essentially, they are bracing themselves upon the ground and "anchoring" themselves to that spot, not controlling the direction of the Knockback but effectively enabling the ground to intercept their movement before they go anywhere).

 

Actually, if we were to use RKane's approach that a successful Block allows the character to direct the knockback, this would be the choice of directing it downwards.

 

Given the object is to achieve greater realism, as perceived in this instance as "a strong hit still forces you back, even though you Blocked it", allowing the character to grow roots and take damage instead of being knocked back 10" seems inconsistent with the goal.

[Robyn]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

I thought you made this roll to decide whether or not the Knockback would be absorbed or not. If the character can take it AND attempt to control their direction (only if needed by the character foe self-preservation) I don't see it as an issue but YMMV.

 

Actually' date=' if we were to use RKane's approach that a successful Block allows the character to direct the knockback, this would be the choice of directing it downwards.[/quote']

 

This response from Hugh essentially sums up my confusion over the matter. From the context that first time you said it, I thought you were saying the roll to Block would determine direction, and forgot that I was using an Acrobatics roll to decide how much Knockback the defender could absorb.

 

You are correct that the Acrobatics roll would allow you the opportunity to "absorb" the Knockback (specifically, the Knockback that comes as a Side Effect of succeeding in your Block roll) . . . hold on. Example time.

 

A brick with 60 Strength throws a 20d6 HA against your character. Normally, you would take 20d6. But you decide to Block, or try to anyway.

 

1. If you fail, you take 20d6 (assume 8d6 of HA damage levels), and possibly Knockback.
   
2. If you succeed, you take 6d6 as a Side Effect of meeting their raw Strength with your own.

You then make an Acrobatics roll to determine what happens. Assuming you have a mere 10 Strength yourself, you have two choices:

 

1. Roll your Acrobatics at ([60-10] / 10) a 5-point penalty to "deflect" the 6d6 damage/Knockback; this is an all-or-nothing proposition.
   
2. Roll your Acrobatics normally; for every point you make it by, take 1d6 of that damage as an inch of Knockback instead. If you make the roll by 6 or more, you take 6 inches of Knockback (even if you made the roll by more). If you make the roll by less than 6 (for example, by 3), you take 3 inches of Knockback before falling over, then take the remaining 3d6 damage from tumbling along the ground, and are unable to make a Breakfall roll to immediately bounce back to your feet.

However, there is one thing a successful Block roll could have done, and that was covered in the last part of my post; it reduces the damage by 1d6 for every 10 points of Strength you have, if you try to meet their attack head-on. But this is limited by the amount you make your Block roll by. Since your Strength is only 10, though, you only need to worry about making it by a point. I would then want to rule out #1 as an option, though; you can't "meet their blow head-on with all your Strength" and also "deflect" it.

 

I'm still concerned about an implementation that takes into account Martial Artist skills, though, as Hugh asked about.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

call me silly but aren't you forgetting one teensy weensy detail about the mechanics of the standard Block?

 

An unsuccessful Block does NOT automatically mean that the Attack hits. How can it since the Attack roll hasn't been made yet?

 

Every suggestion I've seen tying an 'interposing' mechanic to the HERO Block seems to be just attaching some type of penalty to the maneuver's success.

 

What happens if the attacker has a Damage Shield?

 

According to the default Damage Shield rules the attacker must score a successful grab for the Damage Shield to do damage. Punches would only affect a default Block with sfx defined as physical contact if the Damage Shield was purchased with an additional +1/4 Advantage for that purpose.

 

However, the Block maneuver variant suggested here and elsewhere hardcoded as physical force vs. force seems to negate the need for such an advantage.

 

Seems like another attempt at effect and sfx linkage.

 

for more on this see this post:

 

Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46189

[incrdbil]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

[*]If you fail, you take 20d6 (assume 8d6 of HA damage levels), and possibly Knockback.

[*]If you succeed, you take 6d6 as a Side Effect of meeting their raw Strength with your own.

You then make an Acrobatics roll to determine what happens. Assuming you have a mere 10 Strength yourself, you have two choices:

 

This seems to assume a block is always you physically contacting the attacker with a part of your body. What if the block is simply defined as a suddent twist to the side, a feint, or some other move that doesn't involve you actually touching them? What if your block is a deceptive type move that, if it works leaves you in a superior position, and, if it fails, means the enemy strikes you?

 

And most of all, how do you make the inferior hard block attractive enough so that everyone just doesn't go for a 'soft block'?

 

Seeing as the abort and lose a move block, under these rules, can still put you at a form of disadvantage when it works, whats to encourage the use of a hard block as opposed to a dodge?

 

You'ld have to rework most of the defensive manuevers, or make the hard block much cheaper--and with the already small amount of block costs, you really wont lure many players in with a hard block rule like that.

[Edsel]

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

 

This seems to assume a block is always you physically contacting the attacker with a part of your body. What if the block is simply defined as a suddent twist to the side' date=' a feint, or some other move that doesn't involve you actually touching them? What if your block is a deceptive type move that, if it works leaves you in a superior position, and, if it fails, means the enemy strikes you?[/quote']

Pretty much the same point I tried to make in another thread. "Block" is just the name of a maneuver. The special effect could be that the blocker side-steps, ducks or otherwise dodges in such a way that he is put in a good position to counter-attack. Just as a "Martial Strike" could actually represent a punch, kick, elbow strike, etc. The "Block" does not necessarily mean that the defender is going to intercept or deflect the incomming attack.