The building blocks of the universe.

[Alibear]

So I'm trying to help out a player design a character, normally no problem but the concept is a bit more complex than normal.

 

The idea is that the universe and everything in it has a code or building blocks, a kind of ÃœberDNA. If you can read this ÃœberDNA you can see lots and lots of information about just about everything.

 

The player sees this as a massive analyze...

 

Also, if you can understand the building blocks of the universe you can also perhaps alter them...

 

 

 

This seems a bit of a VPP situation to me. Any thoughts or ideas:confused:

[Frenchman]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

The altering of the building blocks of the universe thingy is definitly a VPP. I'd get 'im a large one of the cosmic variety - unless he needs special training or knowledge (a skill) to use/change the information he sees.

I'd buy the reading of the ÃœberDNA as a Detect of 3 Large Groups of things (Matter, Energy, & Everything Else) with analyze & discriminatory. Add other modifiers to taste.

[Rkane_1]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

Hmmmm....I am thinking a lot of points. How many does he start with? By the time he finishes making his pool, he may not havemany points left.

[Lucius]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

His VPP may also have massive side effects. Ask any programmer what happens when you go changing the code and find out you didn't understand it as well as you THOUGHT you did.

 

To paraphrase one of Diana Wynn Jones' characters: "So you cast a spell to make everything he said become literally true? Did you think what might happen if he chanced to say something stupid like, say, two plus two equals five? That would have changed everything in your universe that has to do with numbers, anything that can be counted. That one spell could have destroyed your universe!"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary ponders mis-spellings

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

So I'm trying to help out a player design a character, normally no problem but the concept is a bit more complex than normal.

 

The idea is that the universe and everything in it has a code or building blocks, a kind of ÃœberDNA. If you can read this ÃœberDNA you can see lots and lots of information about just about everything.

 

The player sees this as a massive analyze...

 

Also, if you can understand the building blocks of the universe you can also perhaps alter them...

 

 

 

This seems a bit of a VPP situation to me. Any thoughts or ideas:confused:

 

Yeah - I think that the concept is a good SFX for powers but the player needs to understand that effects cost points.

 

I think that the analyse doesn't need to be that massive - all it needs to do is indicate exactly what needs to be changed and the power requirements of that.

 

I can see the player asking about the 2+2=5 thing and being told that they would need a Universe Scale Transform that would probably come in at around 1 million active points giving him a -100,000 on his skill roll.

 

The universe might decide to XDM him to an alternate self where 2+2=5 rather than allow itself to be so drastically altered.

 

I think that the character would be a pain in the patootie to GM as you'd be continually wrangling about what the effect actually was etc. I would be inclined to tell the player that he can have a cosmic power pool and his concept is good enough to justify that but he could only have the powers he could afford in there - all the changes that he is able to force on the universe. I would be tempted to give him another that would be subject to a skill roll and failure would mean severe backlash. He could access the power at need but always with the thought that it could recoil and kill him (more apt for iron age than four colour).

 

Doc

[bigdamnhero]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

Also' date=' if you can understand the building blocks of the universe you can also perhaps alter them...[/quote']

Depending on how the player intends to use it, this almost sounds more like a plain ol' Transform to me. Even with the +1 Target Into Anything Adv, it's still likely to be cheaper (and easier to use) than the VPP route. Add in Requires Analyze: UberDNA Roll, with Extreme Side Effects (GM's discretion) on failure to represent the "you read it wrong!" problem.

[gojira]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

So I'm trying to help out a player design a character, normally no problem but the concept is a bit more complex than normal.

 

The idea is that the universe and everything in it has a code or building blocks, a kind of ÃœberDNA. If you can read this ÃœberDNA you can see lots and lots of information about just about everything.

 

The player sees this as a massive analyze...

 

Also, if you can understand the building blocks of the universe you can also perhaps alter them...

 

 

 

This seems a bit of a VPP situation to me. Any thoughts or ideas:confused:

 

 

I'm with Doc here. I think you should reason from effect. What effect does understanding this univeral DNA have?

 

Can the player character cause damage with it? Energy Blast

 

Can the player move through wormholes in the space-time continum? Teleport

 

Can the bent light around himself or cause his molecules to not reflect light? Invisibility

 

 

Etc. You and your player are trying to reason from mechanic. Don't worry about why or how, just worry about the effect.

 

If the effect is "my character can do anything," then you don't have enough points to stat that out.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

As I'm reading the power, it's basically wide-spread Reality Alteration with virtually no limitations beyond the power-bearer's ability to comprehend what he's doing (in theory, if he doesn't understand, say, molecular structures, he can't rearrange them because he doesn't know where to put the atoms to make what he wants ... but he could perhaps, instinctively from the power, know how to reassemble things he doesn't actually understand).

 

Definite VPP material, possibly with a RSR: Reality Manipulation and (if appropriate), a skill check relating to whatever it is he's trying to do (If he's trying to turn a rock into a car, he needs some KSs, PSs, or SSs relating to mechanical design).

[digital_lorax]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

There is a fantasy novel by Sharon Green called "The Far Side of Forever".

In it the magicians did their thing by seeing things (atoms? this uberdna you refer to) and then describing them you can do magic (the alter you mention above).

 

So sure, I once played a character based onthis concept. I had a vpp for enhanced senses only, and then a multipower with my various powers with that description as my special effects.

 

Incantations were the descriptions and gestures were shorthand, thus the phrase " a gesture is worth a thousand words".

 

There was also 'black' magic. Which wasn't inherently evil, just very dangerous and hard to explain from the book (it's been awhile since I've read it). It was when you were trying to describe things that didn't 'exist' or concepts. Like trying to describe the square root of -1 version in that language, (okay okay you can you geometric interpretation, but that's more difficult, so, see, more difficult.)

[Jaxom]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

Hrmmm, why can't I seem to find a little stop-sign icon to include here? We have a caution icon, we need a stop-sign icon (so I can paste it in here 300 times).

 

So here's the short-hand. Run screaming. Outlaw the generic form of the power. Your player is not going to be happy with anything that can be implemented within the limits of a Superhero campaign. He or she will eventually determine that it is possible to simply eliminate someone's uberDNA and that is essentially a limitless power that cannot be described in points, much less within the limits of an 80 or 90 point AP cap.

 

In more detail...

 

Don't get me wrong... The power defined makes a great backstory. It also empowers essentially anything that the player (or you) can possibly imagine. The problem is that when you start manipulating the underlying rules of the universe you find youself set up for a character like Dark Phoenix or Dr. Manhattan. Someone who is bored with the universe and everything in it. Not exactly the best gaming experience and also a GMs worst nightmare.

 

Find a nice way to tell the player that they need to pick some specific power stunts and that those are really the only tricks that they have mastered for manipulating uberDNA at this point. Also point out that it is going to be a slow process learning other manipulations because of the associated cost. Maybe allow variable advantages or the like...

 

Otherwise be prepared the first time your player says, "I turn off his cellular metabolism," and expect your 750 point archvillain to fall down. Or maybe he'll take a code against killing and it'll just be, "I neutralize all the sodium ions in his body below the neck," and expects you to render him paralized because he cannot transmit electical signals (and hence neural impulses).

 

Trust me on this one. I speak from experience. For obvious reasons I refuse to post The Alchemist (who had the ability to re-arrange sub-atomic particles into new atoms at his whim).

[Alibear]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

Aye, I well see the inherent problems with a cosmic VPP. I've played the Hero System for nearly 20 years and don't trust myself to make 'off the cuff powers' and be 100% sure I haven't broken any rules.

 

The other problem, is of course, that the player is a sneaky bugger and would almost certainly come up with ways to kick the **** out of the boundaries of the scenario I designed.

 

Another thing he wanted to know with his analyze is the strengths weaknesses of villains he meets. e.g. he meets Powered Armour Boy and decides to set his analyze to work on him....Is that find weakness or more detailed like knowledge of vulnerabilities, physical limitations and what have you? (obviously he would ned to buy Find Weakness if he wanted it)

 

So I'm ready to allow a Big MP with one slot a Variable SFX, one as a variable advantage and whatever else he wants to shove in there.

 

I'll ask him if he fancies an activation roll and major side effects...Hey you just broke the unniverse!

 

He really is just a mathematical magician, I never thouht of that 'til reading the replies.

 

I might write up a version and post it if anyone is intereted?

 

Thanks a bunch for your input. You guys are the best vertual geeks around.

 

Al

[Jaxom]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

So I'm ready to allow a Big MP with one slot a Variable SFX, one as a variable advantage and whatever else he wants to shove in there.

 

Ok, let's run this down right quick... Much as I hate the idea behind the build, let's say you make the main effect a Transform... Give him a big Find Weakness, maybe a mind-reading effect and a couple of forms for the "attack" Transform power.

 

Assume that you are playing Standard Supers so you've got an 80-point AP limit (which is the only hope you have of reining this character in)... Say he's relatively fast at SPD 6...

 

The best he can do with the Transform (with the variable advantage and variable SFX) is probably going to be 2d6. Maybe 4d6 at the outside. Are you going to be the on that tells him it is a painstakingly long process to actually Transform anyone and that the target is going to know what is going on the whole time? I certainly hesitate to think what happens the first time he tries to use it on a guy with a gun... Even with a mundane target with SPD of 2 he's going to find himself under fire before he can turn the poor sod into a toad.

 

This character is designed to be a god, not a superhero. Ask him if the character has any kind of an Achilles' Heel. Is there any way that he can imagine this character failing? If the answer is no then someone is going to be very unhappy with the gaming experience, be it the player, his fellow players or the GM. I just think you're playing with dynamite here and should be avoiding it like the plague.

 

By comparison, as an exercise... Try building Magneto as defined/reflected in the movies and comics. It's probably one massive EC - Magnetic Powers and it includes all the fun stuff like Flight, RKA(NND), Telekinesis, Force Wall, Energy Blast, Tunnelling... I don't think I can do it justice for less than 450 points and probably not even then. Then realize that the image your player has for this character probably swats Magneto like a bug.

 

I mean, Magneto can "throw" a whole bridge with TK... That means his effective TK is something like 60-80 STR with advantages. Probably 120 APs minimum... Based on your first post here, if you threw Magneto at this character I would fully expect him to say, "I tailor his DNA to make him a mundane and turn off all his powers." Seems to me the most obvious (if not very subtle) application of his powers... So if that TK really is indicative of the size of the proposed EC, then your player is going to expect to make a 1-phase attack which is essentially "Drain EC (any SFX)" and get an average result of 120 points. Assume you only call "any SFX" a +1 Advantage (which is low), at standard effect that is a whopping 40d6 Drain with an AP cost of 800 points.

 

Where the heck is that stop-sign icon?

[bigdamnhero]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

The other problem' date=' is of course, that the player is a sneaky bugger and would almost certainly come up with ways to kick the **** out of the boundaries of the scenario I designed.[/quote']

Hmm... adding that piece of info to the puzzle, I have to say I'm afraid Jaxom may be right. While I still think it's a neat idea in theory, it sounds like this guy is going for the uber-munchkin I Can Do Anything! build. Which means either he's going to be greatly frustrated, or you are. (Not to mention the other players) Time for a reality check with the player.

 

You guys are the best vertual geeks around.

Should I be embarassed by that? Or by the fact that I actually took it as a compliment?

 

By comparison, as an exercise... Try building Magneto as defined/reflected in the movies and comics.

...

I don't think I can do it justice for less than 450 points and probably not even then. Then realize that the image your player has for this character probably swats Magneto like a bug.

Yeah, Gravitar's the closest thing in the CU, and she's what, 1000 points? Fine for a master villain, but not a PC.

 

Maybe we're being over-alarmist here. If he's thought up some clever ways to use this sfx to drive a variety of different powers, that's one thing. But if he just plans on re-writing everyone's DNA... I'd be worried.

[gojira]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

... While I still think it's a neat idea in theory' date=' it sounds like this guy is going for the uber-munchkin [b']I Can Do Anything![/b] build. ...Maybe we're being over-alarmist here. ... But if he just plans on re-writing everyone's DNA... I'd be worried.

 

Uh, ditto. Hope it all works out, but the whole idea seems iffy.

[Jaxom]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

Hmm... adding that piece of info to the puzzle' date=' I have to say I'm afraid Jaxom may be right. While I still think it's a neat idea [i']in theory[/i], it sounds like this guy is going for the uber-munchkin I Can Do Anything! build. Which means either he's going to be greatly frustrated, or you are. (Not to mention the other players) Time for a reality check with the player.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong. I *love* the concept. But the problem is that if he's going where I think he is, then he's going to want an unbounded character and that will cause everyone problems. On the other hand, if he's willing to accept limitations on what actual applications he's mastered, then he's fine.

 

Some really straight forward effects that could be purchased with this as the SFX that come to mind include...

 

RKA(NND) - yes, this needs warning signs, but if I can manipulate their uberDNA at will I can just break down molecular cohesion

Armor - Make my clothing temporarily rigid

Missile Deflection - Missile? What missile?

 

 

The problem is making sure that everyone understand that purchasing Missile Deflection as the ability to "unwrite" a projectile out of the universe does not provide the ability to unwrite your neighbors as well.

[David Blue]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

The idea is that the universe and everything in it has a code or building blocks' date=' a kind of ÃœberDNA. If you can read this ÃœberDNA you can see lots and lots of information about just about everything.[/quote']Is that how you want the universe to work? For it to be wholly reducible to fancy Leggo?

 

If that's what you want, OK.

 

This is also a decision that there can be nothing wholly strange, truly inexplicable. Once you sell a player a universal demystifier, for (I assume) a lot of points, you are more or less honor bound to stick to that.

 

I think the real world is strange, and superhero universes are much stranger. I don't think a superhero universe should reduce wholly to fancy Leggo, and I reserve the right from time to time to introduce something wholly strange, something that does not play by the rules that you do.

 

I think there should be horror, or the potential for it, feeding on things that are ultimately un-knowable; and there should also be hope, or the potential for it, founded ultimately on impenetrably mystery. I would not agree to veto in advance any future player character concept founded on such things. ("Sorry, may-be-an-angel man, all thing are whole explicable to the Great Analyzer: there are no mysteries in this campaign any more. Try again with a new concept that has to be an open book to him.")

 

Also, I reserve the right to hand wave my way out of difficulties if needed.

 

And always I reserve the right to hold back, likely forever information such as the true natures of those who sit in shadow above the gods of Asgard, and where does Odin's mind wanders in his Odin-sleep, and just how much Jean and how much Dark Phoenix were we looking at in some recent confrontation? Maybe the character and the player should be in doubt about these things, maybe there should be no answer.

 

I won't sell you a power that presupposes that there are final, definite, mechanistic answers to everything, let alone that the player is entitled to analyse them all right out.

 

You have a tricky player who if given an inch may take a mile. They want a God power. And they want you to start by defining the mystery out of your universe.

 

The only real mystery left would be one owned by the player, not you: just how much mileage can he get out of his God power?

 

Is this looking good to you?

 

If so, go ahead.

[stmichaeldet]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

You have a tricky player who if given an inch may take a mile. They want a God power. And they want you to start by defining the mystery out of your universe.

 

Excellent, excellent point. Not to mention, a very good angle for reining Godboy in.

[Alibear]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

Hmm...

 

 

I'm not seeing this as anything other than a different special effect for a mystic type character.

 

So, he knows how the universe was built, what's to say he knows who built it?

So, he saw the tools The Builder used to create the universe, can he wield them?

So, he can alter bits and pieces in the universe but he only has 350 points and Dr. Derstroyer is still going to squish him like a bug no matter that he doesn't understand the universe at the same level.

 

btw. I don't see this a game breaking power, more of a background story with a difference.

 

Ah well, only time will tell. Thanks for the thoughts.

[CBikle]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

Personally, I think the player is casting too wide a net and I agree with the comments made by Lucius and David Blue.

 

On a more practical note, the character sounds like it'd be a complex build, which may not be ideal for someone new to the system (especially since this

sounds like a big VPP); one of you is going to be doing a lot of bookkeeping/ruleschecking (at least for major stuff).

 

I'm assuming the player is new to the system, because, otherwise, they'd be building this character instead of you.

 

Just out of curiosity, I'm picking up a "He doesn't really see himself as a superhero and he doesn't wear a costume" vibe from this character. Am I right about this ?

[prestidigitator]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

Just the SFX of normal powers? Sure! Why not?

 

(Cosmic-type VPPs can become difficult to deal with, though. I had a, "mentalist," with one in a rotating-GM game a number of years ago, and I sort of had to work hard at not simply switching the pool to solve every little problem we ran into outside of combat. That wouldn't have been fair to the other players.)

[Alibear]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

Aye, upon reflection the cosmic VPP is a no-no.

 

To cbickle etc.: I don't see the problem with the power; would you allow a magician in your campaign? He is just a magician who speaks a different magical language than normal magic users.

[David Blue]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

Aye, upon reflection the cosmic VPP is a no-no.

 

To cbickle etc.: I don't see the problem with the power; would you allow a magician in your campaign? He is just a magician who speaks a different magical language than normal magic users.

Sure.

 

And when I said, if this is how you want it to work, go ahead, I meant it. Since you're comfortable with the power you're allowing, there's no problem.

[Jaxom]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

From your initial post:

 

Also, if you can understand the building blocks of the universe you can also perhaps alter them...

 

This is where things get dicey.

 

 

Like everyone else, I agree that if you are comfortable with what you help him build, then go for it. Just make sure that before the first session he understands the boundaries on what you help him build.

 

If this is just "see and understand" then I could see a multipower or even an EC built around powers like Find Weakness and Senses (and yes, I know you aren't suppose to do that but since we're already talking strange things and the GM is the one building the character you could grant the exception on the spot).

 

When you start getting to "maybe you can change things" then you risk the pandora's box. Again, as SFX this is great. The risk is that the player asks "Well, can I use this to 'unmake' projectiles being fired at me?" and so you build Missile Deflection, SFX Projectile vanishes. Then he says, "I want to make all the bullets in his gun disappear." Hrmmm, that's not missile deflection but it is the same special effect... "Now I want to start removing bullet-sized chunks of *him*, starting with the primary motor centers of his brain." EEEEEP!

 

So as SFX go, this is great but make sure that the player understands that this is a power and the rules of the power apply regardless of what the SFX could be used to do. If you and he agree that this character works, great! If you don't agree, then find common ground before you chase this too much.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

You know the old 'with great power comes great responsibility' line?

 

Well, in Champions, with great power comes big-*** Hunteds.

 

Okay, so here's a guy who can rewrite reality. Well, first and foremost, he has to do it on 350 points. He might be able to rearrange stuff, but he still has limits because of how much energy he can channel though his body at once, his limits of understanding the universe, or whatever. He's not a cosmic entity, so he can't reshape reality on a cosmic scale, and he's still going to be limited by game mechanics (he can use Transform, but he'll probably not be able to depower people in one shot).

 

He's also going to draw the attention of EVERY COSMIC ENTITY AND MASTER VILLAIN IN THE UNIVERSE and beyond.

Tyrannon's going to want this guy.

Skarn the Shaper? Hey, they could be related.

Takofanes? Fast way to bring back the Turakian Age.

Mechanon? Fast way to wipe out humanity.

 

Anyway, I would actually just ask him if he's aware of the limitations that he is going to have from the game mechanics and let him know that you're not going to handwave things like that. He has to obey the rules like everybody else; he's *not* going to be able to disintigrate an entire building, because he simply doesn't have the AP.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

 

"Now I want to start removing bullet-sized chunks of *him*' date=' starting with the primary motor centers of his brain."[/quote']

 

"So, you buy an RKA, NND, Invisible to Sight and Hearing, with a linked DEX and INT Drain, also NND, Invisible, and ranged of course. So, you get about a half-die of each."