Power Defense

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power Defense

 

Am I being too sensitive or is there a hostile vibe in this thread?

Well, to step back to a sometimes useful game design model, I think the idea of requiring a limited set of SFX, while it may make some sense from a Simulationist standpoint, tends to trample on people's feet from a Gamist standpoint. It tends to raise thoughts like, "Eh. At this point there are much better things to spend my points on than Power Defense, and if the GM throws me against NPCs that target Power Defense, he is just an a** for sending things after me that I cannot hope to defend myself against without continually buying more and more defenses for an increasing number of points."

[CBikle]

Re: Power Defense

 

Am I being too sensitive or is there a hostile vibe in this thread?

 

I wasn't directing any of my comments your way (or anyone's really), they're just all drawn from past experiences as a GM and player.

[CBikle]

Re: Power Defense

 

Well' date=' to step back to a sometimes useful game design model, I think the idea of requiring a limited set of SFX, while it may make some sense from a Simulationist standpoint, tends to trample on people's feet from a Gamist standpoint. It tends to raise thoughts like, "Eh. At this point there are much better things to spend my points on than Power Defense, and if the GM throws me against NPCs that target Power Defense, he is just an a** for sending things after me that I cannot hope to defend myself against without continually buying more and more defenses for an increasing number of points."[/quote']

 

Right. This was pretty much the reaction I had with a PBEM game I was going to play in. The GM had a house rule that Power Defense could only protect one power or characteristic. Was really no big deal , but the power didn't seem worth it to me (even though it was just 5 pts.) , so I put it into something else (Resistance talent I think).

 

Of course it should be noted that the GM had a whole slew of character construction guidelines that made the whole thing very tedious (but the GM seemed like a pretty nice guy).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power Defense

 

Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to state anything negative about anyone's character. I was just illustrating the kind of defensive thoughts that I think such a restriction tends to create.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Power Defense

 

Ok soi am back... and have a little time to complete some thoughts... this will be scattershot covering several different topics...

 

Hulk - See as a general rule i try and stay out of "this epecific super" topics cuz the last comic i read was 20 years ago with the same characters and things get weirder as things go on. i did not know hulk had shifted from big green powerhouse with anger management issues to some sort of mystical embodiment of primal rage. Then again the lasy hulk i recall reading introduced this yellow spandex canadian guy and last thing I knew man-thing was a science gone awry thing not a mystic elemental.

 

Super-strong guy and slow spell... given bricks are the most common "slowest hero on the block" I do not see them as having "speed as their niche" enough to think they naturally resist slow spells, unless of course the SFX is slow-by-means-of-resistance like a solid fog or web spell (which might be according to some a change environment.) So giving bricks power defense that protects vs a slow spell seems inaccurate, If you wanted a slow spell that strength matters, buy that attack to work vs strength in some way. if strength matters to the mechanics of the attack you build, then brick will be better at resisting than a normal guy "because he has strength" not because he has universal defense against things.

 

Saving throw... covered in previous post.

 

Cosmic or godlike "hard to be changed" raises one interesting question for me. If a player approached me with such an SFX for universal power defense, I would ask him "so, this would apply to positive attempts to change you too, right? Its not easier to alter Cosmo's form to give him two extra arms than it is to remove his two arms or to make him more dextrous than less dextrous, right?" Wouldn't the universal power defense examples also need to apply this cannot change me easily principle to powers like AID, SUCCOR, and HEALING to be consistent, more often than not? How many do that who prefer these universal justifications.

 

Finally, let me observe that one official writeup, even questioned and confirmed as the "official way to do it" is to use AID to Dex to represent fighting arrays, the whole "fight better with my teammates" thing. I assume it could likewise be bought using succor and the reverse powers, the "interfere with coordination and teamworks" (maybe a babel spell? a special effect of the goddess of strife and discord's minions?) would work as a drain or suppress along similar lines.

 

Would hulk or other bricks or the "hard to effect my godlike nature" be immune to these, affected by these, or what?

 

Again, summary, adjustment powers are used, even officially, for such a wide span of effects... and transform powers are used for such a wide variety of effects including long lasting versions of normal effects... that i have a real hard time swallowing power defense vs everything, as written in its baseline, as justified in common character writeups or nearly any character writeup i see.

 

i find the limited SFX power defense as much more easily justifiable. So much so that i prefer for it to be the default. Then again, I would also prefer for the default for all adjustment powers to be "vs one sfx" and they not tend to start with "one power but any SFX".

 

Hulk has changed, yes.

 

As for the Slow Spell... Hulk is actually pretty fast, and it is his powers that that make him so. (How can something so big move so fast?). And it is _totally_ Hulk for him to shrug off a spell just because he's Hulk, dammit, and there IS no easy way to stop him...

 

Seriously, 'Unstoppable' is a common (but not universal) Brick Schtick.

 

I mean, if you want a world different from the big supersverses (where magic isn't irresistable), that's one thing, and banning Power Defense to make things so is reasonable enough - but in a normal game, magic shouldn't be inherently all NND's (or, if it is for this character, it should pay the +1).

 

 

Cosmic or Godlike Power Defense shouldn't have to stop strictly positive effects.

 

I mean, usually they have some control and ability to suppress it if they want to.

 

It should only stop positive effects if it's somehow flawed in it's threat assessment.

 

 

The Power of Discord would be a supernatural effect, and thus able to resisted in that way.

 

 

And Power Defense is not immunity, right?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Power Defense

 

Now at the same time, doesn't this same argument of "there are polenty of hereoes who aren't effected as much as a normal by some of these" justification then also apply to any super wanting mental defense, flash defense etc?

 

I mean if the "well, My character is super after all" is acceptable as justification for these, haven't you basically just said "you don't need any justification for these"?

 

its kind of like the "saving throw" argument before... why not to reflect this just give every super a resistance trait which covers the "all supers are more resistant than normals" and then have them pay for the things specific to them.

 

Well, there are characters who can't justify it in that way.

 

There's a difference between superpowers and being super.

 

Most energy based types, for example, or mentalists.

 

Anyone who isn't defined by being 'powerful' in *every* way.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Power Defense

 

Sure.

 

And it's not only that you want it but can't nationalise it. It's that when you build your game mechanics around simulating your character, there's generally no reason to want Power Defense.

 

This is not true of all other defenses.

 

It's easy to imagine a character wading through a hail of gunfire, and to want that. (Though Hero system works against the satisfaction of that highly appropriate desire, due to the Stun lottery.) Or again, it's easy, appropriate and exciting to imagine walking through a blazing building or a river of lava. (Though again, what you may need to defend against may not be the lava but the Stun lottery.) It's perhaps less easy but still very possible to see and get charged up over a successful mental struggle over mental coercion or the very bright lights that your character sees through.

 

But general Power Defense? There seems to be no equally exciting classic comic "bit" associated with that.

 

It's a necessary (or arguably necessary) product of the game system rather than of the source material. It's something you need because of the consequences of not having it.

 

It's natural that when players and characters experience the negative consequences of not having it, they begin to desire it.

 

Actually, it is a classic bit. The bit where some uberpower or effect... just fails, and you overcome.

 

It's just not something you can clearly point to as distinct. Characters who lack it but have other defenses are easy enough.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

I mean, usually they have some control and ability to suppress it if they want to.

 

?

 

Actually that does raise a question. Its generally agreed you can't "Turn off" your PD or ED. Should you be able to turn off your Mental or Power Defense? Say you wanted to let someone read your memories or your energy vampire friend drain a bit your energy to sustain herself?

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

Actually, it is a classic bit. The bit where some uberpower or effect... just fails, and you overcome.

 

It's just not something you can clearly point to as distinct. Characters who lack it but have other defenses are easy enough.

 

Well, another alternative for the Uberpower failing in a role playing game context is that the NPC bombed out on the Effect dice roll.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Defense

 

Well' date=' to step back to a sometimes useful game design model, I think the idea of requiring a limited set of SFX, while it may make some sense from a Simulationist standpoint, tends to trample on people's feet from a Gamist standpoint. It tends to raise thoughts like, "Eh. At this point there are much better things to spend my points on than Power Defense, and if the GM throws me against NPCs that target Power Defense, he is just an a** for sending things after me that I cannot hope to defend myself against without continually buying more and more defenses for an increasing number of points."[/quote']

This is the crux of it right here... there's so many SFX that it'd be impossible, and look silly, to start trying to buy PD (or any Def) as Vs SFX from the get go. If one wanted that it'd be easier for them to Limit a broader Def than try and buy a whole range of potentially useless DEF Powers.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Defense

 

Just to clarify' date=' I wasn't trying to state anything negative about anyone's character. I was just illustrating the kind of defensive thoughts that I think such a restriction tends to create.[/quote']

 

Well, IMX, its not the restriction that creates the thoughts. The thoughts are formed based on personality and past experiences.

 

From my experience, a Gm who has things like this figured out ahead of time and handed out up front at pre-chargen phase, is showing me a Gm who has taken time and is concerned about the characters he has coming in and their traits. This often but not always translates into interesting and "personal to PC" adventures.

 

Thats usually a good sign.

 

On the flip-side, in my experience, having run under GMs who said "if it fits the points its OK" and didn't worry about character concept or justifications for powers and basically did not restrict much at all if any, turned out to not care about the PCs they got, tended to more often throw "things you cannot handle" or "things you have no resistance for" (often just off the cuff) and getting run over by his NPCs (which is what he cared about anyway) was not unusual.

 

they are really not cause and effect but maybe common symptoms or tells of GMing style or mismatching expectations, IMO.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Defense

 

 

Hulk has changed, yes.

 

As for the Slow Spell... Hulk is actually pretty fast, and it is his powers that that make him so. (How can something so big move so fast?). And it is _totally_ Hulk for him to shrug off a spell just because he's Hulk, dammit, and there IS no easy way to stop him...

 

Seriously, 'Unstoppable' is a common (but not universal) Brick Schtick.

yeah see when i read the hulk he was a bit more down to earth and IMo a bit more of a potential PC. He had problems with stuff that didn't deal with brawn and tough... like for instance, when hit by gas he typically went out like a match in a tornado... poof dropped... and he had the same issues with speedsters that others did, cuz he was the hulk, not the sppeedy gree-zipper speedster fellow.

 

I gotta say.. i don't think this mystical resistant unstoppable by anything hulk with some inexplicable magic power to resist anything is within my notion of a PC much at all.

 

I mean, if you want a world different from the big supersverses (where magic isn't irresistable), that's one thing, and banning Power Defense to make things so is reasonable enough - but in a normal game, magic shouldn't be inherently all NND's (or, if it is for this character, it should pay the +1).

I dont know what a "normal game" is.

 

But, in my games, direct magical effects are indeed very often NNDs. A magical firebolt is just fire created by magic. thats cool and works normally. But the spell of slow... thats not going to be resisted by PD or ED. Ballistic spandex won't stop it. Its going to be resisted by something that, within the rules of magic, makes sense for it to be.

 

That prevents magic from being "just another FX with no real difference in play" and preventys it from being "without rhyme or reason" (I am so tired of the catch-all "its magic so it can be anything working anyway i want" dodge I sometimes get from those players).

 

So yeah, there are a lot of NNDs. for magical effects in my games, which doesn't mean indefensibel but rather "the defense makes sense."

Cosmic or Godlike Power Defense shouldn't have to stop strictly positive effects.

So godlike and unstoppable and just better than mortal all come with on/off toggles?

I mean, usually they have some control and ability to suppress it if they want to.

really?

It should only stop positive effects if it's somehow flawed in it's threat assessment.

if the power is making threat assesment decisions, and can make mistakes, why does it only make mistakes on the positive ones?

The Power of Discord would be a supernatural effect, and thus able to resisted in that way.

so, plaz is somehow specially resistant to supernatural effects that don't physically alter him? he is somehow resistant to having his comrades and others get in his way? or he get in theirs? Hulk too? cosmic bunny?

And Power Defense is not immunity, right?

 

depends on how much is bought. Especially given the price for some of the powers mentioned here. Honestly, enough power defense to blunt a irect drain would be effective immunity to powers like:

1- the maiming slow to recover body drain which is highly advantaged for slow recovery.

2- the discord suppress vs dex which is advantaged for likely area of effect and such

 

IMX adjustment powers tend to be low in dice of effect, and priced somewhat high due to the expectation that few characters have any resistance. havijng pow def work vs anything all the time seems to run counter to that in a game sense and especially once we accept the lack of almost any justification caused by accepting "i am super so i can resist things" or "i get a saving throw" accepted round here.

 

or, put another way, If i as Gm were as free with power defense with my NPCs, subjected them to the same "universal defense is cool" and easy pass "i am super" justifications given round here... my players would likely as not figure out really quick that adjustment powers are just not worth the bother.

 

that might be the goal?

 

but this is clearly something we will have to agree to disagree on.

 

which is cool after all.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Power Defense

 

Actually that does raise a question. Its generally agreed you can't "Turn off" your PD or ED. Should you be able to turn off your Mental or Power Defense? Say you wanted to let someone read your memories or your energy vampire friend drain a bit your energy to sustain herself?

 

Well, the interpretation I've gone with (not that it's ever come up) is that any Power can be turned off or lowered; this includes Armour as well as the Exotic Defenses.

 

PD/ED aren't, strictly speaking, a power.

 

If you don't want a power to be able to be turned off without it being inherent, it's about +0; you can't be mindzapped into turning it off, but it might be a pain at times.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Power Defense

 

Well' date=' another alternative for the Uberpower failing in a role playing game context is that the NPC bombed out on the Effect dice roll.[/quote']

 

But where's the fun in that?

 

If the bullets are bouncing because the GM keeps rolling 1's, it's just not the same.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Power Defense

 

 

 

yeah see when i read the hulk he was a bit more down to earth and IMo a bit more of a potential PC. He had problems with stuff that didn't deal with brawn and tough... like for instance, when hit by gas he typically went out like a match in a tornado... poof dropped... and he had the same issues with speedsters that others did, cuz he was the hulk, not the sppeedy gree-zipper speedster fellow.

 

He still has problems. And he's still not a speedster; it's just that 'slow, lumbering brick' has never been a comic archetype. Bad guys aren't scary if they can't hit you, and good guys are ridiculous if they can't tag their enemies.

 

I gotta say.. i don't think this mystical resistant unstoppable by anything hulk with some inexplicable magic power to resist anything is within my notion of a PC much at all.

 

He's not so much a PC. He's an iconic hero with decades of published adventures. If he was still a starting PC, well...

 

Besides, even early hulk was stronger and tougher than Champions tends to set it's bricks at (official conversion was 150 STR a little while back, iirc).

 

And it's not inexplicable, or magic. He has the superpowers of strength, toughness, and, for want of a better word, vitality.

 

'Boundless Rage and Strength' doesn't mean your STR score goes to infinity. It means you have a lot of STR, CON, REC, and associated powers... because 'strong' doesn't just mean 'can lift a lot' it means _powerful_.

 

I dont know what a "normal game" is.

 

But, in my games, direct magical effects are indeed very often NNDs. A magical firebolt is just fire created by magic. thats cool and works normally. But the spell of slow... thats not going to be resisted by PD or ED. Ballistic spandex won't stop it. Its going to be resisted by something that, within the rules of magic, makes sense for it to be.

 

That prevents magic from being "just another FX with no real difference in play" and preventys it from being "without rhyme or reason" (I am so tired of the catch-all "its magic so it can be anything working anyway i want" dodge I sometimes get from those players).

 

So yeah, there are a lot of NNDs. for magical effects in my games, which doesn't mean indefensibel but rather "the defense makes sense."

 

So everyone gets to be Superman, with their awesome powers meaningless next to the Power of MAGIC!

 

?

 

And if Magic is the only thing that works like that, then PowD being split into 'Not vs Magic', 'Only vs Magic' and 'I can resist both, actually' seems about sufficient.

 

Juggernaught, my original example (and the current 'depowered' and reformed Juggernaught could at least be the basic model for a PC), would have it on those grounds. Why doesn't the spell work? 'Cause he's got the mystic energy of CYTORRAK behind him, that's why...!

 

So godlike and unstoppable and just better than mortal all come with on/off toggles?

 

really?

 

More... why WOULD being resistant to harm include resistance to healing?

 

Seriously. If it's because you have some kind of mystic force field that stops everything, that's one thing - and in THAT instance, your Power Defense should have an appopriate limitation.

 

But what in Hulk's powers indicates he's hard to _heal_? He heals incredibly easily, with regeneration as one of his built in powers.

 

See, harm has to go against his powers, which heal him themselves - a healing effect would harmonize, because he was healing already.

 

And if resisting exotic harm is willpower based then, again, they'd let someone trying to heal them heal them.

 

Being hard to heal isn't a side effect of Power Defense. It's unconnected, unless you take some kind of restriction on the character to say otherwise.

 

if the power is making threat assesment decisions, and can make mistakes, why does it only make mistakes on the positive ones?

 

Well, the kind of character who IS immune to all kinds of changing effects, healing and otherwise, is making a mistake in categorizing helpful as harmful and thus shooting it down because it shoots everything down.

 

So they wouldn't be making any kind of threat assesment if they stop everything.

 

 

So if they DID have a 'thinking power' that assesses rather than stops everything then they wouldn't be making ANY mistakes. Because they're cosmically powerful. Their powers don't often have flaws at that power level.

 

so, plaz is somehow specially resistant to supernatural effects that don't physically alter him? he is somehow resistant to having his comrades and others get in his way? or he get in theirs? Hulk too? cosmic bunny?

 

The point is that the anti-array is NOT the opposite of an Array. An Array is completely skill based. It's totally based on their actions.

 

The Anti-Array is something the Discordion is _doing to_ Plaz. If it's subtly altering his body or mind so that he screws up the coordination of their plan, then he can wriggle about and fix it, because his powers let him consciously control such factors.

 

If it's not affecting him, then it's affecting his surroundings, and he can compensate for it.

 

And if it is NOT actually affecting him, then building it as a drain targeting him is a bad way of building it anyway.

 

Similiarly with Hulk or the cosmic bunny - you're trying to change a force of nature - you're matching yourself power against power.

 

depends on how much is bought. Especially given the price for some of the powers mentioned here. Honestly, enough power defense to blunt a irect drain would be effective immunity to powers like:

1- the maiming slow to recover body drain which is highly advantaged for slow recovery.

2- the discord suppress vs dex which is advantaged for likely area of effect and such

 

Well, you try maiming Hulk, Plastic Man, or the Silver Surfer...

 

And discord should either be something they can resist like this, or a Change Enviroment (see, you're _assuming_ it should be a drain).

 

IMX adjustment powers tend to be low in dice of effect, and priced somewhat high due to the expectation that few characters have any resistance. havijng pow def work vs anything all the time seems to run counter to that in a game sense and especially once we accept the lack of almost any justification caused by accepting "i am super so i can resist things" or "i get a saving throw" accepted round here.

 

or, put another way, If i as Gm were as free with power defense with my NPCs, subjected them to the same "universal defense is cool" and easy pass "i am super" justifications given round here... my players would likely as not figure out really quick that adjustment powers are just not worth the bother.

 

that might be the goal?

 

but this is clearly something we will have to agree to disagree on.

 

which is cool after all.

 

Actually, most characters cannot justify power defense - most TYPES of powers can, but specific characters less so.

 

A shapechanger might have power defense - or be doubly resistant, as their malleable form goes along with it with enthusiasm.

 

A brick might shrug it off like Hulk or Juggernaught - or it might crack their shiny exterior like Superman, affecting them as much as any normal man.

 

Cosmic Powered characters should be immune, yes, but dammit, they're cosmic powered, they're supposed to be that scary!

 

A mystic might be resistant due to the power of their magic - or they might have left a chink in their armour [or have a power pool which let's them flipflop between the two depending on how paranoid they feel].

 

A gadgeteer/PAJ might have thought of every contingency and put a plan in place - or they might have just come up with one or two good ideas and not actually COVERED a contingency for dealing with that...

 

A energy blaster is only going to qualify for Power Defense on the same grounds as one of the others I listed.

 

Similiarly, a phenomenally powerful Psionic could be immune just because they're powerful enough to ignore just about anything - but most of their kin will be just as vulnerable as anyone else.

 

 

Power Defense is one of those little things that goes to the _truly_ badass.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Defense

 

 

He still has problems. And he's still not a speedster; it's just that 'slow, lumbering brick' has never been a comic archetype. Bad guys aren't scary if they can't hit you, and good guys are ridiculous if they can't tag their enemies.

slow and lumbering does not equate to cannot hit you.

He's not so much a PC. He's an iconic hero with decades of published adventures. If he was still a starting PC, well...

gotcha... hulk example inappropriate for discussion of PC abilities.

And it's not inexplicable, or magic. He has the superpowers of strength, toughness, and, for want of a better word, vitality.

none of which to me add up to the wide variety of immunities you describe, but then, thats the nature of the beast.

So everyone gets to be Superman, with their awesome powers meaningless next to the Power of MAGIC!

again.. let me repeat... since it seems to have been missed

NND does not mean "has no defense against" but rather "the defense makes sense".

 

And if Magic is the only thing that works like that, then PowD being split into 'Not vs Magic', 'Only vs Magic' and 'I can resist both, actually' seems about sufficient.

actually i prefer for the defense/counter to make sense for all powers, not just magic. So its not... only magic.

Juggernaught, my original example (and the current 'depowered' and reformed Juggernaught could at least be the basic model for a PC), would have it on those grounds. Why doesn't the spell work? 'Cause he's got the mystic energy of CYTORRAK behind him, that's why...!

Sure and just curious, if thats all thats required, then he can have any power, right.

 

Why can he fly? he has the blah blah ctorrak

why can he turn desolid... because blah blah.

why can he shrink to bug sized and control airplanes while shrunk and also read the minds of blondes with large breasts? because of the awesome power of this collection of syllables in the shape of a blue plaid turnip!

 

IMO once you reduce the "justification stage" for character "powers meets concept" or "game mechanics meets GM" you have basically removed the justification stage. Its effectively "have whatever you want"

 

Now, i KNOW... there are those who think thats fine. there are those who feel that a Gm saying "no" is unfairly limiting the players imagination. there are those who feel that a universal RPG means never having to hear the word no... but for me, the better games i have run and played in have not been such.

 

so i lean the other way.

More... why WOULD being resistant to harm include resistance to healing?

inlimited power defense isn't resistance to harm. its resistance to everything that can be done with adjustment powers and that covers a much wider gap.

 

remember, it was me who suggested having tough guy buy power defense limited to "against physical harm SFX" which was rejected by some.

 

if the tough guy pow def was limited to match that SFX then he wouldn't have a problem against healing.

 

but if his "mystic unable to be changed" effect worked vs "transform to remove two arms" then oughtn't it work against the same power used to add two arms?

 

 

But what in Hulk's powers indicates he's hard to _heal_? He heals incredibly easily, with regeneration as one of his built in powers.

that was why i suggested his pow def SFX apply to "physical harm SFX" not to the whole wide variety that unlimited pow def apply to.

And if resisting exotic harm is willpower based then, again, they'd let someone trying to heal them heal them.

and would the willpower based one work while out cold?

Being hard to heal isn't a side effect of Power Defense. It's unconnected, unless you take some kind of restriction on the character to say otherwise.

unlimted power defense makes you hard to change by a vast and wide variety of means. Its just odd to me that so many see that as fine but see having it interfere with "changes i want" as inappropriate.

 

Again, pow def for "hard to hurt physically" would not interfere with healing or with "here have two more arms" or the array fighting style things... but it also wouldn't cover a wide variety of other unpleasant effects either.

 

So if they DID have a 'thinking power' that assesses rather than stops everything then they wouldn't be making ANY mistakes. Because they're cosmically powerful. Their powers don't often have flaws at that power level.

cosmic power means no mistakes?

 

sounds very very boring to play.

The point is that the anti-array is NOT the opposite of an Array. An Array is completely skill based. It's totally based on their actions.

so, plaz cannot react accordingly to having my allies get in his way in a manner helpful to me to nullify the problem caused. gotcha

 

If it's not affecting him, then it's affecting his surroundings, and he can compensate for it.

but plaz can react to acordingly to having his allies get in the way in a manner helpful to me to nullify the problem.

 

of course, had i described this not as a dex drain that can produce a 3 Cv swing off the dex, but instead built it "unofficially" with DCV levels for my character, plaz wouldn't be able to "resist it".

 

Simply put... I have my discord field... it causes eneies attack me in numbers to get in each others way...

 

If i build the effect (whether mental power or magic spell or just "really good at fighting multiple bad guys and using their numbers against them)...

 

I build it the exact reverse of the beneficial official version so i use an adjustment power... plaz is somehow resistant to the effect because "thats the way he is".

 

I build it as a change environment CV penalty selective... he doesn't resist it at all.

 

I build it as bonus Cv levels to me limited to "only when fighting multiple foes" (which is BTW the definitely unofficial way I would buy a fighting array too)... and again plaz is not resistant.

 

 

 

And if it is NOT actually affecting him, then building it as a drain targeting him is a bad way of building it anyway.

Im am not the one who wrote and confirmed the aid to dex as the way to do fighting array.

And discord should either be something they can resist like this, or a Change Enviroment (see, you're _assuming_ it should be a drain).

aid and drain are the opposite effects. if array is officially aid, then it follows that...

Actually, most characters cannot justify power defense - most TYPES of powers can, but specific characters less so.

"i have the awsome power of HGFJYBBN in the shape of a mystic blue plaid turnip."

 

A shapechanger might have power defense - or be doubly resistant, as their malleable form goes along with it with enthusiasm.

 

A brick might shrug it off like Hulk or Juggernaught - or it might crack their shiny exterior like Superman, affecting them as much as any normal man.

 

Cosmic Powered characters should be immune, yes, but dammit, they're cosmic powered, they're supposed to be that scary!

 

A mystic might be resistant due to the power of their magic - or they might have left a chink in their armour [or have a power pool which let's them flipflop between the two depending on how paranoid they feel].

 

A gadgeteer/PAJ might have thought of every contingency and put a plan in place - or they might have just come up with one or two good ideas and not actually COVERED a contingency for dealing with that...

 

A energy blaster is only going to qualify for Power Defense on the same grounds as one of the others I listed.

 

Similiarly, a phenomenally powerful Psionic could be immune just because they're powerful enough to ignore just about anything - but most of their kin will be just as vulnerable as anyone else.

 

 

Power Defense is one of those little things that goes to the _truly_ badass.

 

uh huh...

 

back to that agree to disagree.

 

if i adopt that criteria, then almost no PC level character ever uses it, and the whole "well without pow def my GM screws me" notion seems to ring a bit hollow...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defense

 

Or again' date=' it's easy, appropriate and exciting to imagine walking through a blazing building or a river of lava.[/quote']

 

So are you buying ED, or Limited ED? You bought +60 ED to be immune to fire - why are you also immune to lightning, radiation and cold? [To pick three other energy types which aren't directly connected to heat/fire] Universal ED doesn't make a lot more sense than universal power defense.

 

BTW, to the discussion of "immune to Aid", since when has any defensive power prevented positive effects? Power Defense doesn't defend against Healing or Aid, any more than PD defends against a therapeutic massage or ED defends against being warmed by a fireplace.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power Defense

 

BTW' date=' to the discussion of "immune to Aid", since when has any defensive power prevented positive effects? Power Defense doesn't defend against Healing or Aid, any more than PD defends against a therapeutic massage or ED defends against being warmed by a fireplace.[/quote']

They do if the character doesn't want the positive effects for some reason. Steve Long said that in some answer on the Rules Questions Forum. You can look for it if you want. I would, but I'm feeling lazy.

 

I could imagine some Limitation (such as perhaps Always On) for which it might also be reasonable for the GM to rule that the defense applies vs. positive effects.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defense

 

They do if the character doesn't want the positive effects for some reason. Steve Long said that in some answer on the Rules Questions Forum. You can look for it if you want. I would' date=' but I'm feeling lazy. [/quote']

 

Well, go with Steve or not as you see fit. Just as easy to be Aided and not use the enhancement. In any case, it's not the automatic "resistant to Drain = resistant to Aid" being bandied about in other posts.

 

I could imagine some Limitation (such as perhaps Always On) for which it might also be reasonable for the GM to rule that the defense applies vs. positive effects.

 

I think that's a reasonable limitation to impose for a -1/2 value (whether you call it "always on" or something else).

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Power Defense

 

(sobs)

 

I just wrote a massive reply to everything he just wrote... and managed to misclick and lose it all. I am feeling SO much hate right now.

 

Summary:

 

If you disagree with me, you are playing WRONG.

 

If you cannot accept that, you are not worth the time to explain it.

 

 

And comparing Juggernaught to 'the power of Plaid' is just dumb.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

I'll assume that's meant in a hurmous manner. It safer that way.

[David Johnston]

Re: Power Defense

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhammeWhamme

But what in Hulk's powers indicates he's hard to _heal_? He heals incredibly easily, with regeneration as one of his built in powers.

 

that was why i suggested his pow def SFX apply to "physical harm SFX" not to the whole wide variety that unlimited pow def apply to.

The problem of course is that nobody would ever imagine that while designing their Hulk from scratch. After all, the muscle rip "bricktrick" isn't possessed by any Marvel character whatsoever. So the Hulk would be getting a defense against which there is no known attack. It's like getting access to swine flu vaccine as a perk.

[Lucius]

Re: Power Defense

 

So are you buying ED' date=' or Limited ED? You bought +60 ED to be immune to fire - why are you also immune to lightning, radiation and cold? [To pick three other energy types which aren't directly connected to heat/fire'] Universal ED doesn't make a lot more sense than universal power defense.

 

BTW, to the discussion of "immune to Aid", since when has any defensive power prevented positive effects? Power Defense doesn't defend against Healing or Aid, any more than PD defends against a therapeutic massage or ED defends against being warmed by a fireplace.

 

While I can see some sense on both sides of the argument, basically, I agree with Hugh Neilson & co: "universal" Power Defense is not really weirder or harder to justify than Energy and Physical Defense and the powers that provide them. My last character with martial arts and Chi abilities had the powers Serene Mind (Mental Defense - "His disciplined mental serenity is hard to penetrate or disturb") and Self Mastery (Power Defense - "He is the master of his own mind, body, and spirit.") I would have been both surprised and perhaps displeased if the Game Operations Director questioned either of those, although I don't think I'd walk out if told to drop the Self Mastery. To those who think Power Defense should always be limited in some way, though, I ask the question: how would you limit that?

 

 

Ultimately, though, I think we just have to "agree to disagree" on this one. We all have the right to run our games the way we want, and past a certain point of discussion, we just start getting to snide comments about the power of plaid turnips. And if you're going to resort to that, I just have to say that if you posted one of YOUR champions characters, I'd bet that from 50 to 90% of the powers listed would be vulnerable to being made fun of in exactly the same way. Even in the other genres you can probably find something to mock, but I don't see where such mockery is that effective as an argument.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary observes a sign of the times: For Sale, By Owner. Well, we should certainly hope so. If you're selling something and it's not yours, you wouldn't want to advertise the fact that it's stolen, would you?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Power Defense

 

Those aren't bad, but wouldn't work on many of the GMs I know.

 

Really, the best route towards rationalizing buying Power Def (after character creation) is to lump it in with other purchases (camoflauging it) like saying you're buying new armor with a special invisible force-layer that provides Knockback Resistance, Lack Of Weakness, Life Support vs high and low-pressure and Power Defense.

 

As a player, I could never do that. For one, it's underhanded and sneaky and the GM should be able to trust me (we playing a game together as friends after all). For another, it's just inviting the GM to say "what? when did you buy Power Defense? Uh-uh... if I didn't see it you didn't buy it, lose 15 STR!"

 

My third excuse ususally works though, assuming it's actually true.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Power Defense

 

Back on the subject of "universal" Power Defense (or any other Defense), it could be pointed out that we aren't using these rules to simulate a reality that makes sense. In a superhero, fantasy or sci-fi world, things like this just happen, and when something happens that someone thinks might not make sense, it's easy to write off as "wow, who would have figured that my magic bracelet of unchangability would protect me from that?! Magic rocks!" It's all part and parcel of the "heroic" supergenre.