Power Defense

[nexus]

Does anyone else have kind of an "issue" with this power? I Know why its there. Every type of attack should have a defense and Adjustment powers are a seperate type of attack. Its simple and effective but it seems to cover such a wide variety of special effects its hard to come up with reason for universal power defense. For example, in a campaign I was playing in a Power Suit type character was subjected to an Ego Drain power from a villian. So he spent some expeirence points on Power Defense (apparently enough to make him completly immune to villian's attack). Understandable, but it seems odd that his character is not only immune to her largely mental effect but he's just as resistant to a matter manipulator destroying his suits structural intergrity, a life leeching alien slowly killing him and not even effecting the suit, a sorcere's spell of soul destruction (ego drain) or an Electrokinetic draining the suits power calls all from effectively one system. I'm sure there are example of this sort of thing in the "source material" but it seems a bit, I guess, too much for me personally.

 

Has anyone run into the mental hurdle? I avoid it when I gm by trying to avoid ajustment powers as much as possible and ususally asking those who get Power Defense to purchase a limitation on it, even its -0.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Power Defense

 

Well, I have a House rule about Power Defense

 

(Yeah, I know what you are thinking..."WHAT!?!?! RKane_1 having a House Rule? Why, thats unHEARD of!"

 

But in my Game Power Defense gets an automatic -1/2 Limitation but has to either chose a special effect it protects (Fire, Cold, Electricity, etc); an attribute to protect (Strength, Endurance, Ego, etc) or if they take no limitation, a SPECIFIC type of Adjustment Power special effect that they guard against (but these I strictly define as Biochemical, Magical, Psionic, Structural, or OTHER (which also must be defined but cannot be in part or whole related to the previously four mentioned types) .

 

I think a Blanket Power Defense is too open of a power to be so cheap.

 

*hides and prepares for the barrage*

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defense

 

The alternative is to have a huge array of different Power Defenses, which I'd just as soon avoid. However, I rarely see characters take power defense as few concepts cry out for it, so I haven't experienced this as an issue. My players don't feel obliged to buy defenses against every attack that affects them - they accept that some attacks are quite effective against their character.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Defense

 

Only once have I ever felt a want for it... the character in question was being attacked by a large AoE Transform ... of course they have low defenses across the board so I was accepting it gracefully... the only thing that saved them was a large AID: Body.

 

Otherwise .. yeah I haver a hard time fitting just plain old Power Def into a character concept.

[David Johnston]

Re: Power Defense

 

villian's attack). Understandable, but it seems odd that his character is not only immune to her largely mental effect but he's just as resistant to a matter manipulator destroying his suits structural intergrity, a life leeching alien slowly killing him and not even effecting the suit, a sorcere's spell of soul destruction (ego drain) or an Electrokinetic draining the suits power calls all from effectively one system. I'm sure there are example of this sort of thing in the "source material" but it seems a bit, I guess, too much for me personally.

 

Has anyone run into the mental hurdle? I avoid it when I gm by trying to avoid ajustment powers as much as possible and ususally asking those who get Power Defense to purchase a limitation on it, even its -0.

 

If you come up with a clear idea of what the power actually does in terms of special effect and build to match, that's not so much of a problem. For example if you really think that Ego Destruction Guy is doing something fundamentally different from Sorcerer Guy then you have to clearly visualise how it really is different. If Ego Destruction Guy is actually destroying people's egos just by bludgeoning people with particularly fierce mental attacks then go ahead and change the defense to Mental Defense. That should be about a +0 advantage.

[gojira]

Re: Power Defense

 

But in my Game Power Defense gets an automatic -1/2 Limitation but has to either chose a special effect it protects

 

I go the opposite route. I allow some attacks to be bought AVLD where the defense is enhanced Power Defense.

 

For example, some Demonic powers are Transform AVLD +3/4, the defense is Power Defense at +1/2. This still works as regular Power Defense. For -1, you can buy Power Defense that ONLY works vs Demonic Transforms. (So -1/2 total.)

 

All this is basically intended to simulate the old rules for Spirit powers and Spirit Defense. Power Defense at +1/2 is Spirit Defense.

 

Most campaigns have a few SFX that allows this form of AVLD. Super Science (super == way beyond what the players start with), gods, demons, certain very powerful magics...thats about it. The goddess waves her hand and you are unable to resist... AVLD vs Godly Magic Resistance (= PwrD +1/2). Demons smacking you around? Necromancers have attacks you can't resist? Gotta find the thingy, chant, or priestess that can help ya. Etc.

 

As for how to justify regular Power Defense... Jebus! You're a super hero for crud's sake. You bounce bullet with your chest, juggle tanks around and can move object with your mind. You wonder why you can resist Dr. Ebil's ebil mind probe? 'Cause you're SUPER! If you don't wanna be super, go play GURPS or something, we're busy savin' the world over here.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

I go the opposite route. I allow some attacks to be bought AVLD where the defense is enhanced Power Defense.

 

For example, some Demonic powers are Transform AVLD +3/4, the defense is Power Defense at +1/2. This still works as regular Power Defense. For -1, you can buy Power Defense that ONLY works vs Demonic Transforms. (So -1/2 total.)

 

All this is basically intended to simulate the old rules for Spirit powers and Spirit Defense. Power Defense at +1/2 is Spirit Defense.

 

Most campaigns have a few SFX that allows this form of AVLD. Super Science (super == way beyond what the players start with), gods, demons, certain very powerful magics...thats about it. The goddess waves her hand and you are unable to resist... AVLD vs Godly Magic Resistance (= PwrD +1/2). Demons smacking you around? Necromancers have attacks you can't resist? Gotta find the thingy, chant, or priestess that can help ya. Etc.

 

As for how to justify regular Power Defense... Jebus! You're a super hero for crud's sake. You bounce bullet with your chest, juggle tanks around and can move object with your mind. You wonder why you can resist Dr. Ebil's ebil mind probe? 'Cause you're SUPER! If you don't wanna be super, go play GURPS or something, we're busy savin' the world over here.

 

What about GURPS Supers?

 

Anyway, different people have differnet levels of SOD. I like to have some "reasonable" explanation of powers beyond "I have the points for it" even if its all "Handwavium" in the end. YMMV.

[Kenn]

Re: Power Defense

 

I'm with Mr. Neilson. I rarely see it used because so few character concepts call for it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Power Defense

 

Power Defense seems to be the catch-all Defense for Powers that aren't specifically NND and aren't logically versus any other kind of Defense. I'm okay with that. If a character should have a defensive power that protects against a specific, or type (in terms of SFX), and that defense happens to be Power Defense, I'll usually Limit it to that SFX. Easily taken care of. If the character is the sort that he'd have some universal "protect-all" defense, then straight Power Defense is what he gets.

[gojira]

Re: Power Defense

 

Anyway' date=' different people have differnet levels of SOD. I like to have some "reasonable" explanation of powers beyond "I have the points for it" even if its all "Handwavium" in the end. YMMV. [/quote']

 

Basically, yes. Heroes have power defense because they are heroes. Call it Willpower, True Blue, Religious Fervor, the Fantastic Strength of My Fantastic Mind, etc. It all adds up to resisting the powers of villains because you should be able to do so.

 

Five points of Power Defense should be no problem for anyone in a 350 point campaign. Stuff which makes normal people succumb quickly should be resisted by heroes for a least a little while. More than about 10 points needs justification on my personal scale, but that’s just where I build my villains at. 3d6 of Adjustment powers is still fairly weak. 6d6 of Adjustment powers is a doozy.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

Five points of Power Defense should be no problem for anyone in a 350 point campaign. Stuff which makes normal people succumb quickly should be resisted by heroes for a least a little while. More than about 10 points needs justification on my personal scale' date=' but that’s just where I build my villains at. 3d6 of Adjustment powers is still fairly weak. 6d6 of Adjustment powers is a doozy.[/quote']

 

Like I said, that's cool just not an opinion I agree with. My milage varies.

[Mike W]

Re: Power Defense

 

I generally don't have a problem with power defense. I don't use a lot of adjustment powers anyway and anything that is mental gets bought as a mental power(so a mentalist trying to do an EGO drain buys it Based on ECV) and since the power is now defined as a Mental attack, power defense no longer works, even though it's a drain effect(at least that's how it works in my campaign). Having something be "blanket" from the others is ok because it generally works the same in comic universes. It doesn't matter who is trying to do it, rearranging the molecules in Iron Man's suit is almost impossible(note I said ALMOST, since Molecule Man actually did it).

[Frenchman]

Re: Power Defense

 

Power defense, at it's most generic, does have a unified special effect that works against all adjustment powers: "I am difficult to alter"

Thats what all adjustment powers do, regardless of how they do them - they alter your character.

If you need a different version of power def to resist magic than you do to resist psionics (to pick two from Rkane's list at random), do you need a different version of energy defense to resist fire than you do acid?

I personally have some trouble coming up with more than three or four different (ie: non-generic) special effects for something which defends you against fire, electricity, cold, plasma, sound waves, acid, and a host of other energy attacks but doesn't help against a sword or stick.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Power Defense

 

Power defense, at it's most generic, does have a unified special effect that works against all adjustment powers: "I am difficult to alter"

Thats what all adjustment powers do, regardless of how they do them - they alter your character.

If you need a different version of power def to resist magic than you do to resist psionics (to pick two from Rkane's list at random), do you need a different version of energy defense to resist fire than you do acid?

I personally have some trouble coming up with more than three or four different (ie: non-generic) special effects for something which defends you against fire, electricity, cold, plasma, sound waves, acid, and a host of other energy attacks but doesn't help against a sword or stick.

 

This is generally how I think of it. Energy and Physical Defense are equally broad in what they cover. The same basic ED protects equally against lightning, fire, lasers, etc, even though each of those SFX are doing damage differently (or may be depending on how the energy is applied). PD is the same, providing equal protection from physical impacts, crushing, being shaken up, etc. Power Defense is just a similar catch-all for "things that change me".

[gojira]

Re: Power Defense

 

This is generally how I think of it. Energy and Physical Defense are equally broad in what they cover. The same basic ED protects equally against lightning' date=' fire, lasers, etc, even though each of those SFX are doing damage differently (or may be depending on how the energy is applied). PD is the same, providing equal protection from physical impacts, crushing, being shaken up, etc. Power Defense is just a similar catch-all for "things that change me".[/quote']

 

This is good. I don't require any more handwavium for lots of PD other than "he's tough," and I don't require more handwavium for 5 to 10 points of Power Defense beyond "he's tough."

 

More often, a character concept requires not buying a specific defense, rather than justification to buy a defense. Most of my "he's tough" characters don't have Mental Defense because the should be vulnerable to mental powers. The characters don't need a justification to buy a defense, but rather to NOT buy a defense. Adding a specific vulnerability or susceptability or two beyond that helps to round the character out.

 

The only reason I'd not buy 5 points of Power Defense for a character was if they were supposed to be somehow normal or vulnerable in that reguard.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

That's an interesting approach.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

I think the issues resolved for me. Generally I'll probably require some level of limitation on Power Defense, even its -0. There might be some rare entities that have the universal version but they're pretty few and far between. Thanks for all the input.

[gojira]

Re: Power Defense

 

Just to sorta toss another nickle in the pot, I'd do a -0 lim for a specific SFX with a vulnerability. If Superguy has 15 points of Power Defense and Vul: 2x from Magic, he ain't gonna be very super after being turned in to a frog.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Power Defense

 

. There might be some rare entities that have the universal version but they're pretty few and far between.

 

Cool.

 

I have a tendancy to have character designes that fit the universal. One character is a Godling - so it doesn't matter if it's tech or magic or whatnot, she resists it.

 

I have another who is a supersuit supermage - his PowerD is a suit system that protects against tech/normal type adjustment powers that he enchanted with the laws of similarity to affect everything.

 

 

I've seriously thought about going the route of requiring a lim.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Power Defense

 

I tend to only buy unlimited (Rook had it only vs Energy because his powers were 'I absorb energy') Power Defense for characters that are brick variants or some such, where they simply are tough enough to resist anything. Hardened DEF, probably mental DEF, life supports and PowD.

 

Because they are just hard to effect with _anything_. Comes with the whole 'nigh-invulnerability' deal.

[David Johnston]

Re: Power Defense

 

Just to sorta toss another nickle in the pot' date=' I'd do a -0 lim for a specific SFX with a vulnerability. If Superguy has 15 points of Power Defense and Vul: 2x from Magic, he ain't gonna be very super after being turned in to a frog.[/quote']

 

It hardly matters. Double the amount of points of effect and 15 points of protection ain't gonna cut it. And of course Superman would have no Power Defense anyway. That's why he was such a sucker for the Parasite. Characters with Power Defense are rare critters.

[gojira]

Re: Power Defense

 

Sure, that was kinda my point. 2x effect is basically saying your defense didn't matter to begin with. Unless the effect was VERY small itself. But it's still a tad different than "not vs. X" lim on the original power.

 

"Not vs. Magic" is probably worth -1/4 in the DC world. There's a fair amount of magic around, and once people figure it out (they will eventually, at least for common foes) you can expect deliberate attempts to exploit the weakness. "Half Defense vs. Magic" might be fairer for a -0 lim.

 

But if the character is supposed to be vulnerable to magic overall, not just vs. magical alteration, the Vulnerability Disadvantage works better, imo.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Defense

 

Does anyone else have kind of an "issue" with this power? I Know why its there.

 

I have and i agree almost completely.

 

If i enforce "reasonable SFX" no one would ever get full unlimited power defense and every power defense amount would be significantly limited, since it is rare that one would be immune to itching poweder, poisons, life drains, matter transmutation, and the whole gamut of FX adjustment powers are used to cover in HERO.

 

this of course, runs directly contrary to most characters wirtten with power defense in actual hero products, who are that immune to all the things adjustment powers and transforms do.

 

One solution would be to house rule thaT pow def as written applies to a single SFX of effects and allow them to buy additional SFX using the usual scheme for adjustment powers.

 

Thats a rules change so hoardes will decend any moment citing the doom and gloom it would cause.

 

Another approach, one i used fairly successfully in my last game, was to use a LOT of +1/2 NND on adjustment powers for my NPCs and to scrutinize the PC adjustment powers as well. I found this NND approach matches SFX often a whole lot better than any "vs power defense" would for the majority of adj powers i used. I also allowed adjustment powers of "mental type" to work vs Men Def for free, but also required it in most cases, so you couldn't "get around" the mentalist's mental d for your ego drain, usually. The power defense was still cheap but it just didn't apply as often, a many of the adj powers went against some reasonable counter.

 

A house rule I am considering for my next HERO game is to redefine adjustment powers "dy default" to be of the NND-type variety. Instead of being affected by power defense, they are affected by whatever reasonable counter we assign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defense

 

One solution would be to house rule thaT pow def as written applies to a single SFX of effects and allow them to buy additional SFX using the usual scheme for adjustment powers.

 

A rules change! Allow me to descend and cite the doom and gloom this would cause.

 

Thats a rules change so hoardes will decend any moment citing the doom and gloom it would cause.

 

GASP!

 

I don't see it any more fair to restrict Power Defense to a single FX than it would be to similarly restrict, say, ED to only one type of energy (really, one power that makes you resistant to heat, cold, electricity and radiation, not to mention all those other things that fall under "energy"). If the modification to the defense were accompanied by a cost reduction commensurate with the loss of utility/versatility of the power, that would seem more reasonable, in my opinion.

 

Another approach' date=' one i used fairly successfully in my last game, was to use a LOT of +1/2 NND on adjustment powers for my NPCs and to scrutinize the PC adjustment powers as well. I found this NND approach matches SFX often a whole lot better than any "vs power defense" would for the majority of adj powers i used. I also allowed adjustment powers of "mental type" to work vs Men Def for free, but also required it in most cases, so you couldn't "get around" the mentalist's mental d for your ego drain, usually. The power defense was still cheap but it just didn't apply as often, a many of the adj powers went against some reasonable counter.A house rule I am considering for my next HERO game is to redefine adjustment powers "dy default" to be of the NND-type variety. Instead of being affected by power defense, they are affected by whatever reasonable counter we assign.[/quote']

 

I consider the NND and AVLD advantages, when applied to powers already acting against exotic defenses, to be overpriced to begin with. In my view, it should be +0 to switch between power, mental and flash defense (just like it's +0 to swap between PD and ED). Downgrading an "AVLD by default" power to NND should be a -1/4 limitation (5 x 2.5 = 12.5/1.25 = 10 = 5 x 2), but perhaps more of a +0 since there is some utility in selecting the specific powers that defend against your power. I think making adjustment powers NND, rather than "vs power defense" by defaut would be a reasonable house rule - one could then eliminate power defense entirely.

 

That leaves the guy who is just resistant to adjustment out in the cold, but we could always allow damage reduction against adjustment powers for sch characters.

[gojira]

Re: Power Defense

 

If i enforce "reasonable SFX" no one would ever get full unlimited power defense and every power defense amount would be significantly limited' date=' since it is rare that one would be immune to itching poweder, poisons, life drains, matter transmutation, and the whole gamut of FX adjustment powers are used to cover in HERO.[/quote']

 

This is pretty reasonable, although I agree with Hugh also. ED covers just as broad of range of SFX and no one seems to have a problem with that.

 

I'd allow a player to take half a dozen or so SFX on their Power Def for -1/2. If they are all fairly common SFX or there's rather more than six of them, maybe -1/4. But points wise that's pretty fair.

 

I do have six or so SFX which power defense is not useful for. These are always defined for any campaign and genre. These SFX all require AVLD at the full advantage value (+1.5 or +3/4 as appropriate). Magic from Ancient Thule, Demonic Magic, Angelic Magic, certain Alien Superscience, a few others along those lines. Players and villain do not normally have access to these powers. These are only for times when I want to specifically hassle the players with something they can't fight on their own. And players do have some way of aquiring a defense, if only temporarily, because the whole point is that the players will win in the end.