Power Defense

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Power Defense

 

I have and i agree almost completely.

 

If i enforce "reasonable SFX" no one would ever get full unlimited power defense and every power defense amount would be significantly limited, since it is rare that one would be immune to itching poweder, poisons, life drains, matter transmutation, and the whole gamut of FX adjustment powers are used to cover in HERO.

 

this of course, runs directly contrary to most characters wirtten with power defense in actual hero products, who are that immune to all the things adjustment powers and transforms do.

 

One solution would be to house rule thaT pow def as written applies to a single SFX of effects and allow them to buy additional SFX using the usual scheme for adjustment powers.

 

Thats a rules change so hoardes will decend any moment citing the doom and gloom it would cause.

 

Another approach, one i used fairly successfully in my last game, was to use a LOT of +1/2 NND on adjustment powers for my NPCs and to scrutinize the PC adjustment powers as well. I found this NND approach matches SFX often a whole lot better than any "vs power defense" would for the majority of adj powers i used. I also allowed adjustment powers of "mental type" to work vs Men Def for free, but also required it in most cases, so you couldn't "get around" the mentalist's mental d for your ego drain, usually. The power defense was still cheap but it just didn't apply as often, a many of the adj powers went against some reasonable counter.

 

A house rule I am considering for my next HERO game is to redefine adjustment powers "dy default" to be of the NND-type variety. Instead of being affected by power defense, they are affected by whatever reasonable counter we assign.

 

I disagree.

 

"I am superhumanly tough in every way" is not that unusual. Juggernaught, say.

 

It is an unusual power, but not unheard of. Power Defense covers the etceteras on the list of your resistances.

 

Those with cosmic type resistance to harm (as opposed to DC type invulnerability to direct physical/energy damage) of any kind are justified in having it. Mostly good for those "Boss" type villains (you know, the guys the whole team has a go at), but a hero with powers along similiar lines fit.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power Defense

 

So I'll fall back on the now popular triangle approach, much as I dislike fads.

 

I don't have a problem with Power Defense. It is a game mechanic. It serves to balance the game by providing a small but diverse set of defenses from a, "gamist," perspective, and it can cover a good set of SFX--especially when Modified--from a, "narrativist," perspective (meaning along with other defenses in creative interplay it can be used to construct a wide variety of flavors for your characters, equipment, and plots). From a, "simulationist," perspective, most of the things Power Defense acts against are unrealistic anyway, so it is rather moot. The exceptions would probably be things like diseases and such, and we all know there are those who just don't get sick as often as others, and these are probably healthy and hearty enough to withstand larger, "realistic," shocks to their system. Whatever.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Power Defense

 

This is generally how I think of it. Energy and Physical Defense are equally broad in what they cover. The same basic ED protects equally against lightning' date=' fire, lasers, etc, even though each of those SFX are doing damage differently (or may be depending on how the energy is applied). PD is the same, providing equal protection from physical impacts, crushing, being shaken up, etc. Power Defense is just a similar catch-all for "things that change me".[/quote']

 

But if it ONLY defended against a particular special effect, would you not give it a disad? This is why I have the limitation in place. For broader sfx, No limitation. If you are a mentalist master and you buy Power Defense to make it harder to mentally transform or drain you, why would it make it harder for toxic spewage to mutate you or drain your con. I delineate more because I can as a GM and have had few players complain about this one. It makes sense to 'em. It makes sense to me but....ymmv.

 

Just the same way that people used to say in D&D "Armor Class is a combination of armor resilience and ability to dodge."

 

Then someone thought the two should be separate and more logically separated into a hit to strike (OCV) and defense to absorb damage (PD/ED, et al.). The difference seems logical but in D&D, the mechanic worked irregardless. Why change it? Someone felt like it and felt it would add to the game.

 

I feel it adds to the game to further delineate this power. Ergo, I change it. You do not, ergo, you don't.

 

YMMV.

 

[Dust Raven]

Re: Power Defense

 

But if it ONLY defended against a particular special effect, would you not give it a disad? This is why I have the limitation in place. For broader sfx, No limitation. If you are a mentalist master and you buy Power Defense to make it harder to mentally transform or drain you, why would it make it harder for toxic spewage to mutate you or drain your con. I delineate more because I can as a GM and have had few players complain about this one. It makes sense to 'em. It makes sense to me but....ymmv.

 

Well, my miliage does not vary in this case. If the defense purchased (any defense, not just Power Defense) is only versus a specific SFX, then it should be Limited. If your PD only applies versus falls and impacts to the entire body, then it takes a Limitation. If your ED only apples versus fire and heat, it takes a Limitation. If your Mental Defense only applies against psionics, it takes a Limitation. If your Power Defense only applies versus magic, it takes a Limitation. If your Flash Defense.... and so on.

 

On the specific example of buying Power Defense for a mentalist to resist mental transforms, that's way to broad. Why would a psionic mentalist with a super strong mind be less vulnerable to a Transform based on the character's BODY Characteristic? If the Transform (or Drain, Dispel, etc.) is mental, it's versus Mental Defense, not Power Defense. If it's not versus Mental Defense, it's not mental in nature, even if it effects a character's mind in some way. The mentalist need not buy an extra Defense Power at all. At least in my games.

 

On the Power Defense and D&D's Armor Class, I dont really see any similarity. I also don't see the Hero System's method of separating hit probability and damage absorption as superior to D&D's method of calculating it all into a single stat (or vice versa). As far as Power Defense is concerned, it works fine the way it's presented and you seem to be using it as such. Maybe I missed something.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

I think many people on this thread are in a form of violent agreement which seems pretty common online. Power Defense itself, is acceptable. as a mechanic but the primary area of contention seems to be how common different people think "universal" Power Defense should be.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defense

 

"I am superhumanly tough in every way" is not that unusual. Juggernaught' date=' say. [/quote']

 

The best two examples of "superhumanly tough" are Superman and Juggernaut, off the top of my head. Superman is fully vulnerable to the adjustment powers of the Parasite. Juggernaut's powers have an odd reaction to Rogue's powers - she steals exactly half of them and, when they fade, he doesn't get them back. They go back to the gem.

 

I can't recall either character attacked by other adjustment powers. In fact, adjustment powers themselves seem quite rare in the comics. They also seem very effective, with characters generally being affected by them, however tough they otherwise may be. Anyone have any source examples that indicate otherwise? Maybe I'm missing something.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

Can Parasite absorb through armor or protective clothing?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defense

 

Can Parasite absorp through armor or protective clothing?

 

I don't recall him ever being stopped by such devices, but I don't recall an instance where he's gone up against such an opponent. Of course, we then get into the fine differentiation between Parasite's powers being stopped by some material (NND) or that protective clothing/armor having Power Defense itself. IIRC, Parasite actually gains power from Superman's proximity, and doesn't need to make physical contact.

 

The Grey Gargoyle (Transform) was able to transfrom Thor to stone, but could only transform Iron Man's armor, not the man inside, to stone when he battled the Avengers. There's another one that no one seems to have an immunity to, but that has some limits. Mind you, I could chalk the IM thing up to artistic license in that Iron Man was every bit as helpless stuck in stone armor as he would have been transformed to stone.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

I don't recall him ever being stopped by such devices, but I don't recall an instance where he's gone up against such an opponent. Of course, we then get into the fine differentiation between Parasite's powers being stopped by some material (NND) or that protective clothing/armor having Power Defense itself. IIRC, Parasite actually gains power from Superman's proximity, and doesn't need to make physical contact.

 

The Grey Gargoyle (Transform) was able to transfrom Thor to stone, but could only transform Iron Man's armor, not the man inside, to stone when he battled the Avengers. There's another one that no one seems to have an immunity to, but that has some limits. Mind you, I could chalk the IM thing up to artistic license in that Iron Man was every bit as helpless stuck in stone armor as he would have been transformed to stone.

 

Friend of mine mentioned that he thinks Steel has some sort of defense built into his armor against Parasite's powers so I guess he's not stopped by protective clothing.

[David Johnston]

Re: Power Defense

 

But if it ONLY defended against a particular special effect, would you not give it a disad? This is why I have the limitation in place. For broader sfx, No limitation. If you are a mentalist master and you buy Power Defense to make it harder to mentally transform or drain you, why would it make it harder for toxic spewage to mutate you or drain your con.

 

 

I think that's the wrong end of the stick. The mentalist master shouldn't be buying Power Defense to make it harder to mentally transform or drain him. The Psycho Transmuter should be buying his mental transforms so that mental defense is effective against them. On the whole I think that should be standard with "mental transforms" same as "versus CON" mental attacks have different mechanics from the vanilla variety.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Power Defense

 

I have seen this debate come up many times, often started by myself. I dislike Power Defense, since it seems to be entirely a rules construct and not a modeling tool.

Someone above mentioned that it has a unifying SFX of "I am hard to alter". I have to respectfully disagree. I have seen a Drain Dex and a drain running bought as making the ground below someone's feet slippery, or filling a room with marbles. Neither one alters the subject in any way.

 

I came up against this problem when designing the magic system for Savage Earth. All of the powers had a unifying special effect (altering someone's spiritual form to produce changes in their personality, shape, substance or ability to move.) To produce all these effects, I used drains, Aids, Transforms, Skill Levels, Extra Movement, and so on, and so on. To require a person to buy scads of different defenses to defend against what were essentially different applications of the exact same power seemed kludgy and expensive. In the end, I decided on Mental Defense as a blanket defense for the whole suite of powers. I could call it Spirit Defense I suppose, but it would have used the same construction, so I didn't see the need to change the name.

 

If I were running a Champions game instead of regular Hero, I might feel differently. Champions seems more predicated on the concept of Powers vs Powers. Weird and illogical constructs are common. I'd still want to slap a mandatory SFX on it, or require someone's Alteration power to have an alternate Defense, or reasonably common SFX that renders it useless.

 

Keith "sorry, just don't like universal Power Defense" Curtis

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Power Defense

 

The Grey Gargoyle (Transform) was able to transfrom Thor to stone' date=' but could only transform Iron Man's armor, not the man inside, to stone when he battled the Avengers. There's another one that no one seems to have an immunity to, but that has some limits. Mind you, I could chalk the IM thing up to artistic license in that Iron Man was every bit as helpless stuck in stone armor as he would have been transformed to stone.[/quote']

 

Grey Gargoyle's power, supposedly, only affects 'molecularly contiguous' matter, meaning that, supposedly, if he touched the handle of a standard ball-peen hammer, the handle would turn to stone but the head wouldn't. Naturally, not all writers or colorists remember this. If he grabbed Thor by his wrists, Thor (himself) and that wristband would have changed, but not the rest of his clothing or Mjolnir. BUT anyway ...

 

I have an old issue of Incredible Hulk, back during Acts of Vengeance, where the Grey Gargoyle used his petrifying touch on Bruce Banner. This was during the 'Grey Nocturnal Hulk' phase ... and once night rolled around, Banner *still* turned into the Hulk, who was still stone.

 

Then he started moving, albeit fairly slowly.

Hulk: "The Grey Gargoyle, huh? I've heard of you. You think you're hot stuff because you turn things to stone. But I've got a healing factor that shakes off funky transformations like yours." (very near-quote)

 

I'd definitely qualify the Hulk for Power Defense, personally. Alternately, the GM may have decided that since the Gargoyle's power did enough body to cover Banner's 8, but not Hulk's 15+, that Hulk was only 'partially transformed', I suppose ...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Power Defense

 

Someone above mentioned that it has a unifying SFX of "I am hard to alter". I have to respectfully disagree. I have seen a Drain Dex and a drain running bought as making the ground below someone's feet slippery' date=' or filling a room with marbles. Neither one alters the subject in any way.[/quote']

 

Probably irrelevant, but I, personally, would not buy either of those powers with Running Drain or DEX Drain. They both sound like Change Environment to me.

 

Alternately, I suppose you could buy them NND vs Clinging, Acrobatics roll, or the 'Supreme Balance' version of Environmental Movement.

[gojira]

Re: Power Defense

 

I've said everything I think I can, and I think everyone understands what my personal view point is. If you decide to tweak the rules anyway, hey I don't mind. Ultimately, and this is the point of my preface here, the important thing is to have fun. As long as the GM and player are enjoying themsleves, everything's cool.

 

I have seen a Drain Dex and a drain running bought as making the ground below someone's feet slippery' date=' or filling a room with marbles. Neither one alters the subject in any way.[/quote']

 

Hero isn't a 100% blank slate. There aren't always pure dice mechanics with no implied SFX. I think this may have been better as a Change Environment, rather than a Drain. Mechanically, it really is the environment that's being altered, not the player, and CE better reflects that. If CE wasn't quite what was desired, it should have been given a few custom lims or adv to massage it a bit.

 

To produce all these effects, I used drains, Aids, Transforms, Skill Levels, Extra Movement, and so on, and so on. To require a person to buy scads of different defenses to defend against what were essentially different applications of the exact same power seemed kludgy and expensive.

 

Here I think we are in agreement. These aren't fundamentally different powers to me, esp. if they are united by SFX. Buying scads of defenses is not fun and not Hero.

 

Still the only negative effects I see here are Drains and Transforms. I might have kept PowerD as the defense, and just called it Magic Resistance or Spirit Defense or whatever. Figure out the most common SFX, and assign that the base. Then when you have something totally off the wall (some completely different type of Drain, for example), then that gets the AVLD Advantage for your world, because it's off the wall.

 

Keith "sorry, just don't like universal Power Defense" Curtis

 

Now this, I don't get. Isn't that what Mental Defense is in your Savage World, a universal defense against all of the SFX related powers you mentioned? Or did I miss something?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defense

 

I have an old issue of Incredible Hulk, back during Acts of Vengeance, where the Grey Gargoyle used his petrifying touch on Bruce Banner. This was during the 'Grey Nocturnal Hulk' phase ... and once night rolled around, Banner *still* turned into the Hulk, who was still stone.

 

Then he started moving, albeit fairly slowly.

Hulk: "The Grey Gargoyle, huh? I've heard of you. You think you're hot stuff because you turn things to stone. But I've got a healing factor that shakes off funky transformations like yours." (very near-quote)

 

I'd definitely qualify the Hulk for Power Defense, personally. Alternately, the GM may have decided that since the Gargoyle's power did enough body to cover Banner's 8, but not Hulk's 15+, that Hulk was only 'partially transformed', I suppose ...

 

I'd be inclined to call that Hulk's regeneration powers kicking in and recovering the BOD from the transform, placing it in Hero terms.

[David Johnston]

Re: Power Defense

 

I have seen this debate come up many times, often started by myself. I dislike Power Defense, since it seems to be entirely a rules construct and not a modeling tool.

Someone above mentioned that it has a unifying SFX of "I am hard to alter". I have to respectfully disagree. I have seen a Drain Dex and a drain running bought as making the ground below someone's feet slippery, or filling a room with marbles. Neither one alters the subject in any way.

 

But of course those are both examples of just plain bad power selection. One of the problems with the design driven system of Hero is that you end up with people picking the wrong powers or wrong advantages and disadvantages to represent what they want to do. The problem with using a vanilla Dex drain to represent a slippery floor are that Power Defense shouldn't defend against it, not touching the floor should be a perfect defense against, and it should stop affecting any character who leaves the affected area. So obviously it's an continuing NND where the defense is not touching the affected area at least if you aren't using the upgunned Change Environment.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

Probably irrelevant, but I, personally, would not buy either of those powers with Running Drain or DEX Drain. They both sound like Change Environment to me.

 

They were pre 5th Edition when Change Enivorment couldn't have any combat effects.

 

Edit:Major combat effects I should say

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Power Defense

 

They were pre 5th Edition when Change Enivorment couldn't have any combat effects.

 

Edit:Major combat effects I should say

 

I still don't think I'd've used Drains, personally, but it's largely irrelevant to the conversation as a whole.

 

In HERO terms, G.G.'s transformation has an alternate 'healed by' of waiting an hour, so I dont' think Regen would have an effect on it, but anyway ...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Power Defense

 

They were pre 5th Edition when Change Enivorment couldn't have any combat effects.

 

Edit:Major combat effects I should say

 

So the rules have been fixed and the examples are now inappropriate?

 

Actually, it probably _should_ have been an NND even in 4th.

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

So the rules have been fixed and the examples are now inappropriate?

 

Actually, it probably _should_ have been an NND even in 4th.

 

Just pointing out why they were probably done the way they were. Offically, I no longer have a dog in this fight. I've decided how I want univeral Power Defense to work in most of my games.

[CBikle]

Re: Power Defense

 

I've never seen universal Power Defense as a problem in any game I've run or played in.

 

Players don't usually try to buy Power Defense until their character has a REALLY bad experience with an adjustment power.

 

When players have initially bought it, it's never been more than 5 pts. (usually the only characters to have more than this are big uber-villain types who are given blanket amounts of every defense type so they can go the distance with PC teams).

 

Breaking down Power Defense into multiple SFX categories just seems like an excuse for GMs to put their own "stamp" on the mechanics.

 

Overthinking and overcomplicating things unnecessarily.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Power Defense

 

Players don't usually try to buy Power Defense until their character has a REALLY bad experience with an adjustment power.

I've never seen a player not want to buy Power Defense (and go so far as to beg for it) after a bad experience with an Adjustment Power or Transform or similar. I've seen the same responce with Flash attacks as well, and to a lesser extent, Mental Attacks (but for some reason, many players seem to be okay betting Ego Attacked or Mind Controlled but not having their STR drop by 10 points).

[Lucius]

Re: Power Defense

 

I've never seen universal Power Defense as a problem in any game I've run or played in.

 

Players don't usually try to buy Power Defense until their character has a REALLY bad experience with an adjustment power.

 

When players have initially bought it, it's never been more than 5 pts. (usually the only characters to have more than this are big uber-villain types who are given blanket amounts of every defense type so they can go the distance with PC teams).

 

Breaking down Power Defense into multiple SFX categories just seems like an excuse for GMs to put their own "stamp" on the mechanics.

 

Overthinking and overcomplicating things unnecessarily.

 

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on your analysis of motivations here.

 

While I don't (repeat, do NOT) endorse their view myself, I perfectly understand those who think a "Universal" Power Defense is hard to justify in terms of SFX. In their view it's rather like buying a Dispel or Suppress vs, say, Force Field, that would take down a psionic's telekinetic shield, a mutant's magnetic force field, and a supertech battlesuit's personal protective inertia dampener, but would not effect a mage's shield spell bought as Armor with END only to cast and continuing charges (even though it has special effects basically like a force field) or the same magnetic mutant's Force Walls. I believe such a Dispel would be legal under the rules, and perhaps not even "unbalancing" as such, but it sure looks and acts weird and is hard to explain coherently.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Did I describe the palindromedary?

[nexus]

Re: Power Defense

 

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on your analysis of motivations here.

 

While I don't (repeat, do NOT) endorse their view myself, I perfectly understand those who think a "Universal" Power Defense is hard to justify in terms of SFX. In their view it's rather like buying a Dispel or Suppress vs, say, Force Field, that would take down a psionic's telekinetic shield, a mutant's magnetic force field, and a supertech battlesuit's personal protective inertia dampener, but would not effect a mage's shield spell bought as Armor with END only to cast and continuing charges (even though it has special effects basically like a force field) or the same magnetic mutant's Force Walls. I believe such a Dispel would be legal under the rules, and perhaps not even "unbalancing" as such, but it sure looks and acts weird and is hard to explain coherently.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Did I describe the palindromedary?

 

Pretty much at least for me. I have no desire to put my "stamp" on the mechanics (I'm not even sure exactly what means) or "overthink" things. Most of the time Univeral Power Defense doesn't make sene to me so I'll generally require a special effects limitation to be taken on it as well as avoiding Adjustment powers as much as possible (someinthing I did anyway). If a player has a convincing reason for Univeral Power Defense, they can have it but its like any other power, I'm not going to approve just "because". I'd require similar things of any defense that didn't a cover its entire blanket effect. Just that, as far I'm concnered, its "harder" to come up with a type of Power Defense that does so, at least for many concepts.

 

As far I'm concerned its like any other House Rule. I respect that people don't share my views, but I hardly think I'm playing "Wrong".

[tesuji]

Re: Power Defense

 

Breaking down Power Defense into multiple SFX categories just seems like an excuse for GMs to put their own "stamp" on the mechanics.

 

FWIW, i consider GMs wanting to "put their stamp" on game rules to be a good thing and think it would be better if more did it or at least accepted it as normal.

 

I view RPG rules as, at their best, akin to a meal bought out, usually fast food level quality.

 

After purcahse, its up to you to take the "make to suit your taste" by adding salt pepper catsup, hot peppers, grated cheese and the like to best match the tastes of you and your friends.

 

A published RPG doesn't know you, doesn't know your players, doesn't know the specific game/campaign/setting you are running, doesn't know your specific PCs and their backgrounds and doesn't know the story and theme you will be using... you do.

 

Sure, you can decide "i will make/force all those local specifics things fit the published material" and indeed many Gms do just that. But you also can decide to take that published material amd make it fit into all that specific local info too, tweaking here, bending there, etc.

 

I find the latter to produce better results overall, in my experience.

 

So yeah, pretty much for several decades now, i have been putting my stamp, or spraying, on any RPG ruleset i run and am darn glad i did. if a player wants a strictly-by-the-book game, there are certainly other Gms he can seek out for that.