Equillibrium via Dark Champions

[Remjin]

Hello everyone, recently watched Equillibrium again and was thinking... how would you represent something like the Gun Kata skills? Would you make good use of skills and combat options or would you use powers?

 

I'd love to see how you'd represent it, as I like some of the concepts therein, and it makes for great visuals in any case.

 

I tried the powers route for a Champions game via Energy Blast, Radius, No Range, Hole in the Middle... OAF, Gestures. =) I'd like a better way of doing it if possible.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Depends. Most of it is Martial Arts. That MA happens to include WF: Firearms to represent various manuevers. Inability to be hit? Basic DCV, only for gunfighting. Ability to hit & wound? CSLs. Then the rest of it is gadgets & melee weapons.

[Remjin]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Depends. Most of it is Martial Arts. That MA happens to include WF: Firearms to represent various manuevers. Inability to be hit? Basic DCV' date=' only for gunfighting. Ability to hit & wound? CSLs. Then the rest of it is gadgets & melee weapons.[/quote']

 

But how are all the area effect attacks done? High speed and combat sense or something?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Which effect attacks are you referring too? I've seen the film... two, three times? Most of it I recall as being a lot of gunfighting, CSLs and melee combat. If you can tell me what you're looking for, I'd be happy to help model it.

[Remjin]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

I guess, really, the only thing I'm really looking for is the signature gun kata deal where he stands in the middle of a bunch of guys and shoots them all while throwing his guns around himself. =)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

That's a special effect. He just has a massive bunch of Combat Levels, only for gunfighting, etc. & so forth. You can build it as a special effect of a Martial Dodge (Gun Kata) if you so choose, as well, but it's more accurate (considering the brother just STANDS THERE) that he isn't "dodging" but his ability is to anticipate fire.

 

HEY! Fire Anticipation! +CSLs, Only with an INT roll (-3/4), Only for Gunfighting. Then you just build each CSL in as you need too.

[DEFCON Clown]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Susano wrote up John Preston a while back, he's a link to the character.

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsmovie/johnpreston.html

[Remjin]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Cool, thanks guys, much appreciated. =)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

I guess' date=' really, the only thing I'm really looking for is the signature gun kata deal where he stands in the middle of a bunch of guys and shoots them all while throwing his guns around himself. =)[/quote']

This could also be done as a Naked Advantage superskill...there are many examples in Dark Champions that would work.

 

My first impression when I saw this move was something on the order of a Selective AOE radius (doesn't have to be huge, as he only seems to pull this particular trick at practical pistol combat ranges...around 15 meters or so), possibly also Autofire or Continuous.

[Dog Soldier]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

IIRC the explanation given in the movie was that all the angles for any combat situation could be assessed scientifically. The "Gun Kata" is simply the exercise of the form that results from this knowledge. The more advanced the pracitioner the higher level kata he'd know and the more the problems would be that much easier to solve. I view this as the moviemaker being somewhat boneheaded about what a kata is for unarmed martial arts and inappropriately applying that incorrect view on firearms.

 

By way of example, I'm a 3rd degree black belt. My current poomsae is Chung San. There are applications for the terchniques in that form but it is insane for anyone to believe that I could do it and somehow my opponents would be in the right place at the right time.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Here is a more "super" version:

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/characterfiles/npcs/gunmanandchrysalis.html

 

If you wanted to do it w/o using AoE's and what not you'd need a lot of Autofire, OCV levels, and all the Autofire skills.

 

In the end, an AoE Rad No Range w/ Selective is in its way more elegant though.

[Remjin]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

By way of example' date=' I'm a 3rd degree black belt. My current [i']poomsae[/i] is Chung San. There are applications for the terchniques in that form but it is insane for anyone to believe that I could do it and somehow my opponents would be in the right place at the right time.

 

The idea behind "kata" or any kinds of forms training isn't that a bunch of idiots are going to line up and fall into the attacks as scripted. The idea behind forms practice is that you learn skills, be able to chain them together, and then learn the concepts behind them so that you can apply the principles of the techniques to fighting and be able to flow from one principle/technique to another. Thus forms teach you proper movement from one position to another, how to apply power in transition, etc.

 

You're doing a korean martial art, right? From the names, it sounds like it. Probably Tae Kwon Doe, but maybe Tang Soo Do or Hapkido? When you learned the outside knife-hand block (no idea what korean name for it is), you were probably taught the technique while in a T-stance (sorry if I'm butchering the nomenclature) and to throw the technique from your opposite shoulder outward and out with your knuckles around eye-level. (I know this is a simple example, but I don't want to confuse things.) A simple, very useful technique. In application, you don't always bring your hand to your left shoulder, as you may be transitioning, in another position, coming into it from a spinning hook kick, or whatever... and you won't always use it at eye level. You'll use it at whatever level you need, you'll shorten it if you have to, or extend it, etc. The application of forms to fighting is similar. As things become more and more advanced, their use and their variation mark deeper understanding... and the longer it takes to understand and use them.. and at their core, all of them will simply use the basic principles you learned during your first couple of years at a more refined level.

 

I say this from over 16 years of martial arts experience, some practical use of those techniques, and a few years of teaching. Sorry, I can't name a belt, we didn't use them, but the few tournaments and such I participated in I was entered into black belt and masters level, and if I may toot my own horn, I almost always earned gold (not real, just the fakie trash), and if not gold, then silver. Which, btw, is cheesy, and no these weren't huge tournaments so its not that much of an accomplishment. I like to think of myself as "competent" at best, not good.

 

...and I also apologize for the rather long remark. I don't mean to sound like an "expert," or some authority, I'm just another student that wanted to say something about formswork. Having worked on one set, or form, for 9 years and still learning from it. (and yes, I've learned others, but I practice any that I have learned for the style I settled on.)

[Dog Soldier]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Your take on my martial arts is correct and I agree with you about the role of forms. However the explanation in the movie for GunKata is not in line with why a martial artist learns a form. The Clerics can pop into a room blind and do their stuff because the GunKata is 'magic'. It's a fun movie to watch but it goes way past Hong Kong Action Theater in terms of realism.

[Remjin]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Your take on my martial arts is correct and I agree with you about the role of forms. However the explanation in the movie for GunKata is not in line with why a martial artist learns a form. The Clerics can pop into a room blind and do their stuff because the GunKata is 'magic'. It's a fun movie to watch but it goes way past Hong Kong Action Theater in terms of realism.

Who watches movies for realism?

 

I didn't think it was magic... they seemed to explain it as a form of pseudo-science w/ a misconception about martial forms as well. *shrug* The gun-katas just seemed like a vague explanation for a guy to kick butt with two pistols to me. Kind of a high tech homage to John Woo. hehe.

 

My reply wasn't really to refute the movie logic as to refute the particular statement in that post. Which, I guess, was my version of "missing the point."

[Checkmate]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Well coming from a more practical application of fighting techniques. I'm in the military assigned to a Security Force. They send us to schools to learn how to defend ourselves. From what we were taught (and all the instructors were ex-Navy Seals, Marine Rcon, SWAT, ATF, people that have been doing this stuff for more years than a lot of have been alive) about 85% of all street fights start with a right hook. The first thing an untrained or slightly trained fighter wants to do is take you out hard. Most people are right handed, hence the right hook. Now that I pretty much know what the attackers first attack will be, I have the edge.

 

Take the same concept "Hollywood" it, and apply it to a gun fight. It even said in the movie it was all probability. You have the highest probability of avoiding return fire if you are here, or the highest probability of a kill shot if you shoot here first ect.

 

Back to the OP:

I believe Combat Sense only works for HtH, so you'd have to use spatial awareness or the like, then if you didn't want to use AoE, go with Autofire and the Autofire skils. Remember though in that scene the guys he was fighting did fire back, so he didn't kill them all in the first phase. That means it probably wasn't an AoE.

[Dog Soldier]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Thinking about it, and a little bit off the topic, there are in fact firearm equivalents to Kata. the Presidente, the Demi-Prez, the Dozier Drill. Guatamalan Table Exercise, Breakfast at Garcias. These are just a few aoof the top of my head. All have a set piece scenario to be dealt with in a particular mannner.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

IIRC the explanation given in the movie was that all the angles for any combat situation could be assessed scientifically. The "Gun Kata" is simply the exercise of the form that results from this knowledge. The more advanced the pracitioner the higher level kata he'd know and the more the problems would be that much easier to solve. I view this as the moviemaker being somewhat boneheaded about what a kata is for unarmed martial arts and inappropriately applying that incorrect view on firearms.

 

By way of example, I'm a 3rd degree black belt. My current poomsae is Chung San. There are applications for the terchniques in that form but it is insane for anyone to believe that I could do it and somehow my opponents would be in the right place at the right time.

 

Totally with you on this. While I enjoyed the dystopian style of the movie and was entertained, the gun kata concept was ludicrous. The only time I saw anything remotely cool was the "slap gun" fight near the end where it was up close and personal and the opponents were keeping eachother from getting a shot on them. Silly, but no sillier than most movie martial arts fights.

 

Also, the "predict every angle" crap shows a poor sense of physics and total lack of any understanding of chaos theory/based on initial conditions. The idea that "science" can predict exactly anything so complex and chaotic as a mass gunfight is just hooey.

 

I hate when movies or comics throw out the word "science" as an explanation for whatever ridiculous concept they want to show. It makes the word science mean nothing more than "magic."

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Well, obviously you are familiar with the axiom any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic.

 

 

Who cares if it was "real" or not? It's fiction and thus it's only real mandate is to entertain.

 

It was a cool shtick and no more or less ridiculous than other "im a bad-@$$" shticks such as the Force, Wuxia, mutant superpowers, cosmic rays, radioactive spiders, or what have you.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Well, obviously you are familiar with the axiom any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic.

 

 

Who cares if it was "real" or not? It's fiction and thus it's only real mandate is to entertain.

 

It was a cool shtick and no more or less ridiculous than other "im a bad-@$$" shticks such as the Force, Wuxia, mutant superpowers, cosmic rays, radioactive spiders, or what have you.

 

 

Always looking to pick a fight, eh Killer?

 

Obviously I care if it was "real"... at least real enough. Entertainment requires verisimilitude and throwing the word "science" around like that ruins any versimilitude for me.

 

Many of the shticks you state above bug me as well. Force, Wuxia... no problem... that is a form of "magic" and isn't really looking to explain anything. The whole mutant superpowers, cosmic rays and such... that does bug me. As an uninformed 12 year old... these ideas made sense... but as I learn how things really work, I lose tolerance for ignorance on a subject. We know that cosmic ray bombardment causes ugly, cancerous death, not superpowers. Comics have moved away from "random radiation as origin story" because the larger culture doesn't "but it" any more.

 

Think of it this way... if a character justified superpowers by saying, "Because I drive a car every day!" we'd all be like, "How stupid is that?" Our life experience shows us that driving a car doesn't give us superpowers and we wouldn't buy it. OTOH, find some lost tribe of people without experience of modern technology and show them a car and driver and they might very well accept the idea of such a marvel granting super powers.

 

Even with my limited martial arts, gun and science experience... I recognize the lack of feasibility of the gun kata concept and it wrecks my entertainment to have it passed off as "science." There is enough common knowledge in society on these topice to make the gun kata mcguffin less than ideal as the "badass justification" for a movie. At least IMO.

 

Same way the old "Heisenberg Compensators" made me groan on Star Trek. It is clever (the first time) in a "wink, wink" kind of way... but it ain't science.

 

It bugged me as it did Dog Soldier... I posted in agreement. Why you seem to want to actively attack my posts with such hostility, I have no idea.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

I think I'd spot Violet, from Ultraviolet, a slight edge on John Preston--he's probably got a level or two on her, but her stats are probably slightly higher, giving her the edge overall. Plus she has nigh-infinite bullets.

 

The two of them together would slay mooks by the thousands...

[bwdemon]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

As much as I hate to say this, wouldn't the Speed Zone be a good way to handle the gun kata on a really powerful level?

 

Another option from the powered side of things might include an AOE Radius naked advantage for up to 3d6+1 RKA, no range, selective, each target uses one charge.

 

The standard ranged martial arts rules ("Zen Riflery") would be a given, of course, regardless of whether you wanted to work portions of it as a skill or a power.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Always looking to pick a fight, eh Killer?

 

Obviously I care if it was "real"... at least real enough. Entertainment requires verisimilitude and throwing the word "science" around like that ruins any versimilitude for me.

 

Many of the shticks you state above bug me as well. Force, Wuxia... no problem... that is a form of "magic" and isn't really looking to explain anything. The whole mutant superpowers, cosmic rays and such... that does bug me. As an uninformed 12 year old... these ideas made sense... but as I learn how things really work, I lose tolerance for ignorance on a subject. We know that cosmic ray bombardment causes ugly, cancerous death, not superpowers. Comics have moved away from "random radiation as origin story" because the larger culture doesn't "but it" any more.

 

Think of it this way... if a character justified superpowers by saying, "Because I drive a car every day!" we'd all be like, "How stupid is that?" Our life experience shows us that driving a car doesn't give us superpowers and we wouldn't buy it. OTOH, find some lost tribe of people without experience of modern technology and show them a car and driver and they might very well accept the idea of such a marvel granting super powers.

 

Even with my limited martial arts, gun and science experience... I recognize the lack of feasibility of the gun kata concept and it wrecks my entertainment to have it passed off as "science." There is enough common knowledge in society on these topice to make the gun kata mcguffin less than ideal as the "badass justification" for a movie. At least IMO.

 

Same way the old "Heisenberg Compensators" made me groan on Star Trek. It is clever (the first time) in a "wink, wink" kind of way... but it ain't science.

 

It bugged me as it did Dog Soldier... I posted in agreement. Why you seem to want to actively attack my posts with such hostility, I have no idea.

Wow, overreact much? I think you're projecting; there was no hostility, it was just another point of view.

 

Obviously if you are holding fiction to some elevated expectation of realism you probably are not the ideal target market and should maybe just not waste your time on things that are very likely going to irritate you.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Obviously if you are holding fiction to some elevated expectation of realism you probably are not the ideal target market and should maybe just not waste your time on things that are very likely going to irritate you.

 

Yep. Repped.

[Checkmate]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Always looking to pick a fight, eh Killer?

 

Obviously I care if it was "real"... at least real enough. Entertainment requires verisimilitude and throwing the word "science" around like that ruins any versimilitude for me.

 

Many of the shticks you state above bug me as well. Force, Wuxia... no problem... that is a form of "magic" and isn't really looking to explain anything. The whole mutant superpowers, cosmic rays and such... that does bug me. As an uninformed 12 year old... these ideas made sense... but as I learn how things really work, I lose tolerance for ignorance on a subject. We know that cosmic ray bombardment causes ugly, cancerous death, not superpowers. Comics have moved away from "random radiation as origin story" because the larger culture doesn't "but it" any more.

 

Think of it this way... if a character justified superpowers by saying, "Because I drive a car every day!" we'd all be like, "How stupid is that?" Our life experience shows us that driving a car doesn't give us superpowers and we wouldn't buy it. OTOH, find some lost tribe of people without experience of modern technology and show them a car and driver and they might very well accept the idea of such a marvel granting super powers.

 

Even with my limited martial arts, gun and science experience... I recognize the lack of feasibility of the gun kata concept and it wrecks my entertainment to have it passed off as "science." There is enough common knowledge in society on these topice to make the gun kata mcguffin less than ideal as the "badass justification" for a movie. At least IMO.

 

Same way the old "Heisenberg Compensators" made me groan on Star Trek. It is clever (the first time) in a "wink, wink" kind of way... but it ain't science.

 

It bugged me as it did Dog Soldier... I posted in agreement. Why you seem to want to actively attack my posts with such hostility, I have no idea.

 

Well I've never attacked your posts (that I can recall) and I would have said pretty much the same thing KS did. I would add that the gun Kata is ABSOLUTELY science, because what is science really? All it is is probability. Can you prove scientifically 100% that the sun will rise tomorrow? The answer is obviously not. However the probability of it rising is near 100%. Scientists will tell you ANYTHING is possible, it is the probability of it happening that they study. The Chaos Theory has as much relevance in this topic as it did in Jurassic Park.

 

The movie even said it's probability. I've given you an example in my previous post, how even today people learning how to fight learn about the probablility of an opponent doing a certain thing when faced with certain options. While this was taken to the extreme in this movie, it is no where near as rediculous as comic book "science".

[Dog Soldier]

Re: Equillibrium via Dark Champions

 

Umm, no. GunKata is in fact Comic Book science on par with Radioactive Spiders that bite people and give them Spider powers. I think the very fact that no one has yet been quite able to write up a decent build for it is telling. If you're dealing with a Cleric then the only defense I can imagine is invulnerability to gunfire.